What does it mean to say that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever (Hebrews 13:8)?

greyhawk.444 · Jul 30, 2017

Hank77 said:
Exactly. That is why I questioned what the OP said.

It doesn't matter, but the same principle still applies today as it did 2,000 years ago at the time of Jesus in the 1st century Roman Empire - Those who have conspired to kill the End Times Jesus are guilty of mortal sins, which need to be punished according to the law of Scripture (Exodus 20:5; Numbers 14:18).

Hank77 · Jul 30, 2017

greyhawk.444 said:
But that doesn't mean to say that repentance would always save you since you don't know if it would be accepted or not - God has the final say as to whether you will be saved or not (Romans 9:16) - But you can't "comeback" after committing blasphemy of the holy spirit, which is an eternal sin (Mark 3:28-30; Matthew 12:31-32).

I do know that if I sincerely repent that God forgives me and will not send me to hell. He made a promise and I believe Him.
Rom 9:16 so, then--not of him who is willing, nor of him who is running, but of God who is doing kindness:
No I cannot by my will, will myself to eternal life. All I can do is obey God by believing everything that Jesus was, said, and did, and obey God in all things. And if I sin, repent and .....
1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things I write to you, that ye may not sin: and if any one may sin, an advocate we have with the Father, Jesus Christ, a righteous one,
1Jn 2:2 and he--he is a propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world,

I cannot gain eternal life by running/working, such as Esau pleased his father Issac. Obviously, that didn't work, as Jacob inherited.
Eph 2:6 and did raise us up together, and did seat us together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 that He might show, in the ages that are coming, the exceeding riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:8 for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you--of God the gift,
Eph 2:9 not of works, that no one may boast;
Eph 2:10 for of Him we are workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God did before prepare, that in them we may walk.

Hank77 · Jul 30, 2017

greyhawk.444 said:
It doesn't matter, but the same principle still applies today as it did 2,000 years ago at the time of Jesus in the 1st century Roman Empire - Those who have conspired to kill the End Times Jesus are guilty of mortal sins, which need to be punished according to the law of Scripture (Exodus 20:5; Numbers 14:18).

The End Times, Jesus?

greyhawk.444 · Jul 30, 2017

yeshuaslavejeff said:
This is entirely too wishy-washy ...

YHWH is Perfect in Judgment, there is no iniquity at all in Him, nor in His Judgment, on earth and in heaven and under the earth , eternally, forever.

According to Exodus 12:29 God killed all the Egyptian firstborn in response to the genocide of the Hebrews in Exodus 1:22.

Now, We know that Pharaoh commanded his people to kill every male Hebrew at birth, so that *most* of the Egyptians would've been complicit in the genocide, but not all of the Firstborn would've been guilty e.g. Babies and young children; the old, senile, and infirm; mentally and physically handicapped people - But God still killed all the Firstborn Egyptians as even the allegedly 'innocent' would've still been "guilty by association" with the crimes of their fellow countrymen - Which implies that God has discretionary powers to kill (or punish) those who are allegedly 'innocent', and to kill as few, or as many of them as he sees fit.

Although we know that *most* of the Egyptians were de facto complicit in the genocide (Exodus 1:22) God killed Only the firstborn, but not the second or third born etc - Which implies that God has discretionary powers to absolve anyone who is guilty, (or at least not to punish them), and to absolve as few, or as many as he sees fit.

Nothing wishy-washy at all....This is entirely consistent with Exodus 12:29 and a necessary inference if you analyse it correctly.

greyhawk.444 · Jul 30, 2017

Hank77 said:
The End Times, Jesus?

The Lamb or Lion of Judah, who is known as the Second Coming of Christ - The return of Christ has been prophesied many times in the New Testament, especially the Book of Revelation.

greyhawk.444 · Jul 30, 2017

Hank77 said:
What chief priest and elders were Christens? What Christians tried to kill Jesus?

"Chief priests and elders of Christendom" is simply an adjective to describe Western leaders (of the End Times), such as Donald Trump, Barack Obama, George Bush, HM Elizabeth II, Margaret Thatcher, Tony Blair, David Cameron, Teresa May, Pope Francis and his Vatican cohort etc - Along with all their nondescript supporters - Covert operations by Western Intelligence - who have made the conspiracy bear fruition.

