Praying to Mary - A Biblical Defense

amariselle · Aug 8, 2017

PeaceB said:
No, I accept every single Scripture verse shared by you and others. I reject your interpretation of Scripture.

Are you having difficulty understanding that your personal interpretation of Scripture is not the inspired word of God?

I've repeatedly quoted Scripture with not a single word of my own alongside it.

But, yeah, whatever you need to tell yourself I guess.

PeaceB · Aug 8, 2017

amariselle said:
I've repeatedly quoted Scripture with not a single word of my own alongside it.

But, yeah, whatever you need to tell yourself I guess.

I have never rejected a single verse of Scripture quoted by you or anyone else. When we reject your interpretation of Scripture, you accuse us of rejecting Scripture. That is because you equate your interpretation of Scripture with the inspired Word of God itself. You just refuse to admit it.

amariselle · Aug 8, 2017

PeaceB said:
I have never rejected a single verse of Scripture quoted by you or anyone else. When we reject your interpretation of Scripture, you accuse us of rejecting Scripture. That is because you equate your interpretation of Scripture with the inspired Word of God itself. You just refuse to admit it.

As I said, I have repeatedly shared Scripture without a single added comment. You still reject it.

Your choice.

Now, let's get back on topic.

"Praying to Mary - A Biblical Defense."

PeaceB · Aug 8, 2017

amariselle said:
I've never understood how it's okay to worship a fellow human being who has been physically dead and gone from this life for 2,000 years.

But worshiping oneself by equating one's personal interpretation of Scripture with the inspired Word of God is apparently A-OK.

I've also never understood how anyone thinks she can hear all the thousands of prayers said to her daily. Is she omniscient? Omnipresent?

Praying to the Saints | Catholic Answers

Overlooking the Obvious

Some objections to the concept of prayer to the saints betray restricted notions of heaven. One comes from anti-Catholic Loraine Boettner:

"How, then, can a human being such as Mary hear the prayers of millions of Roman Catholics, in many different countries, praying in many different languages, all at the same time?

"Let any priest or layman try to converse with only three people at the same time and see how impossible that is for a human being. . . . The objections against prayers to Mary apply equally against prayers to the saints. For they too are only creatures, infinitely less than God, able to be at only one place at a time and to do only one thing at a time.

"How, then, can they listen to and answer thousands upon thousands of petitions made simultaneously in many different lands and in many different languages? Many such petitions are expressed, not orally, but only mentally, silently. How can Mary and the saints, without being like God, be present everywhere and know the secrets of all hearts?" (Roman Catholicism, 142-143).

If being in heaven were like being in the next room, then of course these objections would be valid. A mortal, unglorified person in the next room would indeed suffer the restrictions imposed by the way space and time work in our universe. But the saints are not in the next room, and they are not subject to the time/space limitations of this life.

This does not imply that the saints in heaven therefore must be omniscient, as God is, for it is only through God’s willing it that they can communicate with others in heaven or with us. And Boettner’s argument about petitions arriving in different languages is even further off the mark. Does anyone really think that in heaven the saints are restricted to the King’s English? After all, it is God himself who gives the gift of tongues and the interpretation of tongues. Surely those saints in Revelation understand the prayers they are shown to be offering to God.

The problem here is one of what might be called a primitive or even childish view of heaven. It is certainly not one on which enough intellectual rigor has been exercised. A good introduction to the real implications of the afterlife may be found in Frank Sheed’s book Theology and Sanity, which argues that sanity depends on an accurate appreciation of reality, and that includes an accurate appreciation of what heaven is really like. And once that is known, the place of prayer to the saints follows.

JESUS=G.O.A.T · Aug 8, 2017

Sinxe GOd really is omnipresen, omnipotentent, and omniscient I guess my question is for Catholics why do you need Mary in there? Like what purpose does she serve in that equation

amariselle · Aug 8, 2017

As to the topic of this thread, 11 pages in, not a shred of Biblical support to defend the practice of praying to Mary.

amariselle · Aug 8, 2017

PeaceB said:
But worshiping oneself by equating one's personal interpretation of Scripture with the inspired Word of God is apparently A-OK.

