Modern day Pharisees versus the ones in the Bible

Peter J Barban

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ike I said earlier, you start pulling on that thread, pretty soon you can't know anything for certain, not even the Gospel of our salvation in Christ.
I hate to see people use such logic:
Axiom 1: Matthew shows Jesus railing against the Pharisees.
Axiom 2: I think most of this negativity is quite undeserved.
Axiom 3: Jesus is always right.
Conclusion: Matthew is lying.

When I see a conflict between what I think and the Bible evidence, I assume that I am wrong and adjust my thought. And this has happened many times.

Back to the OP, while there are hypocrite Christians and there are harsh Christians, and possibly there are some harsh, hypocritical Christians, there are no Pharisee Christians in the modern world. "Pharisee" is just a projection that we falsely put on others.
 
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amariselle

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I hate to see people use such logic:
Axiom 1: Matthew shows Jesus railing against the Pharisees.
Axiom 2: I think most of this negativity is quite undeserved.
Axiom 3: Jesus is always right.
Conclusion: Matthew is lying.

When I see a conflict between what I think and the Bible evidence, I assume that I am wrong and adjust my thought. And this has happened many times.

Back to the OP, while there are hypocrite Christians and there are harsh Christians, and possibly there are some harsh, hypocritical Christians, there are no Pharisee Christians in the modern world. "Pharisee" is just a projection that we falsely put on others.

I think it can be, and often is, thrown around falsely, but I do believe that there is the possibility to be "pharisaical" even among Christians.

The Pharisees, for instance, were well known for their zeal for the Law (as Paul also said about himself in regard to being a "Pharisee of the Pharisees"). The problem was, however, that they didn't practice what they preached, they did so much for show, to be admired by others, and they saddled people with unbearable religious burdens and demands. (Rules about rules about rules).

Jesus, in contrast, says His burden is light. Ultimately, we are not to lord it over one another or to boast in anything but what Christ has done. We cannot and do not earn our salvation, so boasting is excluded.

God bless :)
 
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stuart lawrence

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Well, first of all, to answer this we have to have an understanding. There were TWO sects of Pharisees, not one. Basically Christianity sees a rebuke on Pharisees and assumes it means ALL Pharisees and yet once you understand the difference between the two schools you realize that ALL BUT ONE rebuke was against one school. Let me explain...

Beit (school or house) of Shammai was a Pharisaical school that taught "Letter of the Law." Beit Hillel (which by the way, is where Paul went) taught "Spirit of the Law." What is the difference? Those that adhered to the letter were stricter, less merciful, and went letter by letter with no ability to factor in intent. The Spirit of the law factors in intent. For example... to commit adultery is not just the physical "act" because Yeshua plainly showed us that to lust in the heart is just like doing the act itself. The Letter of the law group would not have made this connection. Moreover, the letter of the law crowd were more apt to trying to make the community adhere to their understanding and their interpretation. This is legalism... when we try to make others adhere to our beliefs or we reject them... that is legalism.

I felt the need to make that distinction because one could be a Pharisee and a servant of the Lord. This is why it was OK for Paul, making his defense for his LIFE, said, "I am a Pharisee" (Acts 23:6) not "I was." So the Pharisees TODAY would be those who pass decrees or make bylaws that create a small group that rejects any and all who are outside of their belief system. Those would be the legalistic ones, the ones who need to be corrected.
Imagine those who demand the letter of the law is strictly obeyed, to those who understand the Spirit of the law, in respect of the true demands of it. They would be crushed, oppressed, downtrodden etc wouldn't they. For no one can obey strictly the true Spirit of the law. If they could, Jesus need not have died at calvary.
Was Saul the pharisee more merciful because he was raised following the Spirit of the law, rather than the letter of the law? I don't get that impression from reading the bible
 
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stuart lawrence

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It's a mistake calling modern Christians as Pharisees. The modern equivalent of the ancient Jewish Pharisee is the Muslim Taliban.

Calling Christians that you don't like Pharisees is probably sin.
Well if you don't practice what you preach/ demand of others, you are certainly acting like a pharisee in that respect
 
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Peter J Barban

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Well if you don't practice what you preach/ demand of others, you are certainly acting like a pharisee in that respect
This is true. And we have a clear word for those who do not practice what they preach - hypocrite - false mask.

The danger of labeling someone as a Pharisee is that people see Pharisees as unbelievers, unspiritual and enemies of Jesus. So when we call someone a Pharisee (especially in a public sphere) we are placing a heavy (assumed but unspoken) accusation against them. I believe that falsely accusing someone a Pharisee grieves the Holy Spirit,
 
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JackRT

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If Matthew is creating false quotes of Jesus, then his gospel is a fraud, and should not be trusted. Is there any evidence that Matthew is putting words in Jesus' mouth, words that he never said? If not, then JackRT is slandering Matthew and the Bible.