Hank77 · Jul 30, 2017

greyhawk.444 said:
Although we know that *most* of the Egyptians were de facto complicit in the genocide (Exodus 1:22) God killed Only the firstborn, but not the second or third born etc - Which implies that God has discretionary powers to absolve anyone who is guilty, (or at least not to punish them), and to absolve as few, or as many as he sees fit.

Because God chooses to take a life from this earth, even an innocent baby's life, does not imply that they do not receive eternal life. David knew that his son could not return to him on this earth, but David also knew that he would go to his son at his physical death.

Hank77 · Jul 30, 2017

greyhawk.444 said:
The Lamb or Lion of Judah, who is known as the Second Coming of Christ - The return of Christ has been prophesied many times in the New Testament, especially the Book of Revelation.

That is not a different End Times Jesus. That is the very same Jesus. To call Him the end times Jesus makes no sense. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
Who do you think brought the destruction on Jerusalem in 70 AD?
Luk 21:20 `And when ye may see Jerusalem surrounded by encampments, then know that come nigh did her desolation;
Luk 21:21 then those in Judea, let them flee to the mountains; and those in her midst, let them depart out; and those in the countries, let them not come in to her;
Luk 21:22 because these are days of vengeance, to fulfil all things that have been written.

Hank77 · Jul 30, 2017

greyhawk.444 said:
"Chief priests and elders of Christendom" is simply an adjective to describe Western leaders (of the End Times), such as Donald Trump, Barack Obama, George Bush, HM Elizabeth II, Margaret Thatcher, Tony Blair, David Cameron, Teresa May, Pope Francis and his Vatican cohort etc - Along with all their nondescript supporters - Covert operations by Western Intelligence - who have made the conspiracy bear fruition.

Oh my goodness. So what you are professing cannot be supported by any scripture. :sigh:

Have a nice evening. :wave:

greyhawk.444 · Jul 30, 2017

Hank77 said:
Because God chooses to take a life from this earth, even an innocent baby's life, does not imply that they do not receive eternal life. David knew that his son could not return to him on this earth, but David also knew that he would go to his son at his physical death.

Right, those who receive Eternal life are washed in the blood of Christ who have been mentioned in Revelation 7:9-14.

Prior to this, there are 2 different judgements:-

(1) Judgement of the *flesh*, or Judgement by fire on the earth (Revelation 20:9) followed by the (2) Final Judgement which will take place in heaven (Revelation 20:15; 21:8) - But in any case, both (1) and (2) would still operate according to the same principles which God demonstrated in Exodus 12:29 - That is, he can still draw an arbitrary line anywhere he sees fit to condemn those who are allegedly 'innocent' - But they are not really 'innocent' as such, as everyone is still guilty by association with the crimes of their own race, tribe or ethnicity - Whilst also allow those who are guilty to escape punishment - And he can do either to as few, or as many people as he sees fit.

Whether spiritual or physical this same principle would still apply as we have seen in the example of Exodus 12:29 - God has prerogative powers to destroy an enemy, either spiritually or physically, or both.

That God has taken an innocent child's life is no guarantee that its soul will go to heaven.

Also, you might be one of those who are saved in Revelation 7:9, but it's no guarantee that your physical lineage would survive the Coming Judgement by fire (Revelation 20:9) - Since Judgement of the flesh (Revelation 20:9) will precede Judgement of the Spirit, which will take place in heaven (Revelation 20:15; 21:8) - Thus, although connected they are distinct and separate, like comparing apples and oranges.

So although "Every tribe" would be represented in the spiritual afterlife (Revelation 7:9) God would still have free rein to wipe out an entire race of people according to Revelation 20:9 - Since there is no proscription on genocide according to Scripture, because God can draw an arbitrary line anywhere he wants and he can limit (or reduce) the size of racial populations to suit his purpose (Exodus 12:29).

Lastly, Not every tribe would be equally numbered nor equally represented in the spiritual afterlife (Revelation 7:9) - Since God can draw the line wherever he wants and so he has prerogative powers to adjust the kill/survival rate to suit his purpose (Exodus 12:29).

greyhawk.444 · Aug 5, 2017

Hank77 said:
Why do you say Christendom? What Christian took part in trying to kill Jesus?

