Who/what are the four horsemen of the apocalypse?

victorinus said:

thank you -
I agree with the other three -
-but-
what did medo\persia do that would make them a beast?

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The word "beast" is just an old English word for animal. It's calling these animal illustrations of these empires "beasts" whereas today we would use the word animals.

mark kennedy said:

Actually it's both, those empires are still with us and represented in the description of the Beast from the Sea. I realize we have a number of differences here but it just seems to me the Daniel 7 is an elaboration of the same kingdoms described in Daniel 2.

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So what happened? Why did God find it necessary to repeate the same message in Daniel 7 that he received in Daniel 2? Was there something lacking in the vision of the great statue that needed to be repeated in chapter 7?

victorinus said:

how does one become a futurist?

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I've always been a futurist. I just can't imagine that God would leave out the most troublesome times in the history of this world. Jesus return is in my view clearly surrounded with a series of events that have never passed. I've looked at th other views and futurism is the one I believe to be true.

Hal A Peno said:

So what happened? Why did God find it necessary to repeate the same message in Daniel 7 that he received in Daniel 2? Was there something lacking in the vision of the great statue that needed to be repeated in chapter 7?

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It's a progressive revelation, it's expanded again later in the book of Daniel and even in Revelations.

Daniel Martinovich said:

Daniels vison in chapter 8 clarify the 2nd empire as the Medo\Persian Empire. Verse 20.
Daniel 8 1. In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar a vision appeared to me, Daniel, after that which appeared to me at the first. 2. And I saw in a vision; and it came to pass, when I saw, that I was at Shushan in the palace, which is in the province of Elam; and I saw in the vision, that I was by the river of Ulai. 3. Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, look, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last. 4. I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no animals might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great. 5. And as I was considering, behold, a male goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, not touching the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes. 6. And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran up to him in the fury of his power. 7. And I saw him come close to the ram, and he was moved with rage against him, and struck the ram, and broke his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand. 8. Therefore the male goat became very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and in it's place came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven. 9. And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which grew exceedingly great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. 10. And it grew great, even to the army of heaven; and it cast down some of the army and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. 11. Yes, he magnified himself even to the ruler of the army, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. 12. And an army was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practiced, and prospered. 13. Then I heard one holy one speaking, and another holy said to that certain holy one which spoke, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the army to be trodden under foot? 14. And he said to me, Until two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed. 15. And it came to pass, when I, Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, look, there stood before me as the appearance of a man. 16. And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man understand the vision. 17. So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said to me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall the vision be. 18. Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright. 19. And he said, look, I will make you understand what shall be in the final period of wrath: for at the time appointed the end shall be. 20. The ram which you saw having the two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. 21. And the rough goat is the king of Greece: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king. 22. Now that being broken, whereas four stood in its place, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power. 23. And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce expression, skilled in intrigues, shall stand up. 24. And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and accomplish, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. 25. And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand. 26. And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut up the vision; for it shall be for many days. 27. And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it.

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Daniel 8 doesn't clarify the 2nd empire as the Medo-Persian Empire in verse 20. It describes the second empire as the smaller horn that came up first, the MEDES!
It does show us that the Medo-Persian empire is comprised of the Medes and Persian's, bur the chapter actually proves that the kingdom of the Medes is the 'inferior ingdom.'
I would first like to remind you that Daniel, Isaiah's, and Jeremiah's prophecies ascribe the conquest and destruction of Babylon to the Medes.

Daniel 5:31
"And Darius the Median took the kingdom, (Babylon) being about threescore and two years old."

Isaiah 13:17
"Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, ie.(Babylon)

Jeremiah 51:11 Make bright the arrows; gather the shields: the LORD hath raised up the spirit of the kings of the Medes: for his device is against Babylon, to destroy it; because it is the vengeance of the LORD, the vengeance
of his temple.

Daniel 8:3 explains the inferior kingdom.

I was by the river of Ulai. Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had [two] horns: and the [two] horns [were] high; but one [was] higher than the other, and the higher came up last. I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither [was there any] that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great.

Daniel 8:19-21
And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end [shall be]. The ram which thou sawest having [two] horns [are] the kings of Media and Persia.

The higher horn that came up last is the Persian Empire. The other horn, the one that was not as high (smaller/inferior) that came up first is the Medes. The two eventually merged into the ram or the Persian Empire. This means that the Medes are the smaller kingdom that emerged first as the inferior kingdom of Daniel 2.

Hal A Peno said:

So what happened? Why did God find it necessary to repeate the same message in Daniel 7 that he received in Daniel 2? Was there something lacking in the vision of the great statue that needed to be repeated in chapter 7?

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Yeah details. Every single vison provided more details.

Hal A Peno said:

Daniel 8 doesn't clarify the 2nd empire as the Medo-Persian Empire in verse 20. It describes the second empire as the smaller horn that came up first, the MEDES!
It does show us that the Medo-Persian empire is comprised of the Medes and Persian's, bur the chapter actually proves that the kingdom of the Medes is the 'inferior ingdom.'
I would first like to remind you that Daniel, Isaiah's, and Jeremiah's prophecies ascribe the conquest and destruction of Babylon to the Medes.

Daniel 5:31
"And Darius the Median took the kingdom, (Babylon) being about threescore and two years old."

