Praying to Saints? - Praying to those who are already in Heaven?

seashale76 said:

. Nobody prays to the dead. I suggest you go read my post #271.

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Someone praying to Mary is as good as me praying to my deceased grandma. They are dead. They cannot take up anything for you as much as they could for themselves in the grave.

Constantine the Sinner said:

I would say the queen in verse 9 is Mary based on verse 7 being cognate with Hebrews 1:9, and verse 17 being cognate with Luke 1:48.

But the title is de facto anyway. Jesus is the king of heaven and Israel and this was said in conjunction with Mary mothering him (Luke 1:31-33), so Mary, being the Mother of the Lord, is by definition queen. The only ways you can really argue against this is by saying the mother of the king is not queen, or that Mary is not the mother of the king, which she obviously is (Luke 1:43).

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Actually, that Psalm says absolutely nothing about Mary.

Also, Jesus said absolutely nothing about Mary being His queen either. Do you honestly think He would have left that out?

Mskriskris said:

Someone praying to Mary is as good as me praying to my deceased grandma. They are dead. They cannot take up anything for you as much as they could for themselves in the grave.

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You obviously did not bother to read anything- eh? Who is dead? I'd be very careful going there- lest you call God a liar. Here are some scriptures wherein we are told that God is the God of the living and not the dead. It is not metaphorical- it is literal.

John 6:47-51
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. I am that bread of life. Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

John 5:25-29
“Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself, and has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of man. Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.

Matthew 27:51-53
“And behold, the veil of the sanctuary was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth quaked, rocks were split, tombs were opened, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. And coming forth from their tombs after his resurrection, they entered the holy city and appeared to many.”

John 11:23-27
“Jesus said to her, ‘Your brother will rise.’ Martha said to him, ‘I know he will rise, in the resurrection on the last day.’ ”

“Jesus told her, ‘I am the resurrection and the life; whoever believes in me, even if he dies, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?’ ” She said to him, ‘Yes, Lord. I have come to believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, ...’ ”

Matthew 22:32
“ ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”

Luke 20:38
“and he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

Revelation 21:27
“ … but nothing unclean will enter it, nor any (one) who does abominable things or tells lies. Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”

seashale76 said:

Nor did you actually know what he knows about them- but it didn't stop you from posting what you did- eh?

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He specifically said he didn't know how many have died. Go read the comment again before making blatant accusations.

seashale76 said:

It doesn't mean much to Orthodox Christians because the Church preserved the faith- and thus never had a Reformation or need of one.

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That's certainly your opinion, and you have every right to it. Just as I have every right to disagree.

seashale76 said:

I know quite a bit about the Reformation and I know people died. I've read Fox's Book of Martyrs. I also know that once the Protestants were in control they did their own share of killing.

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Yep. None of it excusable. But I didn't say it was, now did I? And it doesn't mean that a Reformation wasn't necessary or important, or that all those people who died, died for nothing.

seashale76 said:

I did answer your question. The Church interprets the scriptures and I go with what the Church says.

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I didn't ask for vague interpretation. I asked for specific citation.

Still waiting........

JayW said:

I didn't ask for vague interpretation. I asked for specific citation.

Still waiting........

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I asked questions of you first that you never bothered to answer. Those questions are very pertinent- but I think we both know why you won't answer them. I also did answer your questions. The scriptures have never claimed to tell us absolutely everything. This is why we have the Church interpreting them for us. You'll never accept that- which is very odd- because you had to accept that those same men gave you the scriptures in the first place (but you don't accept all of the scriptures either). It's quite easy to be sola scriptura when you don't accept all of scripture and leave things open to interpret it how you please- isn't it?

seashale76 said:

I also did answer your questions. The scriptures have never claimed to tell us absolutely everything.

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So just to be clear, your answer to my questions asking for scriptural references to substantiate that the actions taken in 2 Maccabees 12:42-45 brought about the desired result or were pleasing to God, or any scriptural references to God commanding people to do such actions...is that none exist?

Would that be correct?

JayW said:

So just to be clear, your answer to my questions asking for scriptural references to substantiate that the actions taken in 2 Maccabees 12:42-45 brought about the desired result or were pleasing to God, or any scriptural references to God commanding people to do such actions...is that none exist?

Would that be correct?

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Oh- I can play this game too. Just to be clear- you are refusing to recognize this scripture as scripture- nor do you do something done in the scriptures (both Old and New) as interpreted by and practiced by the Church from the beginning until now?

Traveling teacher said:

GOd rebuked Peter for wanting to make an idol to Moses and Elijah on the mount of transfiguration.....

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Well that is a novel interpretation. That is truly the first time I've heard anyone suggest such a thing!

amariselle said:

Actually, that Psalm says absolutely nothing about Mary.

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Who is the queen who sits on God's right hand in the Pslam, and all generations shall praise?

Also, Jesus said absolutely nothing about Mary being His queen either. Do you honestly think He would have left that out?