Yep, everyone who reads the Bible for themselves is guilty of "worshipping" themselves.

Do you "worship" your Church then? Since you go by their interpretation?

PeaceB said:
Praying to the Saints | Catholic Answers

Overlooking the Obvious

Some objections to the concept of prayer to the saints betray restricted notions of heaven. One comes from anti-Catholic Loraine Boettner:

"How, then, can a human being such as Mary hear the prayers of millions of Roman Catholics, in many different countries, praying in many different languages, all at the same time?

"Let any priest or layman try to converse with only three people at the same time and see how impossible that is for a human being. . . . The objections against prayers to Mary apply equally against prayers to the saints. For they too are only creatures, infinitely less than God, able to be at only one place at a time and to do only one thing at a time.

"How, then, can they listen to and answer thousands upon thousands of petitions made simultaneously in many different lands and in many different languages? Many such petitions are expressed, not orally, but only mentally, silently. How can Mary and the saints, without being like God, be present everywhere and know the secrets of all hearts?" (Roman Catholicism, 142-143).

If being in heaven were like being in the next room, then of course these objections would be valid. A mortal, unglorified person in the next room would indeed suffer the restrictions imposed by the way space and time work in our universe. But the saints are not in the next room, and they are not subject to the time/space limitations of this life.

This does not imply that the saints in heaven therefore must be omniscient, as God is, for it is only through God’s willing it that they can communicate with others in heaven or with us. And Boettner’s argument about petitions arriving in different languages is even further off the mark. Does anyone really think that in heaven the saints are restricted to the King’s English? After all, it is God himself who gives the gift of tongues and the interpretation of tongues. Surely those saints in Revelation understand the prayers they are shown to be offering to God.

The problem here is one of what might be called a primitive or even childish view of heaven. It is certainly not one on which enough intellectual rigor has been exercised. A good introduction to the real implications of the afterlife may be found in Frank Sheed’s book Theology and Sanity, which argues that sanity depends on an accurate appreciation of reality, and that includes an accurate appreciation of what heaven is really like. And once that is known, the place of prayer to the saints follows.

This thread asks for a Biblical defense of praying to Mary, not "Catholic Answers."

PeaceB · Aug 8, 2017

JESUS=G.O.A.T said:
Sinxe GOd really is omnipresen, omnipotentent, and omniscient I guess my question is for Catholics why do you need Mary in there? Like what purpose does she serve in that equation

SUMMA THEOLOGIAE: Prayer (Secunda Secundae Partis, Q. 83)

Article 4. Whether we ought to pray to God alone?
Objection 1. It would seem that we ought to pray to God alone. Prayer is an act of religion, as stated above (Article 3). But God alone is to be worshiped by religion. Therefore we should pray to God alone.

Objection 2. Further, it is useless to pray to one who is ignorant of the prayer. But it belongs to God alone to know one's prayer, both because frequently prayer is uttered by an interior act which God alone knows, rather than by words, according to the saying of the Apostle (1 Corinthians 14:15), "I will pray with the spirit, I will pray also with the understanding": and again because, as Augustine says (De Cura pro mortuis xiii) the "dead, even the saints, know not what the living, even their own children, are doing." Therefore we ought to pray to God alone.

Objection 3. Further, if we pray to any of the saints, this is only because they are united to God. Now some yet living in this world, or even some who are in Purgatory, are closely united to God by grace, and yet we do not pray to them. Therefore neither should we pray to the saints who are in Paradise.

On the contrary, It is written (Job 5:1), "Call . . . if there be any that will answer thee, and turn to some of the saints."

I answer that, Prayer is offered to a person in two ways: first, as to be fulfilled by him, secondly, as to be obtained through him. On the first way we offer prayer to God alone, since all our prayers ought to be directed to the acquisition of grace and glory, which God alone gives, according to Psalm 83:12, "The Lord will give grace and glory." But in the second way we pray to the saints, whether angels or men, not that God may through them know our petitions, but that our prayers may be effective through their prayers and merits. Hence it is written (Apocalypse 8:4) that "the smoke of the incense," namely "the prayers of the saints ascended up before God." This is also clear from the very style employed by the Church in praying: since we beseech the Blessed Trinity "to have mercy on us," while we ask any of the saints "to pray for us."

