Praying to Saints? - Praying to those who are already in Heaven?

Forgive me...

Constantine the Sinner said:

If the Psalm is referring to Christ in Psalms 45:6-7, then it absolute says that there is a queen at his right hand in Psalms 45:9.

Yes, I would call her salutation an exaltation.

If anyone is worthy of veneration, she is, as she is given a higher place than anyone else in creation throughout the Bible.

Luke 1 exalts her more than anyone else in the Bible save obviously the Almighty. So she is clearly worthy of veneration, unless veneration is prohibited by the Bible.

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Jesus never once venerated her as the Catholic Church does. Nor does He ever refer to her as His queen. Not once.

amariselle said:

Jesus never once venerated her as the Catholic Church does. Nor does He ever refer to her as His queen. Not once.

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Jesus is GOD of course he doesn't venerate her, what the heck. Saints are venerated as servants of God, not as above God.

Christ never refers to himself as king either.

JayW said:

I have read the deuterocanonical texts, including the passage you quoted. What is conspicuously missing from 2 Maccabees is any mention of whether or not their actions yielded any results or if such actions were pleasing to the Lord. We need to understand the difference between descriptive and prescriptive. The fact that nowhere does God command anyone to do that tells us the account from 2 Maccabees, assuming it’s accurate, is descriptive.

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Jews pray for the dead, so they view it as efficacious. I guess Mark ending with an empty tomb means he was not to sure if Jesus arose or the body stolen.

But atleast I proved you guys use a different bible and worship a dead God.

amariselle said:

Really? You haven't heard or read anything about Christian martyrs? I humbly suggest you do some research into this. Perhaps you'll learn to view the Bible differently once you realize more fully the very real spiritual battle we are in.



What exactly would you know specifically about God and Jesus Christ our Saviour of it wasn't for the Bible?


It really doesn't matter what people "want to believe about it." The Bible is the inspired word of God, not a man-made collection of ancient "

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I know about the martyrs I just don't know any that were killed for preserving a book. Last group of martyrs that received media attention were the Copts killed by ISIS, but they weren't killed over a bible. By the way they too believe in prayers to the saints, thats precisely why martyrs were commemorated in the early church as victors who have passed on to life eternal and we're able to intercede on behalf of the struggling earthly faithful.

buzuxi02 said:

I know about the martyrs I just don't know any that were killed for preserving a book. Last group of martyrs that received media attention were the Copts killed by ISIS, but they weren't killed over a bible. By the way they too believe in prayers to the saints, thats precisely why martyrs were commemorated in the early church as victors who have passed on to life eternal and we're able to intercede on behalf of the struggling earthly faithful.

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Please do some research. Many many Christians have been killed because of the Bible and in defense of it, translating it, reading it, etc. Even today this is happening in certain countries.

Maybe a few of the Russian martyrs under communism but not the majority, those Christians can operate without any bible. And to their credit they use the complete bible. The Smyrna Genocide certainly had religious overtones but not directly correlated to passing out bibles. The Armenian Genocide same thing. Oh and everyone of those groups believe in prayers to the heavenly saints and prayers for the dead. So 99% of martyrs are killed for refusing to deny Christ and all agree with me that scripture does teach prayers to the saints.

Nowhere in the New Testament are we instructed on encouraged to pray for the saints. In fact, "saints" were described as ordinary believers in the early Church. It is the Roman Catholic Church that decided that certain individuals needed to be "canonised" or promoted to be special people. So, in Catholic theology, "saints" are those who have gone through a ceremony to be labelled as such. Catholics do not call ordinary believers saints.

Of course, Catholic theology developed through Scripture and Church tradition. Prayer to the saints (and I am guessing here) may have started when someone prayed to a "saint" and a miracle happened, or that someone had a vision of the Virgin Mary for the first time and so a theology developed that she has a special place in heaven alongside Jesus and the Father.

We have to realise that in the Fourth Century when Constantine became emperor of Rome, Christianity became the state religion and the pagan temples had to close. Because everyone had to join Christian churches, the Church had a large influx of folks who retained their pagan beliefs and mixed them with Christianity. Over the generations, this mixture resulted in aspects of Catholic theology that came out of the tradition that developed.

One pagan goddess was termed "the queen of heaven" (I'm not sure which), and I guess that someone got the idea of giving that term to the Virgin Mary. Worship of the Virgin Mary and the saints would be seen as idolatory by most Protestant believers.

As for me, I choose to take a non-judgmental stance on this. My wife has a Catholic background and through her I have been able to have a better understanding of her faith. I sometimes make fun of it and we both enjoy Dave Allen's humour concerning the church, along with the TV programme Father Ted, but I would never seriously criticise her for expressing her faith, which I believe is genuine, through Catholic terminology.

I wouldn't pray to Mary or the saints because that would be against my personal conscience, and I believe that something that is against my conscience is sin to me. Others may not have that conscience about it so it is debatable whether it is sin to them, so I remain non-judgmental. God looks on the heart of people and if someone, like my wife, believes that Jesus is the Son of God who died on the cross for us and who rose from the dead, who am I to judge whether that person is right with God or not?

buzuxi02 said:

Maybe a few of the Russian martyrs under communism but not the majority, those Christians can operate without any bible. And to their credit they use the complete bible. The Smyrna Genocide certainly had religious overtones but not directly correlated to passing out bibles. The Armenian Genocide same thing. Oh and everyone of those groups believe in prayers to the heavenly saints and prayers for the dead. So 99% of martyrs are killed for refusing to deny Christ and all agree with me that scripture does teach prayers to the saints.

