Double predestination (John Calvin) and Bondage of the will by Martin Luther

greyhawk.444 · Aug 7, 2017

Romans 9

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,

Matthew 25

34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Revelation 13

8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Now, the above passages are a reference to "Absolute or double predestination", so that God had long since decided which individuals would be saved or not - Which was decided long before He created the world.

So, then this is is what it means to be chosen, prepared, or predestined in the above passages - As this is directly referring to "Absolute or double predestination" (saved or not saved) according to the ontology of Martin Luther and John Calvin.

However, there are some Christians here who have made the mistake of refuting "Absolute or double predestination" based misquoting, or misinterpretation of the following:-

2 Peter 3

9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

But of course, God doesn't want anybody to perish, but we need to interpret this passage in the wider context of Christian cosmology - So that God has created each and every individual with specific impulses, inclinations, and tendencies - So that some people are predisposed, and naturally more inclined to disbelieve or reject Christ than others.

Also, God is omniscient with perfect knowledge about the future, and knows every last detail about future events - So the future is effectively set in stone - and the future also co-exists besides the present tense - Although trapped inside this 4-dimensional space-time continuum we are unable to perceive the future.

Now, God not wishing anybody to perish is like your husband or doctor who has urged the woman to quit smoking l'est she should die of lung cancer - Which is the most likely prognosis for chain smokers, and the nearest equivalent to God's Absolute foreknowledge about what would happen to anybody who is a chain smoker.

Thus, God has created different people with differing impulses, inclinations, and tendencies, and he knows the end result of such tendencies as to whether they are saved or not.

Now, God not wishing anybody to perish is consistent with the Theory of Absolute or double predestination - As those who are damned would be damned by their so called 'free will' working in tandem with their natural impulses, inclinations and tendencies.

So, now do you see how 2 Peter 3:9 - And such similar verses in the Bible - do Not in anyway contradict the Theory of Absolute Predestination; but on the contrary, the above passage is wholly and perfectly consistent with the Ontology of Absolute predestination - Presupposing, that we understood this passage correctly in the wider context of Luther and Calvin's absolutism?

So, therefore God has predestined individuals to be saved or not by virtue of his Creatorship - Since, he created individuals with specific impulses, inclinations, and tendencies - So that some are more prone to be damned than others - But this is perfectly consistent with God not wanting anybody to perish - Since he created humankind for the sake of love, so that each and every individual would have a special place and role in the creation - But it is such individualism which are the basis of most people falling by the wayside, according to Matthew 7:13, 14 - The downside of individual tendencies (Which will lead to most people's destruction) was never intended by God when he created Man - Hence, 2 Peter 3:9 is still true, and perfectly consistent with the Ontology of Absolute Predestination - That every event in the universe was preordained by the Creator.

Now, here is further evidence of Predestination:-

John 6

44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

That is, no one can be drawn to Christ, to believe and follow him unless they have been specifically chosen, prepared, or predestined by the Creator.

Whether saved or not, your position in the Ontology is constant and cannot be changed - Since, the virtual reality of this universe - Philosophical idealism - is underpinned by a Super-complex algorithm which is CONSTANT.

Discuss.

sdowney717 · Aug 7, 2017

greyhawk.444 said:
Romans 9

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,

Matthew 25

34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Revelation 13

8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Now, the above passages are a reference to "Absolute or double predestination", so that God had long since decided which individuals would be saved or not - Which was decided long before He created the world.

So, then this is is what it means to be chosen, prepared, or predestined in the above passages - As this is directly referring to "Absolute or double predestination" (saved or not saved) according to the ontology of Martin Luther and John Calvin.

However, there are some Christians here who have made the mistake of refuting "Absolute or double predestination" based misquoting, or misinterpretation of the following:-

2 Peter 3

9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

But of course, God doesn't want anybody to perish, but we need to interpret this passage in the wider context of Christian cosmology - So that God has created each and every individual with specific impulses, inclinations, and tendencies - So that some people are predisposed, and naturally more inclined to disbelieve or reject Christ than others.