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It would be kind of funny for him to call Mary his queen when he didn't even call himself king.

Constantine the Sinner said:

Who is the queen who sits on God's right hand in the Pslam, and all generations shall praise?

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Why do you think that Psalm is referring to a heavenly kingdom at all?

Constantine the Sinner said:

It would be kind of funny for him to call Mary his queen when he didn't even call himself king.

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It would be "kind of funny" for Him to call Mary His queen, period.

seashale76 said:

Oh- I can play this game too. Just to be clear- you are refusing to recognize this scripture as scripture- nor do you do something done in the scriptures (both Old and New) as interpreted by and practiced by the Church from the beginning until now?

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Not a game, my friend. You chose to quote a post of mine asking for scriptural citations and somehow pivoted into a barrage of irrelevant questions regarding interpretation. I'm pointing out an empty parking lot, and you are offended by me not wanting to engage you in an argument over how to determine a Chevy versus a Ford. I graciously agreed to entertain you on the grounds that you either found some cars in that lot or agreed it was empty.

You got close to acknowledging the parking lot is empty, very close, but now you backtracked again. So is you would either concede the parking lot is empty or show me a car, then I'll be happy to tell you how I determine year, make, and model.

Still waiting......

amariselle said:

Why do you think that Psalm is referring to a heavenly kingdom at all?

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Because Hebrews 1:9 quotes Psalms 45:7 as prophecy illustrating Christ's divinity.

It would be "kind of funny" for Him to call Mary His queen, period.

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Because he doesn't refer to himself as king, yes. But when he comes openly as king, it would hardly be funny.

Constantine the Sinner said:

Because Hebrews 1:9 quotes Psalms 45:7 as prophecy illustrating Christ's divinity.

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Of course there are many types and shadows of Christ in the OT, the only one pertaining to Mary, is that the Messiah would be born of a virgin. Nothing about a "Queen of Heaven", unless you count those verses in Jeremiah.

Constantine the Sinner said:

Because he doesn't refer to himself as king, yes. But when he comes openly as king, it would hardly be funny.

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So remind me, when the Bible says Jesus will come again on the clouds with power and glory, and that He will set up His kingdom, where does it say anything about Him having a queen? Specifically Mary?

amariselle said:

Of course there are many types and shadows of Christ in the OT, the only one pertaining to Mary, is that the Messiah would be born of a virgin. Nothing about a "Queen of Heaven", unless you count those verses in Jeremiah.

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I don't consider it a mere shadow or type, but a Psalm referring directly to the Messiah. So does Hebrews.

So remind me, when the Bible says Jesus will come again on the clouds with power and glory, and that He will set up His kingdom, where does it say anything about Him having a queen? Specifically Mary?

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It doesn't, but it says he has a mother, and that is what we mean by queen.

Constantine the Sinner said:

I don't consider it a mere shadow or type, but a Psalm referring directly to the Messiah. So does Hebrews.

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Yes, it points to Christ, not Mary.

Constantine the Sinner said:

It doesn't, but it says he has a mother, and that is what we mean by queen.

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Sure, but my question is not how do you see her, but how does Scripture portray her?

amariselle said:

Yes, it points to Christ, not Mary.

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Who is the queen who sits on his right hand? The one all generations will exalt?

Sure, but my question is not how do you see her, but how does Scripture portray her?

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Scripture portrays her as the Mother of the Lord Almighty, utterly graced, exalted by angels, and to be hailed as blessed by all generations.

Constantine the Sinner said:

Who is the queen who sits on his right hand? The one all generations will exalt?

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The Bible doesn't actually say there is such a heavenly queen that sits at Jesus' right hand. So, I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Constantine the Sinner said:

Scripture portrays her as the Mother of the Lord Almighty, utterly graced, exalted by angels, and to be hailed as blessed by all generations.

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"Exalted by angels"? Yes, we call her "blessed", but that doesn't equal venerating her.

Jesus would have mentioned that if we were supposed to, I would think. Or the other inspired Scripture writers.

St. Luke was the first Iconographer of The Church.

Guess which one.

Apostle Luke - OrthodoxWiki

Forgive me...

amariselle said:

The Bible doesn't actually say there is such a heavenly queen that sits at Jesus' right hand. So, I guess we'll have to wait and see.

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If the Psalm is referring to Christ in Psalms 45:6-7, then it absolute says that there is a queen at his right hand in Psalms 45:9.

"Exalted by angels"?

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Yes, I would call her salutation an exaltation.

Yes, we call her "blessed", but that doesn't equal venerating her.

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If anyone is worthy of veneration, she is, as she is given a higher place than anyone else in creation throughout the Bible.

Jesus would have mentioned that if we were supposed to, I would think. Or the other inspired Scripture writers.

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Luke 1 exalts her more than anyone else in the Bible save obviously the Almighty. So she is clearly worthy of veneration, unless veneration is prohibited by the Bible.