Why you should pray to JESUS

CrystalDragon said:

That's okay about not seeing my response, I think there's something screwey with the notification system here, sometimes someone replies to me and I only know about it by happening to look at the thread. ^^;

Anyway, about the referring to someone else bit, here: Let's take a look at the Gospel of Matthew where it's mentioned:

18 This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit. 19 Because Joseph her husband was faithful to the law, and yet did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.

20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”

22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23 “The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel (which means “God with us”).


Seems pretty straightforward. Until you actually look at the place the prophecy comes from, Isaiah 7, and look at the full context:


1When Ahaz son of Jotham, the son of Uzziah, was king of Judah, King Rezin of Aram and Pekah son of Remaliah king of Israel marched up to fight against Jerusalem, but they could not overpower it.

2Now the house of David was told, “Aram has allied itself with Ephraim”; so the hearts of Ahaz and his people were shaken, as the trees of the forest are shaken by the wind.

3Then the Lord said to Isaiah, “Go out, you and your son Shear-Jashub, to meet Ahaz at the end of the aqueduct of the Upper Pool, on the road to the Launderer’s Field. 4Say to him, ‘Be careful, keep calm and don’t be afraid. Do not lose heart because of these two smoldering stubs of firewood—because of the fierce anger of Rezin and Aram and of the son of Remaliah. 5Aram, Ephraim and Remaliah’s son have plotted your ruin, saying, 6“Let us invade Judah; let us tear it apart and divide it among ourselves, and make the son of Tabeel king over it.” 7Yet this is what the Sovereign Lord says:

“ ‘It will not take place,
it will not happen,
8for the head of Aram is Damascus,
and the head of Damascus is only Rezin.
Within sixty-five years
Ephraim will be too shattered to be a people.
9The head of Ephraim is Samaria,
and the head of Samaria is only Remaliah’s son.
If you do not stand firm in your faith,
you will not stand at all.’ ”

10Again the Lord spoke to Ahaz, 11“Ask the Lord your God for a sign, whether in the deepest depths or in the highest heights.”

12But Ahaz said, “I will not ask; I will not put the Lord to the test.”

13Then Isaiah said, “Hear now, you house of David! Is it not enough to try the patience of humans? Will you try the patience of my God also? 14Therefore the Lord himself will give youc a sign: The virgind will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel. 15He will be eating curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, 16for before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste. 17The Lord will bring on you and on your people and on the house of your father a time unlike any since Ephraim broke away from Judah—he will bring the king of Assyria.”


First of all, Isaiah is talking to Ahaz, giving him a prophecy that would be important to him, which would make no sense if it was talking about someone living centuries after Ahaz was on the Earth. Also, it doesn't say "the virgin shall conceive by the Holy Spirit and bear a son", the woman mentioned may have been a virgin and then had a son and not been a virgin anymore.

Most notably though, it says that when the boy called Immanuel knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right (when he learns, therefore, no indication of being "sinless and never doing anything wrong"), that the land of the two kings they dread would be laid to waste. So it was to be fulfilled within a few years, or at least within Ahaz's lifetime, and shortly after he would bring the kind of Assyria.

It was clearly and explicitly about a child who was not Jesus, and the child called Immanuel was more of a sign that the kings Ahaz feared would soon fall—more of a time marker than a person of importance. But people (including apparently Matthew) ignore or are unaware of the full context, and try to cherry-pick one verse and make it seem like it's referring to Jesus when full context shows it clearly refers to someone else.

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CrystalDragon said:

About that "I and the Father are one" thing, which is what I see most used in support of the Trinity (which seems straightforward to me), I actually found something that had me doubt that: John 17

Jesus Prays to Be Glorified

1After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:

“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. 5And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.


Jesus Prays for His Disciples

6“I have revealed youa to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. 10All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. 11I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. 12While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe byc that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

13“I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. 14I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. 15My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. 16They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17Sanctify them byd the truth; your word is truth. 18As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.

Jesus Prays for All Believers

20“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

24“Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

25“Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. 26I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be inf them and that I myself may be in them.”