Also, God is omniscient with perfect knowledge about the future, and knows every last detail about future events - So the future is effectively set in stone - and the future also co-exists besides the present tense - Although trapped inside this 4-dimensional space-time continuum we are unable to perceive the future.

Now, God not wishing anybody to perish is like your husband or doctor who has urged the woman to quit smoking l'est she should die of lung cancer - Which is the most likely prognosis for chain smokers, and the nearest equivalent to God's Absolute foreknowledge about what would happen to anybody who is a chain smoker.

Thus, God has created different people with differing impulses, inclinations, and tendencies, and he knows the end result of such tendencies as to whether they are saved or not.

Now, God not wishing anybody to perish is consistent with the Theory of Absolute or double predestination - As those who are damned would be damned by their so called 'free will' working in tandem with their natural impulses, inclinations and tendencies.

So, now do you see how 2 Peter 3:9 - And such similar verses in the Bible - do Not in anyway contradict the Theory of Absolute Predestination; but on the contrary, the above passage is wholly and perfectly consistent with the Ontology of Absolute predestination - Presupposing, that we understood this passage correctly in the wider context of Luther and Calvin's absolutism?

So, therefore God has predestined individuals to be saved or not by virtue of his Creatorship - Since, he created individuals with specific impulses, inclinations, and tendencies - So that some are more prone to be damned than others - But this is perfectly consistent with God not wanting anybody to perish - Since he created humankind for the sake of love, so that each and every individual would have a special place and role in the creation - But it is such individualism which are the basis of most people falling by the wayside, according to Matthew 7:13, 14 - The downside of individual tendencies (Which will lead to most people's destruction) was never intended by God when he created Man - Hence, 2 Peter 3:9 is still true, and perfectly consistent with the Ontology of Absolute Predestination - That every event in the universe was preordained by the Creator.

Now, here is further evidence of Predestination:-

John 6

44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

That is, no one can be drawn to Christ, to believe and follow him unless they have been specifically chosen, prepared, or predestined by the Creator.

Whether saved or not, your position in the Ontology is constant and cannot be changed - Since, the virtual reality of this universe - Philosophical idealism - is underpinned by a Super-complex algorithm which is CONSTANT.

Discuss.

'So, now do you see how 2 Peter 3:9 - And such similar verses in the Bible - do Not in anyway contradict the Theory of Absolute Predestination; but on the contrary, the above passage is wholly and perfectly consistent with the Ontology of Absolute predestination - Presupposing, that we understood this passage correctly in the wider context of Luther and Calvin's absolutism?'

Simply, Peter is speaking to the beloved elect, who are going to obtain salvation. That salvation will be revealed to all the world at the last day, when He comes to be glorified in His saints.

2 Thessalonians 1:10
when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

An example from Peter's first epistle, Peter is talking to the elect exiles of the diaspora.

1 Peter 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

sdowney717 · Aug 7, 2017

Study 'lost' and you will see for whom Christ came to seek and save and glorify with salvation.

Christ seeks and saves the lost sheep of the seed of Abraham. the children of God's promise, Abraham's descendants who will be and are born again after the Spirit and not after the flesh who are those of the world.

Matthew 10:6
But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matthew 15:24
But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

Matthew 18:10
[ The Parable of the Lost Sheep ] “Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that in heaven their angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 18:11
For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost.

Luke 9:25
For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and is himself destroyed or lost?

Luke 15:1
[ The Parable of the Lost Sheep ] Then all the tax collectors and the sinners drew near to Him to hear Him.

Luke 15:4
“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it?

Luke 15:6
And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’

Luke 15:8
[ The Parable of the Lost Coin ] “Or what woman, having ten silver coins, if she loses one coin, does not light a lamp, sweep the house, and search carefully until she finds it?