You are trying to apply modern standards of historical research to something that is not just 2000 years old but also is not history. The gospels are an interpretive narrative written in the Hebrew/Jewish literary style of haggadic midrash. I do not slander either GMatthew or the Bible by recognizing what they are.
 
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Peter J Barban

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You are trying to apply modern standards of historical research to something that is not just 2000 years old but also is not history. The gospels are an interpretive narrative written in the Hebrew/Jewish literary style of haggadic midrash. I do not slander either GMatthew or the Bible by recognizing what they are.
That is your opinion. Do you have any evidence that Matthew put words into Jesus' mouth?
 
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JackRT

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That is your opinion. Do you have any evidence that Matthew put words into Jesus' mouth?

In his gospel, Mark makes 21 references in all to the scribes and 19 of these, like Mark 12:38-40, were hostile. We really do not know who wrote this or any of the other three gospels since the names were only given to them about a century after they were written. It is pretty obvious that the early Christian community for whom Mark wrote held the scribe in very low esteem. Was this opinion shared by the other evangelists? When Matthew wrote his gospel some 10 years later, he had a copy of Mark open on the desk in front of him as he wrote. We know this because of the 664 verses in Mark, Matthew included 606 of them, in one way or another, into his gospel. Of the 19 negative references to scribes in Mark, Matthew dropped 7 completely, kept 6 intact and altered 6 so as to remove the negativity. Matthew's community obviously regarded the scribe in higher esteem.
 
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Godlovesmetwo

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"Pharisee" is just a projection that we falsely put on others.
Could be right.
I think it has just become a broad term now to mean anyone who prefers talking the Gospel to walking it.
 
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amariselle

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Could be right.
I think it has just become a broad term now to mean anyone who prefers talking the Gospel to walking it.

There's a place for both I think:

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! - Romans 10:14-15

21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. - 1 Corinthians 1:21
 
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Hawkins

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And may I ask how were the Pharisees different to todays Pharisees?

Not much difference. Pharisees were not ready for the coming of Christ.

God's prophets will be active in 3 periods of time, namely the crafting of OT, the crafting of NT and when the end draws near. Today's Pharisees will be those advocating that there won't be prophets sent after the Bible being done. They are thus not ready for the coming of end time prophets and possibly the coming of Christ Himself.

They tend to follow the wrong line of reasoning to say that "because there are too many false prophets that true prophets no longer exist". By the same token of reasoning, because there are too many false gods that...does the true God exist or not?!
 
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YHWH_will_uplift

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"For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven."
- Matthew 5:20

Here Jesus is clear that the ancient and modern Pharisees can be identified by their external show of righteousness and are not different from each other principally speaking. To only have the appearance of righteousness is insincere as it is not coming from the heart. So, Jesus is in reality attacking all hypocrites: the Pharisees just happened to be an example He used to illustrate hypocrisy.
 
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Halbhh

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They were actually quite right to be interested in all of the Law not just the parts dealing with love and justice. Being a descendant of Abraham carried with it certain responsibilities toward the community and the Temple and the Law and ritual. I would fault them more for their priorities as they seem to have been more interested in ritual law than the love and justice part.

We agree. They needed to include that love and justice (in their following the law in that time), and not fail to include it!

They needed to get to "in spirit and in truth", and not mere appearances of pretending to be righteous, hiding wrongs.

To do that good, we must have faith, as you know. (but it's helpful even when we know this to still re read John chapter 15, v1-17 even when we have already in a year)

His message, is of course, as you know, still our instruction now. No matter if anyone we know doesn't, or even does wrong towards us, even then, still.
 
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SolomonVII

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Virtue signaling definition
Virtue signalling is the expression or promotion of viewpoints that are especially valued within a social group, especially when this is done primarily to enhance the social standing of the speaker.