Isaiah 13:17
"Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, ie.(Babylon)

Jeremiah 51:11 Make bright the arrows; gather the shields: the LORD hath raised up the spirit of the kings of the Medes: for his device is against Babylon, to destroy it; because it is the vengeance of the LORD, the vengeance
of his temple.

Daniel 8:3 explains the inferior kingdom.

I was by the river of Ulai. Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had [two] horns: and the [two] horns [were] high; but one [was] higher than the other, and the higher came up last. I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither [was there any] that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great.

Daniel 8:19-21
And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end [shall be]. The ram which thou sawest having [two] horns [are] the kings of Media and Persia.

The higher horn that came up last is the Persian Empire. The other horn, the one that was not as high (smaller/inferior) that came up first is the Medes. The two eventually merged into the ram or the Persian Empire. This means that the Medes are the smaller kingdom that emerged first as the inferior kingdom of Daniel 2.

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All that to avoid the obvious, the Roman Empire? So then it's all just false prophecy because the he goat had four horns, 5 counting the first making....lets see 8 empires. So there is nothing to four empires and then an age of promise.

Daniel Martinovich said:

All that to avoid the obvious, the Roman Empire? So then it's all just false prophecy because the he goat had four horns, 5 counting the first making....lets see 8 empires. So there is nothing to four empires and then an age of promise.

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All that to get things right. Some people who interpreted Rome as the lesgs of iron actually started with the legs of iron as Rome and worked their way up because they were convinced Rome was the 'legs of iron'.

You haven't explained why Daniel, Jeremiah, and Isaiah's prophecy ascribe the taking of Babylon to Darius and the Medes. You haven't explained how Medo-Persia could be 'land inferior' to Babylon when it was 3 times the size. You haven't commented on the "smaller horn that came up first" and how that describes the inferior kingdom.

Cyrus married Darius' sister. (some say his cousin) The Medes and Persians were confederate and they each had their own languages. Darius and his troops went into battle and took out Babylon just like Daniel says. Being allies, it was the custom of that day for the elder to be first in battle, and Darius was older. He also had some help from Persian troops but mostly in the form of logistics. The Median kingdom occupied Babylon for only a few years (about 5-6) before the Persian's under Cyrus had what I would call a family coup, where only about 100 people died to take over the kingdom. Then they combined their efforts under Cyrus and Darius remained king over a different province in the kingdom, then they became the 'Ram' or the (MEDO)Persian empire, the third kingdom of brass conquered by Greece.
One more thing,...

The word mixed used to describe the toes mingled with iron and clay is the Aramaic word "arab." It means mixed and it denotes an Arabian or Arabia. (Gesenius) I would like to know how people associate this word with ROME, ITALY

http://www.bluelette...ngs=H6151&t=KJV
Daniel 2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

Hal A Peno said:

All that to get things right. Some people who interpreted Rome as the lesgs of iron actually started with the legs of iron as Rome and worked their way up because they were convinced Rome was the 'legs of iron'.

You haven't explained why Daniel, Jeremiah, and Isaiah's prophecy ascribe the taking of Babylon to Darius and the Medes. You haven't explained how Medo-Persia could be 'land inferior' to Babylon when it was 3 times the size. You haven't commented on the "smaller horn that came up first" and how that describes the inferior kingdom.

Cyrus married Darius' sister. (some say his cousin) The Medes and Persians were confederate and they each had their own languages. Darius and his troops went into battle and took out Babylon just like Daniel says. Being allies, it was the custom of that day for the elder to be first in battle, and Darius was older. He also had some help from Persian troops but mostly in the form of logistics. The Median kingdom occupied Babylon for only a few years (about 5-6) before the Persian's under Cyrus had what I would call a family coup, where only about 100 people died to take over the kingdom. Then they combined their efforts under Cyrus and became the 'Ram' or the Persian empire, the third kingdom of brass conquered by Greece.
One more thing,...

The word mixed used to describe the toes mingled with iron and clay is the Aramaic word "arab." It means mixed and it denotes an Arabian or Arabia. (Gesenius) I would like to know how people associate this word with ROME, ITALY

http://www.bluelette...ngs=H6151&t=KJV
Daniel 2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

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I simply don't see don't see the problem your having. Other than wanting to not see the obvious about the Roman Empire. Daniel 8 calls the ram the kings of the Medes and Persians. Or the Medo\Persian empire. So it is right and you are wrong about it.

3. Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, look, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last. 4. I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no animals might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great. 5. And as I was considering, behold, a male goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, not touching the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes. 6. And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran up to him in the fury of his power. 7. And I saw him come close to the ram, and he was moved with rage against him, and struck the ram, and broke his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.......20. The ram which you saw having the two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

Daniel Martinovich said:

I simply don't see don't see the problem your having. Other than wanting to not see the obvious about the Roman Empire. Daniel 8 calls the ram the kings of the Medes and Persians. Or the Medo\Persian empire. So it is right and you are wrong about it.

3. Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, look, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last. 4. I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no animals might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great. 5. And as I was considering, behold, a male goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, not touching the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes. 6. And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran up to him in the fury of his power. 7. And I saw him come close to the ram, and he was moved with rage against him, and struck the ram, and broke his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.......20. The ram which you saw having the two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

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Even when there's a mountain of evidence against them, people fight it tooth and nail and adhere to what they believe. You will come out of denial on it someday, it's become somewhat of a fad.
Daniel 7 may have something to do with the four horsemen. In any case, Daniel 7 isn't future, and ancient Babylon isn't the lion with eagles wings. This is a beast yet to come....probably already here.