Luke 15:9
And when she has found it, she calls her friends and neighbors together, saying, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found the piece which I lost!’

Luke 15:11
[ The Parable of the Lost Son ] Then He said: “A certain man had two sons.

Luke 15:24
for this my son was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ And they began to be merry.

Luke 15:32
It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’”

Luke 19:10
for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.”

Luke 21:18
But not a hair of your head shall be lost.

John 6:12
So when they were filled, He said to His disciples, “Gather up the fragments that remain, so that nothing is lost.”

John 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

John 18:9
that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, “Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none.”

Instrument150 · Aug 7, 2017

greyhawk.444 said:
Romans 9

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,

Matthew 25

34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Revelation 13

8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Now, the above passages are a reference to "Absolute or double predestination", so that God had long since decided which individuals would be saved or not - Which was decided long before He created the world.

So, then this is is what it means to be chosen, prepared, or predestined in the above passages - As this is directly referring to "Absolute or double predestination" (saved or not saved) according to the ontology of Martin Luther and John Calvin.

However, there are some Christians here who have made the mistake of refuting "Absolute or double predestination" based misquoting, or misinterpretation of the following:-

2 Peter 3

9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

But of course, God doesn't want anybody to perish, but we need to interpret this passage in the wider context of Christian cosmology - So that God has created each and every individual with specific impulses, inclinations, and tendencies - So that some people are predisposed, and naturally more inclined to disbelieve or reject Christ than others.

Also, God is omniscient with perfect knowledge about the future, and knows every last detail about future events - So the future is effectively set in stone - and the future also co-exists besides the present tense - Although trapped inside this 4-dimensional space-time continuum we are unable to perceive the future.

Now, God not wishing anybody to perish is like your husband or doctor who has urged the woman to quit smoking l'est she should die of lung cancer - Which is the most likely prognosis for chain smokers, and the nearest equivalent to God's Absolute foreknowledge about what would happen to anybody who is a chain smoker.

Thus, God has created different people with differing impulses, inclinations, and tendencies, and he knows the end result of such tendencies as to whether they are saved or not.

Now, God not wishing anybody to perish is consistent with the Theory of Absolute or double predestination - As those who are damned would be damned by their so called 'free will' working in tandem with their natural impulses, inclinations and tendencies.

So, now do you see how 2 Peter 3:9 - And such similar verses in the Bible - do Not in anyway contradict the Theory of Absolute Predestination; but on the contrary, the above passage is wholly and perfectly consistent with the Ontology of Absolute predestination - Presupposing, that we understood this passage correctly in the wider context of Luther and Calvin's absolutism?

So, therefore God has predestined individuals to be saved or not by virtue of his Creatorship - Since, he created individuals with specific impulses, inclinations, and tendencies - So that some are more prone to be damned than others - But this is perfectly consistent with God not wanting anybody to perish - Since he created humankind for the sake of love, so that each and every individual would have a special place and role in the creation - But it is such individualism which are the basis of most people falling by the wayside, according to Matthew 7:13, 14 - The downside of individual tendencies (Which will lead to most people's destruction) was never intended by God when he created Man - Hence, 2 Peter 3:9 is still true, and perfectly consistent with the Ontology of Absolute Predestination - That every event in the universe was preordained by the Creator.

Now, here is further evidence of Predestination:-

John 6

44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

That is, no one can be drawn to Christ, to believe and follow him unless they have been specifically chosen, prepared, or predestined by the Creator.

Whether saved or not, your position in the Ontology is constant and cannot be changed - Since, the virtual reality of this universe - Philosophical idealism - is underpinned by a Super-complex algorithm which is CONSTANT.

Discuss.