I think what is called virtue signalling is what follows closely to what the Pharisees are doing. We all want to appear as good people, but know that we are not. So what we do is recognize what society expects good people to do, and signal to others that we are good in ways that we are expected to be. It is not just pride, or a false sense of pride, in not humbly projecting ourselves as the sinners we are to the world. As often as not, we signal our virtue by emphasizing that we are not like "them", the hoi polloi of any given society that the people on top of the chain detest. The hoi polloi that the Pharisees signalled their virtue against were people like Jesus and his rag tag band of followers.
Today, the target that most people signal their virtue against is right wing and Traditional Christian values. "I am not a sexist, like those right wing Christians", I am not a racist like those right wing Christians-Look at me, at how I snarl at them!! See look at my virtue".
Hypocrisy is often considered to be having a high set of standards, and not living up to them. There is some truth to that, as long as society as a whole believes in those standards, and we are only pretending to live up to those standards. To not live up to those standards that we otherwise believe in and adore, and to not pretend, does not make us a hypocrite. It only makes us sinners, perpetually throwing ourselves at the mercy of God.
As long as we believe in the standard, the standard is a living breathing thing. Sinning does not break the standard; it in fact confirms it. But only pretending to believe makes the standard stale, and that is where hypocrisy begins to rear its ugly head.
However, to drop all pretense of believing in that high standard is often where society is at right now when it comes to traditional Christian values. For someone to muck around with girls under their desk because this is the standard they hold themselves, does not make someone a hypocrite, one might suppose. For them, and for the society that rejects that high standard, they are no longer hypocrites.
They are just evil, nothing more, nothing less.
Of course secular society has developed its own post-Christian set of higher values and standards, and this is where the virtue signalling and hypocrisy exists today. Nobody believes that girls and boys are interchangeable terms, for example. But to the extent that we are expect to echo that higher standard, we all are "look at me, aren't those Christians who want ladies with penises not to have showers with their children in the ladies room just awful, awful people!!"
when we echo standards that we don't believe in in order to look good in the eyes of those with power over us, we act like the Pharisees did. That is where the bigger hypocrisy exists today.
 
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Halbhh

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Virtue signaling definition
Virtue signalling is the expression or promotion of viewpoints that are especially valued within a social group, especially when this is done primarily to enhance the social standing of the speaker.

I think what is called virtue signalling is what follows closely to what the Pharisees are doing. We all want to appear as good people, but know that we are not. So what we do is recognize what society expects good people to do, and signal to others that we are good in ways that we are expected to be. It is not just pride, or a false sense of pride, in not humbly projecting ourselves as the sinners we are to the world. As often as not, we signal our virtue by emphasizing that we are not like "them", the hoi polloi of any given society that the people on top of the chain detest. The hoi polloi that the Pharisees signalled their virtue against were people like Jesus and his rag tag band of followers.
Today, the target that most people signal their virtue against is right wing and Traditional Christian values. "I am not a sexist, like those right wing Christians", I am not a racist like those right wing Christians-Look at me, at how I snarl at them!! See look at my virtue".
Hypocrisy is often considered to be having a high set of standards, and not living up to them. There is some truth to that, as long as society as a whole believes in those standards, and we are only pretending to live up to those standards. To not live up to those standards that we otherwise believe in and adore, and to not pretend, does not make us a hypocrite. It only makes us sinners, perpetually throwing ourselves at the mercy of God.
As long as we believe in the standard, the standard is a living breathing thing. Sinning does not break the standard; it in fact confirms it. But only pretending to believe makes the standard stale, and that is where hypocrisy begins to rear its ugly head.
However, to drop all pretense of believing in that high standard is often where society is at right now when it comes to traditional Christian values. For someone to muck around with girls under their desk because this is the standard they hold themselves, does not make someone a hypocrite, one might suppose. For them, and for the society that rejects that high standard, they are no longer hypocrites.
They are just evil, nothing more, nothing less.
Of course secular society has developed its own post-Christian set of higher values and standards, and this is where the virtue signalling and hypocrisy exists today. Nobody believes that girls and boys are interchangeable terms, for example. But to the extent that we are expect to echo that higher standard, we all are "look at me, aren't those Christians who want ladies with penises not to have showers with their children in the ladies room just awful, awful people!!"
when we echo standards that we don't believe in in order to look good in the eyes of those with power over us, we act like the Pharisees did. That is where the bigger hypocrisy exists today.

In contrast to the real Pharisee attitude (more at the end), most virtue signaling is about another thing is my estimation, based on people I've known.

My sense in a variety of churches in different parts of the country that I've been when I've attended enough to really know (like more than 20 times) is they they tamp this down in various ways pretty thoroughly. For instance, these midwestern Lutherans I've gotten to know recently seem to deal with this by effacing themselves most often. For some, repeatedly reminding us of their sins, that they are 'not a sweet smelling rose' or whatever funny words they have for that, another kind of effacing. For a fair number there is instead a kind of stern quiet stoic demeanor it seems. They aren't that bad, but it does take a while to get to the point they will crack a smile, if you aren't of that culture and know the right cues.

In contrast the Church of Christ background from Austin I had partly come from is as different from all that as night and day. They hide, carefully, their charity, as Christ instructed. It happens a lot I finally figured out, but is even hard to uncover even in your own family, even if it's ongoing. An example is me helping my Grandfather do 'recycling' of high quality office paper in the early 70s....turned out that it wasn't for mother Earth, but for a charity, and I had zero idea, even after hours of work on multiple occasions, and years of time, and only found out by reminiscing with my Grandmother after he passed away, about 40 years later. It's like that. The left hand really didn't know what the right hand did.