"Murder" can be figurative, it doesn't have to be de facto "Murder in a literal sense".

Figurative could mean character assassination, attempting to ruin a person's reputation by assigning them a status which they don't want, or dispossession of another person's property as in the case of David's murder of Uriah the Hititte in order to forcibly take his wife etc.

"Murder" can be figurative because you have ruined (or tried to ruin) another person's life, and it doesn't have to be de facto "Murder in a literal sense".

Hank77 said:
Where is your scripture that says God doesn't forgive murder, etc.? He obviously does or David and, according to you, his descendants for three to four generations are in hell.
Have I gotten that right?

False. God will by no means clear those who are guilty according to Numbers 14:18.

Although God showed mercy by not killing David he still punished him by killing four of his sons in return for his Murder of Uriah the Hittite.

The evidence of Scripture is irrefutable and there's no way that you can get away Scot-free if you have conspired against Jesus in anyway, shape or form.

greyhawk.444 · Aug 5, 2017

Hank77 said:
No, David is not in hell. If he is, so is his first born son. But more importantly is that God called David His Beloved after this incident took place and God continued to bless him throughout his life. David sincerely repented and God forgave him.

False.

God's forgiveness is only real in relative terms, but Not in absolute terms - Although God did not punish David by killing him He still claimed the lives of his four sons in his place.

By commuting the death penalty for David God still required that David be punished by killing his four sons - Now, you see that the alternative punishment is still very severe.

greyhawk.444 · Aug 5, 2017

Hank77 said:
Sorry, God forgave David. And I'm sorry that doesn't fit your sense of justice, but God is sovereign, need I remind you, and knows a man's heart and mind. His justice is ALWAYS just.

Wrong. God did not forgive David entirely since he killed David's four sons, and he told David why he would be punished.

Hank77 said:
Does God send a repentant man or woman to hell. NO. I do I know, because He said so.

False.

Again, God did not forgive David entirely since he killed David's four sons, whilst allowing David to live.

Hank77 · Aug 5, 2017

greyhawk.444 said:
False.

God's forgiveness is only real in relative terms, but Not in absolute terms - Although God did not punish David by killing him He still claimed the lives of his four sons in his place.

By commuting the death penalty for David God still required that David be punished by killing his four sons - Now, you see that the alternative punishment is still very severe.

Excuse me but where did I say there was no penalty? Just the death of his first born was a penalty.
Absolute that David was forgiven, he did not loose his salvation.

greyhawk.444 · Aug 5, 2017

Hank77 said:
Excuse me but where did I say there was no penalty? Just the death of his first born was a penalty.
Absolute that David was forgiven, he did not loose his salvation.

To be saved at all God requires a certain penalty or punishment as a means of Restitution to reinstate one's good standing with his Maker.

Thus, the Bible is a constant reminder that "Vengeance is the Lord God" (Deuteronomy 32:35; Romans 12:19) - God requires vengeance or restitution to restore the Transgressor's relationship with him.

This applies not only to one person, but to all of you (John 11:48-51; Matthew 27:20).

greyhawk.444 · Aug 6, 2017

Hank77 said:
Because God chooses to take a life from this earth, even an innocent baby's life, does not imply that they do not receive eternal life. David knew that his son could not return to him on this earth, but David also knew that he would go to his son at his physical death.

But according to Ezekiel 18:4 and Romans 6:23 the wages of sin is death, or the one who sins will die; but it doesn't specify that it Must be death of one's physical body - This means that the punishment could also entail Eternal (spiritual) death instead of death of one's physical body. Or it might be both if the person concerned doesn't repent.

Neither, spiritual nor physical death have been specified in the above passages, which means that God would still have free rein to choose either one (or choose both for those who have not/will not repent).

So the penalty can be relatively severe - Since death of the flesh body is relatively superficial by comparison with eternal death in the lake of fire - to extremely severe in the case of losing a loved one for all eternity.