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Where? Give us the references in the New Testament.

It existed before the Roman Catholics did anything.
Prayers to the saints are listed in the services of Addai and Mari. They did not get it from Rome.

Forgive me...

OrthodoxyUSA said:

It existed before the Roman Catholics did anything.
Prayers to the saints are listed in the services of Addai and Mari. They did not get it from Rome.

Forgive me...

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Have you got a link to that? I'd like to read about it for my own education. By the way, just down the road from where I work there is a church named St Addai and it has Middle Eastern writing on its billboard. It would be good for me to know more about it.

buzuxi02 said:

Maybe a few of the Russian martyrs under communism but not the majority, those Christians can operate without any bible. And to their credit they use the complete bible. The Smyrna Genocide certainly had religious overtones but not directly correlated to passing out bibles. The Armenian Genocide same thing. Oh and everyone of those groups believe in prayers to the heavenly saints and prayers for the dead. So 99% of martyrs are killed for refusing to deny Christ and all agree with me that scripture does teach prayers to the saints.

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Alright, believe as you like. There's far more history than what you've just referred to, but no matter.

Oscarr said:

Have you got a link to that? I'd like to read about it for my own education. By the way, just down the road from where I work there is a church named St Addai and it has Middle Eastern writing on its billboard. It would be good for me to know more about it.

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Liturgy of Addai and Mari - Wikipedia
Here's a link, but the study from the actual Church that uses it is far more edifying. Truely a 1st century work.

I know a book you would like. The shape of the Liturgy by Dom Gregory Dix, an Angelcian, highly recommended by Orthodox clergy.

Forgive me...

buzuxi02 said:

But atleast I proved you guys use a different bible and worship a dead God.

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say what???

Oscarr said:

Where? Give us the references in the New Testament.

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I gave references but no one understood what everyone in the near east of centuries ago can ONLY understand it as. From Tobit 12:12-15 to the priest Zechariah burning incense at the hour of prayer inside the temple opposite the altar (heavenly spiritual sphere) while everyone collectively prayed outside the temple (earthly sphere). Zechariah did not just say "pray on your own you don't need me to enter into the holier cavity and burn incense on your behalf as an intercessor". In Rev 5:8 where 24 elders hold the bowls of incense which arise and are the prayers of the saints. There can only be one way to understand this because the theme of using incense and its context within their culture can only mean one thing.

But we don't use the same scripture, we don't even have a common vocabulary, and view scrupture differently.

OrthodoxyUSA said:

Liturgy of Addai and Mari - Wikipedia
Here's a link, but the study from the actual Church that uses it is far more edifying. Truely a 1st century work.

I know a book you would like. The shape of the Liturgy by Dom Gregory Dix, an Angelcian, highly recommended by Orthodox clergy.

Forgive me...

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Thanks for that. You don't need forgiveness. Jesus already has!

1 timothy 2:5
One mediater between God and man...Christ Jesus

Romans 3:23
Alll have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.....

Hebrews 4:15
He was tempted in all ways yet without sin.....

Hear o Israel Yahweh your God is one
Deuteronomy 6:4

One Lord one faith one babtism
One God and Father.....
Ephesians 4:5-6
King of kings and Lord of Lords
Revelation19:16

To pray to anyone other than God the Father through his son Jesus Christ is idolatry.......
1 john 5:21
Little children keep yourselves from idols

PropheticTimes said:

say what???

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The implication of insisting that we are praying to dead people- even after it has been reiterated (using scripture) numerous times that those in Christ are alive (in other words- insisting on using straw men- putting up beliefs we don't actually hold)- is that you must believe that God is the God of the dead. There is truly no other way to interpret things at this point.

buzuxi02 said:

I gave references but no one understood what everyone in the near east of centuries ago can ONLY understand it as. From Tobit 12:12-15 to the priest Zechariah burning incense at the hour of prayer inside the temple opposite the altar (heavenly spiritual sphere) while everyone collectively prayed outside the temple (earthly sphere). Zechariah did not just say "pray on your own you don't need me to enter into the holier cavity and burn incense on your behalf as an intercessor". In Rev 5:8 where 24 elders hold the bowls of incense which arise and are the prayers of the saints. There can only be one way to understand this because the theme of using incense and its context within their culture can only mean one thing.

But we don't use the same scripture, we don't even have a common vocabulary, and view scrupture differently.

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I looked the reference up and I don't see that prayer was directed to anyone but the Lord. It seemed that the priest took a prayer request and passed it to the Lord in the same way that we would ask a priest or pastor to pray for us. Concerning the incense, it says that it is the prayer of the saints, not prayers to the saints. So I can't see how that reference proves that prayers to the saints is supported. There is a big difference in meaning between the words "of" and "to".

seashale76 said:

The implication of insisting that we are praying to dead people- even after it has been reiterated (using scripture) numerous times that those in Christ are alive (in other words- insisting on using straw men- putting up beliefs we don't actually hold)- is that you must believe that God is the God of the dead. There is truly no other way to interpret things at this point.

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Really? I think what is meant by "dead" is physically dead, not Spiritually.

I mean, most Christians do believe in eternal life, right?.....