They also put 0% importance in their....graceful social interaction, the total welcome of any normal looking stranger (but only some would welcome the out of the norm back in the 70s when I was in that church), effusive, but this is down there merely the norm, the only way that anyone is to be, to begin with, no credit for that. But you will get grim expressions if you aren't acting right. (I got more than one or two in my twenties when they guessed I was having sex without marriage). So, it's like the reverse of the problem you are addressing really. You have to be up to snuff or you get excluded. Being up to snuff is considered only a mere norm, of no note.

My observation about the problem you are addressing is that it doesn't show up for most in-person interactions except in a certain way -- a person trying to meet their own internal need to not to feel bad about themselves, to try to medicate their chronic feeling of some kind, such as feeling they may seem unacceptable. They fight an old feeling.

They want to avoid that old feeling, and not feel they are a bad person. This is due to earlier conditioning of some kind, having nothing much to do with their actual adequacy or progress, but instead an emotional need from early in life I think, usually. So, sympathy to them is a good response then. In other words, imagine if you were in their shoes, and be kind to them.

Finally, about the real Pharisee attitude, in the gospels it comes across as self-righteous. It's not about desperate for approval, but is instead a whole 'nuther thing. It's about 'I'm better than those people'. That nasty attitude, judgemental and superior.
 
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SolomonVII

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Finally, about the real Pharisee attitude, in the gospels it comes across as self-righteous. It's not about desperate for approval, but is instead a whole 'nuther thing. It's about 'I'm better than those people'. That nasty attitude, judgemental and superior.

Mathew23(Jesus) said:
All their works are performed to be seen. They widen their phylacteries and lengthen their tassels.* d They love places of honor at banquets, seats of honor in synagogues,

There is a certain ironic charm about the folks that you describe in your observations, trying to be the humblest of the humble, as per Gospel exhortation to be humble. The humble being exalted sets up an oxymoronic sort of situation.
As for the pharisees not seeking approval, it would seem to me that that is exactly what Jesus is saying that they are doing. To be sure they are doing it heartlessly, arrogantly, and mercilessly, setting themselves as foil to those who they want to project themselves as superior to.
When it came to medieval Christianity and sin, there were the seven deadlies. One did even not have to take off one's shoes to count them on the fingers and toes. When it comes to the micro-aggressions of today's moral police, there have to be seven hundred, with new ones added every day. Like the pharisees of old, weighing down the hoi polloi with restriction after endless petty restriction, the world in which stating that "there is only one race, the human race" is deemed to be microaggression racism, the whole purpose of these petty restrictions to to build the modern pharisees up by keeping others down.
It is all about keeping your seat of honor at the banquet table too. It does not matter what is racism or sexism, or what isn't. It is immaterial if the races or sexes get ahead or not as a result of the rules being set in order. Virtue signalling is all about the facade beign maintained, in order that the position of CEO of diversity and equality remains intact for the 'pharisees' involved.
 
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Halbhh

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There is a certain ironic charm about the folks that you describe in your observations, trying to be the humblest of the humble, as per Gospel exhortation to be humble. The humble being exalted sets up an oxymoronic sort of situation.
As for the pharisees not seeking approval, it would seem to me that that is exactly what Jesus is saying that they are doing. To be sure they are doing it heartlessly, arrogantly, and mercilessly, setting themselves as foil to those who they want to project themselves as superior to.
When it came to medieval Christianity and sin, there were the seven deadlies. One did even not have to take off one's shoes to count them on the fingers and toes. When it comes to the micro-aggressions of today's moral police, there have to be seven hundred, with new ones added every day. Like the pharisees of old, weighing down the hoi polloi with restriction after endless petty restriction, the world in which stating that "there is only one race, the human race" is deemed to be microaggression racism, the whole purpose of these petty restrictions to to build the modern pharisees up by keeping others down.
It is all about keeping your seat of honor at the banquet table too. It does not matter what is racism or sexism, or what isn't. It is immaterial if the races or sexes get ahead or not as a result of the rules being set in order. Virtue signalling is all about the facade beign maintained, in order that the position of CEO of diversity and equality remains intact for the 'pharisees' involved.

Right. It's what you say, and what I said, all of the above, and even that it's not full pharisee really unless it's all of those, because a non-judgemental person trying to signal they did some good something can sometimes just be a person seeking approval, but not self righteous, etc., not much like the Pharisees Christ was judging in Matthew 23.
 
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pat34lee

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The ones who use Hell to scare others are vile too.

How many of Jesus' parables ended with some getting thrown into outer darkness,
where there would be weeping and gnashing of teeth?
What is hell after all, but separation from God?
The fiery lake is another matter.
 
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