The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.

Hal A Peno said:

Even when there's a mountain of evidence against them, people fight it tooth and nail and adhere to what they believe. You will come out of denial on it someday, it's become somewhat of a fad.
Daniel 7 may have something to do with the four horsemen. In any case, Daniel 7 isn't future, and ancient Babylon isn't the lion with eagles wings. This is a beast yet to come....probably already here.

The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.

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Awful strange that both prophecies, Daniel 2 & 7 both have four kingdoms and then the Kingdom of God fills the earth. That you would say these are not the same four yet in both accounts the Kingdom of God fills the earth at the end of the fourth one.
Daniel 2:34. You looked until that a stone was cut out without hands, which struck the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and broke them to pieces.35:......and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth....44. And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it will crush and bring to an end all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Daniel 7:11. I was looking then because of the sound of the great words which the horn spoke: I looked until the (fourth) animal was killed, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. 12. As concerning the rest of the animals, they had their empires taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.13. I saw in the night visions, and look, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14. And there was given him an empire, and glory, and dominion, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his empire is an everlasting empire, which shall not pass away, and his dominion that which shall not be destroyed......(This is the interpritation of the prevoius verses) 22. Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom. 23. So he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be different from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and crush it. .......26. But the court will sit, and they shall take away his empire, to consume and to destroy it until the end. 27. And the kingdom and empire, and the greatness of the dominion under the whole heaven, will be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all empires shall serve and obey him.

Awful coincidental that Daniel 8 describes the Greek empire being divided up into four sections that mirrors Daniel 7's description of the third empire.

Daniel 7:. After this I was looking, and saw another, like a leopard, which had on its back of it four wings of a bird; the animal also had four heads; and an empire was given to it.

Daniel 8:5. And as I was considering, behold, a male goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, not touching the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes...... 8. Therefore the male goat became very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and in it's place came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.......21. And the rough goat is the king of Greece: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king. 22. Now that being broken, whereas four stood in its place, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power

Daniel Martinovich said:

The word "beast" is just an old English word for animal. It's calling these animal illustrations of these empires "beasts" whereas today we would use the word animals.

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really? -
well it just so happens that three of them did something awful to the temple
-and-
there is a fourth one that is with us now

Daniel Martinovich said:

Awful strange that both prophecies, Daniel 2 & 7 both have four kingdoms and then the Kingdom of God fills the earth. That you would say these are not the same four yet in both accounts the Kingdom of God fills the earth at the end of the fourth one.

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It could be said that Daniel 2 has five. People think the 'arms of silver are the Medes because of '2 arms and 2 confererate kingdoms'. The number four is meaningless when comparing two different visions.
The iron and clay is an end-time group of people, and the bronze, silver, and gold aren't.

Daniel 2:34. You looked until that a stone was cut out without hands, which struck the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and broke them to pieces.35:

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The entire image is destroyed. They are all Mid-East kingdoms. Rome is excluded.

......and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth....44.

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That's Jesus destroying the iron and clay whic is the only unfulfilled portion of the image, as well as the rest of the statue, (area of ancient Mid-East kingdoms) when he returns to establish the millennial kingdom.

And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it will crush and bring to an end all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Jesus returns, he and Israel establish the millennial kingdom, the big battle/Armageddon, amen.

In Daniel 7, all four beast are end-time. The 'dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly;]' beast isn't associated with Daniel 2's gold, silver, and bronze. Only the legs of iron and toes mingled with iron and clay. Mingled, 'arab.'

The only things the same in Daniel's visions in chapter 2 and 7 is the final outcome of Jesus return, Armageddon, and establishment of the Millennial Kingdom.

Daniel 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

v.12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

Seems the lion, leorard, and bear survive the destruction of the fearful and dreaded beast like they're given a second chance, probably the separation of the sheep and goats.

Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 are similar only in the final result. The only end-time portion in Daniel 2 is the iron and clay which represents the two major sects of Islam, Sunni and Shia, AKA, the two horned beast. Whereas.....

Awful coincidental that Daniel 8 describes the Greek empire being divided up into four sections that mirrors Daniel 7's description of the third empire.

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......NONE of the beast in Daniel 7
Daniel chapter 7 was written in the first year of Belshazzar who was the last king of Babylon, about 35 years after Daniel's vision of the great statue in chapter 2. Chapter 7 depicts four end-time beast, and other than the end result of Jesus return, it has nothing to do with chapter 2. It's NOT a historical repeat of chapter 2. Why would God find it necessary to repeat the same message in two different visions by the same author? Why repeat the same sequence of kingdoms of Daniel 2 in chapter 7? Were there shortcomings in Daniel 2 that required repetition? Interpreters say that the Lion of Daniel 7 is Babylon.

How can the lion be Babylon when the date of the vision occurred in the first year of Belshazzar who was the last king of Babylon? The Babylonian Empire had already risen some 50 years before and was on it's way out when Daniel 7 was written! Why would Daniel prophesy about a kingdom that was already in existence for about 50 years and soon to end? Some atheist have actually caught onto this blunder and used it to debunk the bible by calling Daniel a false prophet which he would certainly be, since he prophesied about something already in existence.
this is my last post on Daniel, it's a major derailment.

forgive me...