Reply to Objection 1. To Him alone do we offer religious worship when praying, from Whom we seek to obtain what we pray for, because by so doing we confess that He is the Author of our goods: but not to those whom we call upon as our advocates in God's presence.

Reply to Objection 2. The dead, if we consider their natural condition, do not know what takes place in this world, especially the interior movements of the heart. Nevertheless, according to Gregory (Moral. xii, 21), whatever it is fitting the blessed should know about what happens to us, even as regards the interior movements of the heart, is made known to them in the Word: and it is most becoming to their exalted position that they should know the petitions we make to them by word or thought; and consequently the petitions which we raise to them are known to them through Divine manifestation.

Reply to Objection 3. Those who are in this world or in Purgatory, do not yet enjoy the vision of the Word, so as to be able to know what we think or say. Wherefore we do not seek their assistance by praying to them, but ask it of the living by speaking to them.

amariselle · Aug 8, 2017

PeaceB said:
SUMMA THEOLOGIAE: Prayer (Secunda Secundae Partis, Q. 83)

Article 4. Whether we ought to pray to God alone?
Objection 1. It would seem that we ought to pray to God alone. Prayer is an act of religion, as stated above (Article 3). But God alone is to be worshiped by religion. Therefore we should pray to God alone.

Objection 2. Further, it is useless to pray to one who is ignorant of the prayer. But it belongs to God alone to know one's prayer, both because frequently prayer is uttered by an interior act which God alone knows, rather than by words, according to the saying of the Apostle (1 Corinthians 14:15), "I will pray with the spirit, I will pray also with the understanding": and again because, as Augustine says (De Cura pro mortuis xiii) the "dead, even the saints, know not what the living, even their own children, are doing." Therefore we ought to pray to God alone.

Objection 3. Further, if we pray to any of the saints, this is only because they are united to God. Now some yet living in this world, or even some who are in Purgatory, are closely united to God by grace, and yet we do not pray to them. Therefore neither should we pray to the saints who are in Paradise.

On the contrary, It is written (Job 5:1), "Call . . . if there be any that will answer thee, and turn to some of the saints."

I answer that, Prayer is offered to a person in two ways: first, as to be fulfilled by him, secondly, as to be obtained through him. On the first way we offer prayer to God alone, since all our prayers ought to be directed to the acquisition of grace and glory, which God alone gives, according to Psalm 83:12, "The Lord will give grace and glory." But in the second way we pray to the saints, whether angels or men, not that God may through them know our petitions, but that our prayers may be effective through their prayers and merits. Hence it is written (Apocalypse 8:4) that "the smoke of the incense," namely "the prayers of the saints ascended up before God." This is also clear from the very style employed by the Church in praying: since we beseech the Blessed Trinity "to have mercy on us," while we ask any of the saints "to pray for us."

Reply to Objection 1. To Him alone do we offer religious worship when praying, from Whom we seek to obtain what we pray for, because by so doing we confess that He is the Author of our goods: but not to those whom we call upon as our advocates in God's presence.

Reply to Objection 2. The dead, if we consider their natural condition, do not know what takes place in this world, especially the interior movements of the heart. Nevertheless, according to Gregory (Moral. xii, 21), whatever it is fitting the blessed should know about what happens to us, even as regards the interior movements of the heart, is made known to them in the Word: and it is most becoming to their exalted position that they should know the petitions we make to them by word or thought; and consequently the petitions which we raise to them are known to them through Divine manifestation.

Reply to Objection 3. Those who are in this world or in Purgatory, do not yet enjoy the vision of the Word, so as to be able to know what we think or say. Wherefore we do not seek their assistance by praying to them, but ask it of the living by speaking to them.

Please provide a Biblical defense for praying to Mary. Not Catholic sources.

PeaceB · Aug 8, 2017

amariselle said:
Yep, everyone who reads the Bible for themselves is guilty of "worshipping" themselves.

Do you "worship" your Church then? Since you go by their interpretation?