So if God hasn't yet killed any loved ones and it doesn't seem likely to happen anytime soon you can be almost certain that he has a far stiffer penalty which lies in stall for somebody whom you love - Since the penalty must be paid sooner or later, according to Numbers 14:18; Ezekiel 18:4 and Romans 6:23.

greyhawk.444 · Aug 6, 2017

Hank77 said:
Excuse me but where did I say there was no penalty? Just the death of his first born was a penalty.
Absolute that David was forgiven, he did not loose his salvation.

False.

In addition to death of his firstborn God also inflicted further punishment on David:-

2 Samuel 12

10 "Now therefore, the sword shall never depart from your house, because you have despised Me, and have taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your wife.’ 11 Thus says the Lord: ‘Behold, I will raise up adversity against you from your own house; and I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this sun."

Very severe penalties indeed for a Tyrant, murderer, and sinner who was allegedly forgiven by his God.

Hank77 · Aug 6, 2017

greyhawk.444 said:
False.

In addition to death of his firstborn God also inflicted further punishment on David:-

2 Samuel 12

10 "Now therefore, the sword shall never depart from your house, because you have despised Me, and have taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your wife.’ 11 Thus says the Lord: ‘Behold, I will raise up adversity against you from your own house; and I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this sun."

Very severe penalties indeed for a Tyrant, murderer, and sinner who was allegedly forgiven by his God.

Please read carefully. "'Just the death of his first born was A penalty." Nowhere did I say that it was the ONLY penalty. My point was that there was a penalty in this world for what he did. That does not mean the David lost his salvation or that his dead son was not accepted by God. David repented, believed by faith, God gave him grace, and forgave him.

greyhawk.444 · Aug 9, 2017

Hank77 said:
My point was that there was a penalty in this world for what he did.

God has demonstrated that he can kill the flesh of innocent people whilst they are still alive on the earth (Exodus 12:29), so there is no reason to suppose that he can't do the same to 'innocent' souls on the day of judgement. There is no reason to suppose that physical or spiritual death could not be inflicted by using the same rules which God has demonstrated in Exodus 12:29 - That innocent people can still be slain for his purpose regardless of their innocence.

Exodus 12:29 serves to illustrate the fact that "Eternal death in the lake of fire" would still operate according to the same rules as "God inflicting physical death of people who are still alive on the earth".

Unless of course, you can present some form of counter argument to refute this based on Scripture....

Hank77 said:
That does not mean the David lost his salvation or that his dead son was not accepted by God. David repented, believed by faith, God gave him grace, and forgave him.

Firstly, your assertion is based on God's new covenant with Christians which he promised in 1 John 1:9 - But this is not the Only promise that he made with Christians - Since, he also promised that he would have mercy on whom ever he wants, and compassion on whom ever he wants (Romans 9:15) - Basically, it means that God is still sovereign in regards to your salvation because your salvation does not depend on human will or exertion (Nor repentance), but it depends on God who has mercy (Romans 9:16).

Therefore, God can ignore what he allegedly promised in 1 John 1:9 since it is presumed that his counter promise is more important, and should therefore take priority over John - God can still do this without being called a "liar", since he is still bound by what he also pledged in Romans 9:15, 16.

There is no contradiction here, anymore so than "God contradicting himself" in regards to Ezekiel 18:20 - That the son will not suffer on account of his father's iniquity (Vice Versa) - versus Exodus 20:5 and Numbers 14:18 - That God would still punish YOUR children on account of YOUR iniquity.

There is no contradiction if you understand that God can apply whichever rule he wants to suit his purpose - Since, either rule would be correct according to Scripture - Whichever rule is more important would depend entirely on the situation, but only God has the right to make that choice.

Secondly, David is a case in point, but YOU are not David and God doesn't have to forgive you as he forgave David - Since, the outcome of His judgment could've gone either way - Based on the premise that Romans 9:15, 16 can be more or less important than 1 John 1:9, which only God can decide.

That, God saw fit to forgive David and accept his child does not imply that he would do the same to everyone.

Hank77 · Aug 9, 2017

greyhawk.444 said:
That, God saw fit to forgive David and accept his child does not imply that he would do the same to everyone.

I know how these types of supposed debates go. Debating scripture is for learning not for a competition and not for making accusations.
So if it will make you happy consider yourself the winner and have a nice day.

What does it mean to say that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever (Hebrews 13:8)?

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