Hal A Peno said:

It could be said that Daniel 2 has five. People think the 'arms of silver are the Medes because of '2 arms and 2 confererate kingdoms'. The number four is meaningless when comparing two different visions.
The iron and clay is an end-time group of people, and the bronze, silver, and gold aren't.

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No Rome is not excluded.

The entire image is destroyed. They are all Mid-East kingdoms. Rome is excluded. See, anyone can just be emphatic.

That's Jesus destroying the iron and clay whic is the only unfulfilled portion of the image, as well as the rest of the statue, (area of ancient Mid-East kingdoms) when he returns to establish the millennial kingdom.

And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it will crush and bring to an end all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Jesus returns, he and Israel establish the millennial kingdom, the big battle/Armageddon, amen.

In Daniel 7, all four beast are end-time. The 'dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly;]' beast isn't associated with Daniel 2's gold, silver, and bronze. Only the legs of iron and toes mingled with iron and clay. Mingled, 'arab.'

The only things the same in Daniel's visions in chapter 2 and 7 is the final outcome of Jesus return, Armageddon, and establishment of the Millennial Kingdom.

Daniel 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

v.12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

Seems the lion, leorard, and bear survive the destruction of the fearful and dreaded beast like they're given a second chance, probably the separation of the sheep and goats.

Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 are similar only in the final result. The only end-time portion in Daniel 2 is the iron and clay which represents the two major sects of Islam, Sunni and Shia, AKA, the two horned beast. Whereas.....

......NONE of the beast in Daniel 7
Daniel chapter 7 was written in the first year of Belshazzar who was the last king of Babylon, about 35 years after Daniel's vision of the great statue in chapter 2. Chapter 7 depicts four end-time beast, and other than the end result of Jesus return, it has nothing to do with chapter 2. It's NOT a historical repeat of chapter 2. Why would God find it necessary to repeat the same message in two different visions by the same author? Why repeat the same sequence of kingdoms of Daniel 2 in chapter 7? Were there shortcomings in Daniel 2 that required repetition? Interpreters say that the Lion of Daniel 7 is Babylon.

How can the lion be Babylon when the date of the vision occurred in the first year of Belshazzar who was the last king of Babylon? The Babylonian Empire had already risen some 50 years before and was on it's way out when Daniel 7 was written! Why would Daniel prophesy about a kingdom that was already in existence for about 50 years and soon to end? Some atheist have actually caught onto this blunder and used it to debunk the bible by calling Daniel a false prophet which he would certainly be, since he prophesied about something already in existence.
this is my last post on Daniel, it's a major derailment.

forgive me...

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Hal A Peno said:

So what happened? Why did God find it necessary to repeate the same message in Daniel 7 that he received in Daniel 2? Was there something lacking in the vision of the great statue that needed to be repeated in chapter 7?

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Daniel 2 is about World Governance UNDER SATAN (Babylon is the World Governed under Satan in Rev. 14, 16 and 18 which are all the same events.)

Daniel 7 is about Governments that Conquer, Enslave or Rule Israel. They cover the same Kingdoms for the Most part, but in Rev. when we see the Beast that arises out of the Sea (Gentile Sea of Nations) it incorporates all of the Nations (5 that have Fallen, one that IS and one that is YET TO COME) that will have Conquered/Ruled Israel throughout the History of Israel. Israel was under bondage to Egypt, then they became a Nation, Assyria took away the 10 Nations, then Babylon brought Judah unto Bondage in Babylon.

Persia brought the Jews into slavery but eventually allowed them to return and build their Temple. Greece then Conquered Persia and ruled Israel.

Rome was Ruling Israel when John wrote the book of Revelation.

The Anti-Christ will become the LAST BEAST when he Conquers Jerusalem.

1. Egypt is a Head
2. Assyria is a Head
3. Babylon is a Head
4. Persia is a Head
5. Greece is a Head
6. Rome is a Head
7. The Anti-Christ is a Head when he Conquers Jerusalem.

Daniel 2 is about World Governance, when Babylon is Destroyed in Revelation its the Whole World getting destroyed by the Plagues of God. Babylon is Fallen, is fallen.Rev. 14, Rev. 16 and Rev. 18 are the exact SAME EVENTS.

Daniel 7 is about Israel and 7 Kingdoms that come against them. That's why there is NO BEAST from Rome until Israel is Reborn in 1948. There can be NO BEAST if there is NO ISRAEL.

Revealing Times said:

Daniel 2 is about World Governance UNDER SATAN (Babylon is the World Governed under Satan in Rev. 14, 16 and 18 which are all the same events.)
Rome was Ruling Israel when John wrote the book of Revelation.

The Anti-Christ will become the LAST BEAST when he Conquers Jerusalem.

1. Egypt is a Head
2. Assyria is a Head
3. Babylon is a Head
4. Persia is a Head
5. Greece is a Head
6. Rome is a Head
7. The Anti-Christ is a Head when he Conquers Jerusalem.

Daniel 2 is about World Governance, when Babylon is Destroyed in Revelation its the Whole World getting destroyed by the Plagues of God. Babylon is Fallen, is fallen.Rev. 14, Rev. 16 and Rev. 18 are the exact SAME EVENTS.

Daniel 7 is about Israel and 7 Kingdoms that come against them. That's why there is NO BEAST from Rome until Israel is Reborn in 1948. There can be NO BEAST if there is NO ISRAEL.

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It doesn't matter that Rome ruled Israel back then. If I could find even one prophecy where it's implied I'd believe that it has something to do with the end, but I never have.