No, you worship yourself because you accuse us of rejecting the inspired word of God when we reject your personal interpretations of Scripture. Thus, you equate your own personal opinions with the Word of God.

This thread asks for a Biblical defense of praying to Mary, not "Catholic Answers."

Post #188.

PeaceB · Aug 8, 2017

amariselle said:
Please provide a Biblical defense for praying to Mary. Not Catholic sources.

He asked a question. I gave him an answer. And the answer has several references to Scripture.

And you do not have authority to say what I can and cannot post.

amariselle · Aug 8, 2017

PeaceB said:
No, you worship yourself because you accuse use of rejecting the inspired word of God when we reject your personal interpretations of Scripture. Thus, you equate your own personal opinions with the Word of God.

Post #188.

As I said, I have repeatedly provided Scripture without a single added comment, you still reject it.

And yet I am somehow guilty of "worshipping" myself...I can assure you, I think very little of myself. What I care about is what the Bible says, and I wish for other people to care as well.

And who is this "we" you keep referring to? I'm talking to you, and you're only one person, right?

amariselle · Aug 8, 2017

PeaceB said:
He asked a question. I gave him an answer. And the answer has several references to Scripture.

And you do not have authority to say what I can and cannot post.

It's quite telling that you are not willing to simply share Scripture to support praying to Mary.

As for commenting on what you post, I am trying to stay on topic. It's a fair enough request. If you want to start a thread based on Catholic support for praying to Mary, you can always do so.

PeaceB · Aug 8, 2017

amariselle said:
As I said, I have repeatedly provided Scripture without a single added comment, you still reject it.

No, I have never rejected a single verse of Scripture. That is false.

And yet I am somehow guilty of "worshipping" myself...I can assure you, I think very little of myself. What I care about is what the Bible says, and I wish for other people to care as well.

If you say so.

And who is this "we" you keep referring to? I'm talking to you, and you're only one person, right?

The "we" refers to myself and others who reject your personal interpretations of Scripture.

PeaceB · Aug 8, 2017

amariselle said:
It's quite telling that you are not willing to simply share Scripture to support praying to Mary.

As for commenting on what you post, I am trying to stay on topic. It's a fair enough request. If you want to start a thread based on Catholic support for praying to Mary, you can always do so.

I already provided my Biblical defense. Post #188.

amariselle · Aug 8, 2017

PeaceB said:
No, I have never rejected a single verse of Scripture. That is false.

You keep saying that, and yet you have yet to address any of the verses I've shared.

PeaceB said:
If you say so.

I do, yes.

PeaceB said:
The "we" refers to myself and others who reject your personal interpretations of Scripture.

Again, not a personal interpretation. I have posted multiple Scripture verses with no comment of my own. You still reject them/refuse to address them.

amariselle · Aug 8, 2017

PeaceB said:
I already provided my Biblical defense. Post #188.

Okay:

PeaceB said:
6 And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, with seven horns and with seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7 And he went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who was seated on the throne. 8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying,

“Worthy are you to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation,
10 and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God,
and they shall reign on the earth.”

So, where in those verses does it say we should pray to Mary?

PeaceB · Aug 8, 2017

amariselle said:
I have posted multiple Scripture verses with no comment of my own. You still reject them/refuse to address them.

No. I never rejected any Scriptures. I accept them for exactly what they state. They do not state "you are forbidden to have any communication with those who have left this Earth." This is merely your interpretation of the Scriptures, and I reject your interpretation.

PeaceB · Aug 8, 2017

amariselle said:
Okay:
So, where in those verses does it say we should pray to Mary?

The text does not state "we should pray to Mary."

amariselle · Aug 8, 2017

PeaceB said:
No. I never rejected any Scriptures. I accept them for exactly what they state. They do not state "you are forbidden to have any communication with those who have left this Earth." This is merely your interpretation of the Scriptures, and I reject your interpretation.

I didn't write anything at all when I posted those verses, still you did not address them.

Alright, I'm done playing games. This is going nowhere.

You have been given Scripture (with no comments) and you do not acknowledge any of it.

So, keep praying to those who have left this life, regardless of what the Bible says.

God bless

Praying to Mary - A Biblical Defense

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