I have a little trouble with predestination, but not in a traditional sense. I just feel like it is an illusion .... "predestination" assumes the linear flow of time which we are bound to. So, the particular order of things are important to us. We chose at some point to follow the Man called Jesus. This point is special to us because it only existed for a brief moment, and we'll never get to experience it again. God experiences us making that choice every "second" of every "day" from the beginning of "time" until the end of "time" because He simply does not experience time in a linear fashion. Whatever dimension binds our Father to the rules like how He can't lie to the point that if he says something, it just becomes true forever( plus and minus )just don't have those kind of restraints. SO.... yeah it is destiny and choice all at once.

But then again .... IF you make a truly random choice out of nothing but pure free will ... is it not the action of making a choice that saves you? Thus giving you some sort of glory for making the choice. This concept seems to hold a fair amount of sin...so to cancel this sin, would God have to choose you first and lay out the path of discovery so that it is His action of story-creation that deserves the glory? Or is the sacrifice of Jesus the catalyst to generate the path to our free will choice, thus absolving us of the sinful glory of pride in making the right call?

I do not know.

TheSeabass · Aug 7, 2017

greyhawk.444 said:
Romans 9

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,

Matthew 25

34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Revelation 13

8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Now, the above passages are a reference to "Absolute or double predestination", so that God had long since decided which individuals would be saved or not - Which was decided long before He created the world.

So, then this is is what it means to be chosen, prepared, or predestined in the above passages - As this is directly referring to "Absolute or double predestination" (saved or not saved) according to the ontology of Martin Luther and John Calvin.

The problem the Calvinist has with these verses is that not a one of them remotely comes close to suggesting God unconditionally predetermine certain individuals to be lost or saved against the individual's will. Simply quoting passages then claiming they 'reference' Calvinism proves nothing. If the Calvinist can read whatever they want to into these verses what is to stop anyone from reading anything into any verse they want to?

sdowney717 · Aug 7, 2017

Instrument150 said:
I have a little trouble with predestination, but not in a traditional sense. I just feel like it is an illusion .... "predestination" assumes the linear flow of time which we are bound to. So, the particular order of things are important to us. We chose at some point to follow the Man called Jesus. This point is special to us because it only existed for a brief moment, and we'll never get to experience it again. God experiences us making that choice every "second" of every "day" from the beginning of "time" until the end of "time" because He simply does not experience time in a linear fashion. Whatever dimension binds our Father to the rules like how He can't lie to the point that if he says something, it just becomes true forever( plus and minus )just don't have those kind of restraints. SO.... yeah it is destiny and choice all at once.

But then again .... IF you make a truly random choice out of nothing but pure free will ... is it not the action of making a choice that saves you? Thus giving you some sort of glory for making the choice. This concept seems to hold a fair amount of sin...so to cancel this sin, would God have to choose you first and lay out the path of discovery so that it is His action of story-creation that deserves the glory? Or is the sacrifice of Jesus the catalyst to generate the path to our free will choice, thus absolving us of the sinful glory of pride in making the right call?

I do not know.

You're so close to what Paul writes about those who are called to obtain salvation.
God makes this choice before us on our behalf that we will choose Christ so that no flesh can glory in front of God. All things work to the good of them that love God, who are the called according to His purpose. The called according to His purposes, are going to love God and therefore love Christ, that is God's predetermination for them.
.
If your not called, then there is nothing for you from God regarding having eternal life as your never going to be born again and believe in Christ. Because of God you are in Christ Jesus.

1 Corinthians 1
Glory Only in the Lord
26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. 27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 29 that no flesh should glory in His presence. 30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption— 31 that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the Lord.”

Instrument150 · Aug 7, 2017

Thank you

greyhawk.444 · Aug 7, 2017

sdowney717 said:
Study 'lost' and you will see for whom Christ came to seek and save and glorify with salvation.

Christ seeks and saves the lost sheep of the seed of Abraham. the children of God's promise, Abraham's descendants who will be and are born again after the Spirit and not after the flesh who are those of the world.

Matthew 10:6
But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matthew 15:24
But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

Matthew 18:10
[ The Parable of the Lost Sheep ] “Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that in heaven their angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 18:11
For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost.