I do want to get away from Daniel 2 and 7 on this thread. I want to respond to the above because I can link one of the four horsemen to one of the beast in Revelation. And how do you know for sure that the ten horned beast Rev. 13 and 17 beast are the same?

Revelation 17:3-5 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

The woman and the beast. The woman is Islam and it's terror network of jihadist. The beast is a coming 10/7 alliance of nations dominated by the religion of Islam, who gave birth to the ideology of receiving virgins in paradise for committing the abominations of the earth. This 'beast occupied by a harlot' is most likely an Islamic Caliphate of sorts situated in East Jerusalem dominated by Islam. The heart of Islam wants to use the Dome area as their headquarters of this Caliphate which they believe is prophesied to become a worldwide Caliphate.

The words "sit upon" mean 'to occupy' or have a fixed abode. This means that the Islamic harlot, i.e. Babylon the Great, occupies East Jerusaalem AND is the religion of the beast and coming 10/7 Mid-East Islamic alliance of nations. There could also be two Caliphates prophesied in scripture in Daniel 11. One is the king of the North, the other the king of the south.

This BEAST with seven heads and ten horns IS NOT symbolic of a progression of ancient world empires.

These kings are all on the earth at the same time. This picture of a harlot sitting upon a 10 horned 7 headed beast is a complete end-time entity and the religion that occupies this beast is Babylon the Great "A LARGE FALSE RELIGION" AKA Islam, and its jihadist sects who fill her cup full of the abominations of the earth.

In Revelation 17 John is taken by the Spirit into the wilderness which is better translated "the desert," to be shown the judgment of the great harlot (Islam). The Desert is where Mecca and Medina reside. Many interpreters speculate this woman is Rome. But Rome doesn't reside in the desert. Islam has also been called "the desert religion." The birthplace of Babylon the Great and the harlot of Babylon is in the desert of Arabia a place called Mecca and Medina, called the Glory of Kedar in the OT. Makes you wonder why the experts point the finger toward Rome doesn't it?
Mecca happens to have seven entrances and ten spires or minaretes. Coincidence I suppose...



So how does this beast align with one of the horsemen?

This way...
Who/what are the four horsemen of the apocalypse?

Why would John prophesy about a future 7 headed 10 horned beast, that has 6 heads that rose several thousands of years earlier! A simple look at the text in the lexicons and interlinear helps us understand this. Not one element in the description of this beast comes from the past.

And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
Some translations say, "five have fallen."

FIVE ARE FALLEN....to interpret this as past empires is a mistake. ARE is present, fallen is past!
The word ARE is a third person plural present indicative. This passage isn't a reflection of PAST world empires. It is a picture of a complete end-time entity. There are seven kings, "FIVE FALL" is the correct translation. That's how it's worded in the interlinear. Just like the four beast Daniel prophesy's about in Daniel 7, these kings are all present on earth at the same time.

But without going into too much detail about the kings of Rev.17, four of the likely 5 candidates that are fallen are people like...

Muammar Gaddafi
Saddam Hussein
Hosni Mubarak
Osama bin laden

The man of sin who's spirit ascends out from the bottomless pit is the spirit of Nebuchadnezzar. Saddam Hussein believed he was the reincarnation of Nebuchadnezzar, and "the God of rebirth and resurrection."

So far, he's my choice...
Someone is an earlier post said the red horse is the man of sin, I believe they were right.

And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
East Jerusalem.

And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is,(Assad) and the other is not yet come;(Hussein) and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

11 And the beast that was, (Saddam/Nebuchadnezzar) and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

Saddam will return it seems. Probably to resue ISIS.

The two horned beast, sunni and Shia, again coincidence...

Hal A Peno said:

It doesn't matter that Rome ruled Israel back then. If I could find even one prophecy where it's implied I'd believe that it has something to do with the end, but I never have.

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Daniel 7:3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.

You clearly are in the wrong business (Prophecy) if you can't understand who the Four Beasts of Daniel are. Its not that hard to understand. 1, 2, 3, 4 and then Israel was no more. "Rome was not a BEAST of Iron because I have a personal interpretation" .........GET OUT !

Hal A Peno said:

I do want to get away from Daniel 2 and 7 on this thread. I want to respond to the above because I can link one of the four horsemen to one of the beast in Revelation. And how do you know for sure that the ten horned beast Rev. 13 and 17 beast are the same?

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How do we know a Seven Headed Beast of Daniel 12,13 and 17 are the SAME BEAST? Did you really ask that question? Of course you had to ask that question because it throws a kink in you interpretation about NO ROME BEAST HEAD, so we go from bad to worse as per interpretations. Yea, we see a Seven Headed Beast with 10 Horns spoken about every day....How do we know its the same BEAST...that's funny man, get out.

ROME IS (6th Head)..........That's why you had to say that. RIGHT?

Hal A Peno said:

The woman and the beast. The woman is Islam and it's terror network of jihadist. The beast is a coming 10/7 alliance of nations dominated by the religion of Islam, who gave birth to the ideology of receiving virgins in paradise for committing the abominations of the earth. This 'beast occupied by a harlot' is most likely an Islamic Caliphate of sorts situated in East Jerusalem dominated by Islam. The heart of Islam wants to use the Dome area as their headquarters of this Caliphate which they believe is prophesied to become a worldwide Caliphate.