CrystalDragon said:

That's okay about not seeing my response, I think there's something screwey with the notification system here, sometimes someone replies to me and I only know about it by happening to look at the thread. ^^;

Anyway, about the referring to someone else bit, here: Let's take a look at the Gospel of Matthew where it's mentioned:

18 This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit. 19 Because Joseph her husband was faithful to the law, and yet did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.

20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”

22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23 “The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel (which means “God with us”).


Seems pretty straightforward. Until you actually look at the place the prophecy comes from, Isaiah 7, and look at the full context:


1When Ahaz son of Jotham, the son of Uzziah, was king of Judah, King Rezin of Aram and Pekah son of Remaliah king of Israel marched up to fight against Jerusalem, but they could not overpower it.

2Now the house of David was told, “Aram has allied itself with Ephraim”; so the hearts of Ahaz and his people were shaken, as the trees of the forest are shaken by the wind.

3Then the Lord said to Isaiah, “Go out, you and your son Shear-Jashub, to meet Ahaz at the end of the aqueduct of the Upper Pool, on the road to the Launderer’s Field. 4Say to him, ‘Be careful, keep calm and don’t be afraid. Do not lose heart because of these two smoldering stubs of firewood—because of the fierce anger of Rezin and Aram and of the son of Remaliah. 5Aram, Ephraim and Remaliah’s son have plotted your ruin, saying, 6“Let us invade Judah; let us tear it apart and divide it among ourselves, and make the son of Tabeel king over it.” 7Yet this is what the Sovereign Lord says:

“ ‘It will not take place,
it will not happen,
8for the head of Aram is Damascus,
and the head of Damascus is only Rezin.
Within sixty-five years
Ephraim will be too shattered to be a people.
9The head of Ephraim is Samaria,
and the head of Samaria is only Remaliah’s son.
If you do not stand firm in your faith,
you will not stand at all.’ ”

10Again the Lord spoke to Ahaz, 11“Ask the Lord your God for a sign, whether in the deepest depths or in the highest heights.”

12But Ahaz said, “I will not ask; I will not put the Lord to the test.”

13Then Isaiah said, “Hear now, you house of David! Is it not enough to try the patience of humans? Will you try the patience of my God also? 14Therefore the Lord himself will give youc a sign: The virgind will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel. 15He will be eating curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, 16for before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste. 17The Lord will bring on you and on your people and on the house of your father a time unlike any since Ephraim broke away from Judah—he will bring the king of Assyria.”


First of all, Isaiah is talking to Ahaz, giving him a prophecy that would be important to him, which would make no sense if it was talking about someone living centuries after Ahaz was on the Earth. Also, it doesn't say "the virgin shall conceive by the Holy Spirit and bear a son", the woman mentioned may have been a virgin and then had a son and not been a virgin anymore.

Most notably though, it says that when the boy called Immanuel knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right (when he learns, therefore, no indication of being "sinless and never doing anything wrong"), that the land of the two kings they dread would be laid to waste. So it was to be fulfilled within a few years, or at least within Ahaz's lifetime, and shortly after he would bring the kind of Assyria.

It was clearly and explicitly about a child who was not Jesus, and the child called Immanuel was more of a sign that the kings Ahaz feared would soon fall—more of a time marker than a person of importance. But people (including apparently Matthew) ignore or are unaware of the full context, and try to cherry-pick one verse and make it seem like it's referring to Jesus when full context shows it clearly refers to someone else.

Click to expand...

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CrystalDragon said:

That's okay about not seeing my response, I think there's something screwey with the notification system here, sometimes someone replies to me and I only know about it by happening to look at the thread. ^^;

Anyway, about the referring to someone else bit, here: Let's take a look at the Gospel of Matthew where it's mentioned:

18 This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit. 19 Because Joseph her husband was faithful to the law, and yet did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.

20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”

22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23 “The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel (which means “God with us”).


Seems pretty straightforward. Until you actually look at the place the prophecy comes from, Isaiah 7, and look at the full context:


1When Ahaz son of Jotham, the son of Uzziah, was king of Judah, King Rezin of Aram and Pekah son of Remaliah king of Israel marched up to fight against Jerusalem, but they could not overpower it.