Luke 9:25
For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and is himself destroyed or lost?

Luke 15:1
[ The Parable of the Lost Sheep ] Then all the tax collectors and the sinners drew near to Him to hear Him.

Luke 15:4
“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it?

Luke 15:6
And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’

Luke 15:8
[ The Parable of the Lost Coin ] “Or what woman, having ten silver coins, if she loses one coin, does not light a lamp, sweep the house, and search carefully until she finds it?

Luke 15:9
And when she has found it, she calls her friends and neighbors together, saying, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found the piece which I lost!’

Luke 15:11
[ The Parable of the Lost Son ] Then He said: “A certain man had two sons.

Luke 15:24
for this my son was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ And they began to be merry.

Luke 15:32
It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’”

Luke 19:10
for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.”

Luke 21:18
But not a hair of your head shall be lost.

John 6:12
So when they were filled, He said to His disciples, “Gather up the fragments that remain, so that nothing is lost.”

John 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

John 18:9
that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, “Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none.”

But that doesn't invalidate what I have already said regarding Romans 9:22-23, Matthew 25:34, John 6:44, 6:65, and Revelation 13:8 - Every verse in the Bible is consistent with everything else in this book, and you can't use any bible quotes to invalidate anything else in this book - What I have said still stands.

TheSeabass · Aug 7, 2017

Instrument150 said:
But then again .... IF you make a truly random choice out of nothing but pure free will ... is it not the action of making a choice that saves you?

It is God that saves but God saves those that make the choice to be obedient to His will. So it is in that sense men are told to "save yourselves" (Acts 2:40) "save thyself (1 Timothy 4:16). Again, men do not save themselves by themselves, but save themselves in the sense of choosing to obey God's will and God has promised to save those that do obey His will (Hebrews 5:9)

Instrument150 said:
Thus giving you some sort of glory for making the choice.

What glory was their for Noah in choosing to obey God by building the ark to the saving of his house? None.
What glory was there for Abraham in choosing to obey God by sacrificing Issac? None.

Luke 17:10 "So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do." When one obeys the will of God he is just doing what is his duty do to (see also Ecclesiastes 12:13) yet he is still an unproftiable servant. There is nothing to glory about in being an unprofitable servant in need of grace.

Instruemnt150 said:
This concept seems to hold a fair amount of sin...so to cancel this sin, would God have to choose you first and lay out the path of discovery so that it is His action of story-creation that deserves the glory? Or is the sacrifice of Jesus the catalyst to generate the path to our free will choice, thus absolving us of the sinful glory of pride in making the right call?

I do not know.

Before the world began, God foreknew and preordained that a group (Christian) would be saved but God does not decide for man which men will or will not be in this group. God left that choice up to man. And for those that choose to obey the gospel (answer the gospel call) are the ones placed in this group (place in Christ) and in that sense those that choose to obey the gospel "save yourselves" (Acts 2:40 cf verse 38). Those that choose to be in this group, and faithfully remain in this group, can then one day share in the glory God has provided for this group (1 Peter 5:1; Romans 8:18; )

greyhawk.444 · Aug 7, 2017

TheSeabass said:
Before the world began, God foreknew and preordained that a group (Christian) would be saved but God does not decide for man which men will or will not be in this group. God left that choice up to man. And for those that choose to obey the gospel (answer the gospel call) are the ones placed in this group (place in Christ) and in that sense those that choose to obey the gospel "save yourselves" (Acts 2:40 cf verse 38). Those that choose to be in this group, and faithfully remain in this group, can then one day share in the glory God has provided for this group (1 Peter 5:1; Romans 8:18; )

This seems like an interesting, viable, and workable alternative to the exegesis I have proposed; but still, there is a problem with this alternative.

Presupposing, that God does not decide which men will or will not be part of the group - Since, he gave people 'free will' to decide for themselves - it means that God doesn't actually know what each and everybody would choose tomorrow, or next week, or next year etc. - Which means that God can't possibly be omniscient at all if he doesn't have perfect knowledge about each and everybody in the future.