The words "sit upon" mean 'to occupy' or have a fixed abode. This means that the Islamic harlot, i.e. Babylon the Great, occupies East Jerusaalem AND is the religion of the beast and coming 10/7 Mid-East Islamic alliance of nations. There could also be two Caliphates prophesied in scripture in Daniel 11. One is the king of the North, the other the king of the south.

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You got lost in the weeds somewhere down the line. The Harlot is not Islam per se. It is ALL FALSE RELIGION from Babylon to the End Times which does include Islam in it, but its only a PART OF the Harlot. The Woman SIT UPON means she was co-mingled with the Beast Governments, and False Religion has been a part of every False Government, even today's Governments are all headed by Humanism in the West and by Islam in much of the rest of the world.

The 10/7 idea you threw out is really way out there stuff. Islam as a PART of the Harlot and will be DESTROYED by the Kings of the Beasts................Revelation 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

The HARLOT DIES Brother. Islam will be destroyed by the Anti-Christ. The Harlot is also Hinduism, Buddhism, Witchcraft, and All False Religions throughout history. Islam will be destroyed. Islam is nothing basically in END TIME EVENTS.

Daniel 7:3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.
That's easy, four different beast.

You clearly are in the wrong business (Prophecy) if you can't understand who the Four Beasts of Daniel are.

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I'm in the wrong business of dealing with you maybe. I don't know who the four beast of Daniel are. As of now, I can only speculate.

Its not that hard to understand. 1, 2, 3, 4 and then Israel was no more. "Rome was not a BEAST of Iron because I have a personal interpretation, GET OUT !!"

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That makes no sense. And you're telling me I'm in the wrong business??? I don't have anything special over you other than I possess a sensible hermeneutic to figure these things out, and the willingness to change my mind. You don't. You fire from the hip.

How do we know a Seven Headed Beast of Daniel 12,13 and 17 are the SAME BEAST?

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You mean 'how do you know the beast of Daniel 2,7, and Rev. 13 and 17 are the same.'

Did you really ask that question?

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I asked it to you! you haven't answered, and I doubt I'll get any answers.

Of course you had to ask that question because it throws a kink in you interpretation about NO ROME BEAST HEAD, so we go from bad to worse per interpretations.

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I throw nothing in. I take nothing away. I try to do the right thing. If Rome were prophesied somewhere, I'd believe it. It's NOT!

Yea, we see a Seven Headed Beast with 10 Horns spoken about every day....How do we know its the same BEAST...that's funny man, get out.

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You're not so funny. Maybe an attempt to confront the issue would help you get it right.

ROME IS..........That's why you had to say that. RIGHT?

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More incoherence. Instead of jesting, why don't you put a little effort into this, it's the right thing to do.

You got lost in the weeds somewhere down the line.

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And I was going to ask you about weeds since you seem to be going round in circles.

The Harlot is not Islam per se. It is ALL FALSE RELIGION from Babylon to the End Times which does include Islam in it, but its only a PART OF the Harlot.

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How do all the false religions since Babylon 'sit upon' or OCCUPY this beast?
Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

The Woman SIT ON means she was co-mingled with the Beast Governments, and False Religion has been a part of every False Government, even today's Governments are all headed by Humanism in the West and by Islam in much of the world.

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SIT means to OCCUPY! It's all coincidence again I suppose....

The harlot promisses it's abominators a mansion with as many as 72 bedrooms with a virgin in each one, not to mention ISIS runs the largest prostitution ring in the world to include child brides.
Humanism has nothing to do with anything prophetic. This is the religion of Islam dominating a 10/7 alliance of nations/kings. No Italian connection whatsoever.

The 10/7 idea out threw out is really way out there stuff. Islam as a PART of the Harlot will be DESTROYED by the Kings of the Beast.....

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Revelation 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

The harlot being burned is probably symbolic of Mecca or Iran getting nuked.

The HARLOT DIES Brother. Islam will be destroyed by the Anti-Christ. The Harlot is also Hinduism, Buddhism, Witchcraft, and All False Religions throughout history. Islam will be destroyed. Islam is nothing basically in END TIME EVENTS

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How is one man going to destroy the followers of a religion 1.7 billion strong? Where do you find this idea in scripture. I've been asking people for years to show me where that is found in our bibles and guess what? ZILCH!

Babylon the Great means, "A large false religion." The verse should read,

"Islam, Babylon the Great, the Mother of jihadist and abominations of the earth."

Hal A Peno said:

Daniel 7:3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.
That's easy, four different beast.

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And who doesn't understand that? Just because in Revelation God showed John a vision of all the Beasts in one vision as having Seven Heads doesn't mean they were not different in their TIMES. Of course they were all different, every Head represents a different Kingdom, why wouldn't they all be different?

Hal A Peno said:

I'm in the wrong business of dealing with you maybe. I don't know who the four beast of Daniel are. As of now, I can only speculate.

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There is n speculation. We understand who the Four Beasts are by reading Daniel 7 and 8. Israel CEASED being a Nation in 70 AD - 125 AD or somewhere close to that. With no Israel, there is NO BEAST nor can there be a Beast. Each Kingdom in Daniel Conquered/Enslaved/Ruled Israel.

In Rev. 13 we see who incorporated into the Beast that arises from the Sea? A Lion, a Bear and a Leopard. Then we see a Mortally Wounded Head and a Revived Head. Babylon, Persia and Greece are all there, so we know these are the SAME BEASTS which also Arose out of the Sea. 2 + 2 = 4.