2Now the house of David was told, “Aram has allied itself with Ephraim”; so the hearts of Ahaz and his people were shaken, as the trees of the forest are shaken by the wind.

3Then the Lord said to Isaiah, “Go out, you and your son Shear-Jashub, to meet Ahaz at the end of the aqueduct of the Upper Pool, on the road to the Launderer’s Field. 4Say to him, ‘Be careful, keep calm and don’t be afraid. Do not lose heart because of these two smoldering stubs of firewood—because of the fierce anger of Rezin and Aram and of the son of Remaliah. 5Aram, Ephraim and Remaliah’s son have plotted your ruin, saying, 6“Let us invade Judah; let us tear it apart and divide it among ourselves, and make the son of Tabeel king over it.” 7Yet this is what the Sovereign Lord says:

“ ‘It will not take place,
it will not happen,
8for the head of Aram is Damascus,
and the head of Damascus is only Rezin.
Within sixty-five years
Ephraim will be too shattered to be a people.
9The head of Ephraim is Samaria,
and the head of Samaria is only Remaliah’s son.
If you do not stand firm in your faith,
you will not stand at all.’ ”

10Again the Lord spoke to Ahaz, 11“Ask the Lord your God for a sign, whether in the deepest depths or in the highest heights.”

12But Ahaz said, “I will not ask; I will not put the Lord to the test.”

13Then Isaiah said, “Hear now, you house of David! Is it not enough to try the patience of humans? Will you try the patience of my God also? 14Therefore the Lord himself will give youc a sign: The virgind will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel. 15He will be eating curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, 16for before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste. 17The Lord will bring on you and on your people and on the house of your father a time unlike any since Ephraim broke away from Judah—he will bring the king of Assyria.”


First of all, Isaiah is talking to Ahaz, giving him a prophecy that would be important to him, which would make no sense if it was talking about someone living centuries after Ahaz was on the Earth. Also, it doesn't say "the virgin shall conceive by the Holy Spirit and bear a son", the woman mentioned may have been a virgin and then had a son and not been a virgin anymore.

Most notably though, it says that when the boy called Immanuel knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right (when he learns, therefore, no indication of being "sinless and never doing anything wrong"), that the land of the two kings they dread would be laid to waste. So it was to be fulfilled within a few years, or at least within Ahaz's lifetime, and shortly after he would bring the kind of Assyria.

It was clearly and explicitly about a child who was not Jesus, and the child called Immanuel was more of a sign that the kings Ahaz feared would soon fall—more of a time marker than a person of importance. But people (including apparently Matthew) ignore or are unaware of the full context, and try to cherry-pick one verse and make it seem like it's referring to Jesus when full context shows it clearly refers to someone else.

Click to expand...

Daniel 11:27-39King James Version (KJV)
27 And both of these kings' hearts shall be to do mischief, and they shall speak lies at one table; but it shall not prosper: for yet the end shall be at the time appointed.

28 Then shall he return into his land with great riches; and his heart shall be against the holy covenant; and he shall do exploits, and return to his own land.

29 At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter.

30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.

31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.

33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.

34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.

35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.

39 Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.
Comment: a preponderance of chapter 11 verses 1-35 or so is about Alexander the Great and events post that yet from 36-45 the anti Christ is clearly emphasized here. Prophecy is tricky that way and prophecy is unique in that verses sometimes don't fit the context.

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CrystalDragon said:

About that "I and the Father are one" thing, which is what I see most used in support of the Trinity (which seems straightforward to me), I actually found something that had me doubt that: John 17

Jesus Prays to Be Glorified

1After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:

“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. 5And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.


Jesus Prays for His Disciples

6“I have revealed youa to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. 10All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. 11I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. 12While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe byc that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

13“I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. 14I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. 15My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. 16They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17Sanctify them byd the truth; your word is truth. 18As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.

Jesus Prays for All Believers

20“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

24“Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

25“Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. 26I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.”



Jesus mentions how he prays that all believers will be one just as he and the Father are. It's impossible for all believers to be "one" with one another in a sort of Trinitarian concept. But that "I and the Father are one" scene is the one verse that really seemed to indicate a Trinity to me from what Jesus was supposed to have said, but with John 17 I'm beginning to have doubts of that...

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