The Mortally wounded Head was Rome, as Rev. 17 stated, ONE IS and as John wrote Rev. ROME WAS, of course the Power. Then one is YET TO COME, that will be the Little Horn, and just as Daniel 7:11 states he will be cast straight into HELL, just like the Beast in Rev. 19:20.

Hal A Peno said:

That makes no sense. And you're telling me I'm in the wrong business??? I don't have anything special over you other than I possess a sensible hermeneutic to figure these things out, and the willingness to change my mind. You don't. You fire from the hip.

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I was quoting what your thinking has to be in order to stretch it unto "Rome is not the Fourth Beast" it was a play on words, maybe not a good one, my computer was about to go dead so I rushed it a tad bit. I have a Thread that Explains Revelations Chapter 17 in depth on this very site. I am not against people thinking in depth, but to not understand Rome is a Beast always just kind of amazes me to be truthful, I don't get it at all. Babylon, The Harlot and the Seven Headed Beast Explained

Hal A Peno said:

You mean 'how do you know the beast of Daniel 2,7, and Rev. 13 and 17 are the same.'

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I explained above. The Same Beasts are Mentioned in Revelation 13. The Bible is about Israel. The Beasts are Beasts to ISRAEL, if that were not the case then why wouldn't the USA be a BEAST? Why not the USSR, China, the British Empire or even the Ottoman Empire? Because its about ISRAEL. Nations that have Conquered, Enslaved or Ruled Israel, can we name them? YES, OF COURSE, they are Egypt, (Israel were in Bondage there and were freed by God Himself) Assyria, took away the 10 Tribes, Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome all Ruled/Conquered Israel. That is the Six Heads. From Daniel forth there are Five Heads counting the Little Horn/Beast/Anti-Christ. Adding in the other two give us all Seven Heads. There is no one else who have Conquered/Enslaved Israel.

From 125 AD until 1948 Israel was what? Ezekiel stated in his Prophecy they would be AS DEAD MEN'S BONES !! That is why the British Empire and Ottoman Empire can not be considered a BEAST, there was no Israel in the Land, they were dispersed the world over. BUT....What happened in 1948? Ezekiel's Prophecy was FULFILLED !! Son of Man, can these Bones Live Again Son of Man? YES...There can, and they have been REBORN as a Nation, now and only now can the SEVENTH HEAD of the Beast be loosed, the Anti-Christ/Little Horn.

My computer isn't charging, I play with it and it starts charging if I hold it just right so maybe I am a little impatient, I apologize if I come across as a little flabbergasted at times, I see so many people who have so many different ideas, and they can not all be of God, and that saddens me. We can't put forth interpretations of prophecy and say we hope its right, either we should say we understand or we are guessing.

Hal A Peno said:

You're not so funny. Maybe an attempt to confront the issue would help you get it right.

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Maybe the right word was amusing. There are THREE SEVEN HEADED 10 HORN BEASTS MENTIONED in Revelation. There are not different.

Hal A Peno said:

More incoherence. Instead of jesting, why don't you put a little effort into this, it's the right thing to do.

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5 have Fallen ONE IS (Which could only be ROME) That's was my point. ROME WAS or at Johns time he basically said ROME IS.

Hal A Peno said:

How do all the false religions since Babylon 'sit upon' or OCCUPY this beast?

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The HARLOT (ALL FALSE RELIGIONS) rides the Seven Headed Beast, those Seven Nations that came against Israel. Egypt served False Gods as did Assyria, and Babylon was the WORST OF ALL, she had 100's of False Gods and even more demi-gods, Astrology came from BABYLON. Persia served False Gods, Greece and Rome are known for their many False gods. Why do you think the BEAST (His 10 Kings) kills the HARLOT? He wants to be worshiped as the ONLY GOD !! There will be no place for Islam, or any Religion, he tries to come after Israel but can only kill 2/3 the other 1/3 FLEE into the Wilderness. He then gets angry that he can't get at her and goes after the REMNANT of the Church, the ones that became Christians after the Rapture, thus they are called the REMNANT of those that keep Gods commandments and Worship Jesus Christ. ITS A THEME, the Anti-Christ will destroy ALL RELIGIONS thus the Harlot is KILLED OFF !! Why do you think the Kings in Rev. 17:16 hate the Harlot but in Rev. 18 cry and lament when Babylon or the WORLD/World Governance is burned/destroyed? Because the HARLOT rides the BEASTS back, they are Separate entities, of course.

1. Harlot = ALL FALSE RELIGION...God Judges her in Rev. 17 by DESTROYING HER, He uses the Anti-Christ to JUDGE HER, she is not more after Rev. Ch. 6.

2. Babylon = False Governance via Satan who IS THE GOD OF THIS WORLD !! The Statue will be Destroyed, by Jesus/God/The Rock cut out of the Mountain in Daniel ch. 2.

You and many think MYSTERY BABYLON, read Rev. 17:7, the Angel says COME I will tell you the MYSTERY of the Harlot and the BEAST she rides (TWO ENTITIES). So it is not a MYSTERY, the Angel explained it all unto us. We are Dealing with TWO THINGS....All False Religion which God sees as a PROSTITUTE.....And then the Governments of this EVIL WORLD which God hates, whom Satan RULES, see Like 4, Satan told Jesus he was in charge of ALL THE KINGDOMS, and if he would just BOW DOWN unto him that all of those Kingdoms would become his. Did Jesus dying change that? NO, Peter stated that the Devil/Satan was the god of this world. So BABYLON stands for MEN WHO WORSHIP THIS WORLD and the bad Governments of this World which = the STATUE.

Hal A Peno said:

SIT means to OCCUPY! It's all coincidence again I suppose....

The harlot promisses it's abominators a mansion with as many as 72 bedrooms with a virgin in each one, not to mention ISIS runs the largest prostitution ring in the world to include child brides.
Humanism has nothing to do with anything prophetic. This is the religion of Islam dominating a 10/7 alliance of nations/kings. No Italian connection whatsoever.

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Nothing to do with Islam, except Islam s the biggest part of the Harlot, which will be DESTROYED....You don't seem to get that the Anti-Christ/Beast is going to KILL OFF THE HARLOT...Which is why I say Islam is NOTHING, it will be brought to heel.

And the RCC angle is WRONG ALSO. Both are HEAD FAKES by Satan. This man will be an Atheist. Daniel 11 tells us that, he will then demand to be worshiped as the ONLY GOD, he will not allow Islams crazy religion to deter him, and that is exactly what they would do. What do all these MODERN GOVERNMENTS WORSHIP? Not Religion, but MEN....Humanism and them worshiping a MAN/BEAST/ANTI-CHRIST will b right in line with their thinking.

SIT means you was a PART of all the Governments of Men throughout History.

Hal A Peno said:

Revelation 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

The harlot being burned is probably symbolic of Mecca or Iran getting nuked.

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I explained this above, no use repeating it. Mecca and all RELIGIONS will be no More when the First Seal is opened and the Anti-Christ comes forth, by the time the Fourth Horse (4th Seal) comes fourth 1.5 Billion or more people will have been KILLED and the Church is in Heaven so who is getting Killed? Islamic peoples for the most part because if they are SO FANATICAL even now that thy will blow people up, the Anti-Christ will be a tactical Genius, (Daniel 8 says he understands DARK SENTENCES which means Riddles and Conundrums) so he will attack them the very first thing, you must understand, he will be RUTHLESS, unlike the USA he could care less about killing Civilians. Hes going to hit FAST and HARD.

Hal A Peno said:

How is one man going to destroy the followers of a religion 1.7 billion strong? Where do you find this idea in scripture. I've been asking people for years to show me where that is found in our bibles and guess what? ZILCH!

Babylon the Great means, "A large false religion." The verse should read,

"Islam, Babylon the Great, the Mother of jihadist and abominations of the earth."

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I think this "European Invasion" (Trojan Horse) we have going on now will create a BACKLASH and this man (Little Horn) will arise (Born in Greece, comes to power in the European Union) and he will gain his initial CRED by riding the World of Radical Islamic Types, then he forces ISRAEL and the Arabs to come unto a PEACE or SECURITY DEAL where they must Disarm and he provides SECURITY for them kind of like we did for Japan and Germany, and somewhat like NATO. The he hits all at once. Remember this man is RUTHLESS, a Nuclear Bomb or two will bring them to hell, they will have no choice. He will hit hard and fast and then he will demand EVERYONE SERVE HIM A GOD !!! His power will not be of himself (Daniel 8). If the USA wanted to we could Destroy every Islamic Nation in about 15 minutes. He will make everyone disarm (Remember Daniel 8, BY PEACE HE DESTROYS MANY) then he will strike and he will use what the NSA is using, they have every call and ever EMAIL we send, every computer post also. He will know who supports him, who is a LEFTIST RADICAL, who loves where, who goes to work at what time etc. etc. He will use this to do what the Deep State is doing to Trump now. Except he will plan out a WORLD WIDE TAKEOVER.

With the Church being gone the USA will probably collapse.

My blood pressure is back in line and my computer is charging.. I have a rubber-band holding it in ONE CERTAIN PLACE, I need a new Computer.

Revealing Times,

This is what I want you to prove. I want to see where that's found in our bible, and what verses CLEARLY and specifically imply...

1. Harlot = ALL FALSE RELIGION...God Judges her in Rev. 17 by DESTROYING HER, He uses the Anti-Christ to JUDGE HER, she is not more after Rev. Ch. 6.

2. Babylon = False Governance via Satan who IS THE GOD OF THIS WORLD !! The Statue will be Destroyed, by Jesus/God/The Rock cut out of the Mountain in Daniel ch. 2.

You and many think MYSTERY BABYLON, read Rev. 17:7, the Angel says COME I will tell you the MYSTERY of the Harlot and the BEAST she rides (TWO ENTITIES). So it is not a MYSTERY, the Angel explained it all unto us. We are Dealing with TWO THINGS....All False Religion which God sees as a PROSTITUTE.....And then the Governments of this EVIL WORLD which God hates, whom Satan RULES, see Like 4, Satan told Jesus he was in charge of ALL THE KINGDOMS, and if he would just BOW DOWN unto him that all of those Kingdoms would become his. Did Jesus dying change that? NO, Peter stated that the Devil/Satan was the god of this world. So BABYLON stands for MEN WHO WORSHIP THIS WORLD and the bad Governments of this World which = the STATUE.

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Show me how you arrive at you're conclusions. Not just what they are. NOT ONCE does Babylon imply what you said.