So for God to be "All-knowing" you would have to "move the goalpost" to redefine its meaning; but this is not according to our understanding of "omniscience" in a conventional sense.

So, I think there is a problem with your interpretation of Romans 9:22-23, Matthew 25:34; and Revelation 13:8.

Presupposing, that God has perfect knowledge about each and every individual in the future, then it means that the future is set in stone, and nothing we can do here in the present tense could ever change the end result.

TheSeabass · Aug 7, 2017

greyhawk.444 said:
This seems like an interesting, viable, and workable alternative to the exegesis I have proposed; but still, there is a problem with this alternative.

Presupposing, that God does not decide which men will or will not be part of the group - Since, he gave people 'free will' to decide for themselves - it means that God doesn't actually know what each and everybody would choose tomorrow, or next week, or next year etc. - Which means that God can't possibly be omniscient at all if he doesn't have perfect knowledge about each and everybody in the future.

So for God to be "All-knowing" you would have to "move the goalpost" to redefine its meaning; but this is not according to our understanding of "omniscience" in a conventional sense.

So, I think there is a problem with your interpretation of Romans 9:22-23, Matthew 25:34; and Revelation 13:8.

Presupposing, that God has perfect knowledge about each and every individual in the future, then it means that the future is set in stone, and nothing we can do here in the present tense could ever change the end result.

God has foreknowledge, we can both agree upon that. So God foreknows which men will choose to be in the group and which ones will not. Yet God still left that choice up to man. Therefore God is not culpable for those men NOT in the group as Calvinism puts culpability upon God. Also knowledge does not necessitate predetermination therefore it is man's free will choice to be in the group or not.

Romans 9 is not an essay on how man is saved, but Paul in Rom 11 says God has cast off the Jews, so in Romans 9 Paul cuts off the arguments he knew the Jews would raise in God cutting them off. Calvinism says before the world began God already pre-chose some to be of the chosen/elect leaving the rest to be lost and nothing can change what God has preordained/predetermined. Yet in Romans chapters 9-11 we have Jews going from elect to be non-elect (cast off) and the Gentiles going from non-elect status to elect status. This is not possible with Calvinisms idea of predestination/election.

In Mt 25 the kingdom was prepared for anyone and everyone that chooses to be a Christian-sheep.

Rev 13:8 those not written in the book of life are those that did not obey the will of God but worshipped the beast instead, verse 4. The ones that remained faithful to God (Revelation 2:10) had their names in the book of life.

"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

--It was in God's plans from the world's foundation that Christ the Lamb would be slain for the sins of man and it was not unconditionally predetermined which individuals would or would not be in the book of life.
--God has, from the beginning of the world, kept track of names of those faithful to Him from the OT faithful to present day faithful.

sdowney717 · Aug 7, 2017

greyhawk.444 said:
This seems like an interesting, viable, and workable alternative to the exegesis I have proposed; but still, there is a problem with this alternative.

Presupposing, that God does not decide which men will or will not be part of the group - Since, he gave people 'free will' to decide for themselves - it means that God doesn't actually know what each and everybody would choose tomorrow, or next week, or next year etc. - Which means that God can't possibly be omniscient at all if he doesn't have perfect knowledge about each and everybody in the future.

So for God to be "All-knowing" you would have to "move the goalpost" to redefine its meaning; but this is not according to our understanding of "omniscience" in a conventional sense.

So, I think there is a problem with your interpretation of Romans 9:22-23, Matthew 25:34; and Revelation 13:8.

Presupposing, that God has perfect knowledge about each and every individual in the future, then it means that the future is set in stone, and nothing we can do here in the present tense could ever change the end result.

Yes, the future is most certainly set in stone, hard coded by God to be what He has foreordained to pass.. we who believe God were ordained to be in Christ before we believed. We are 'in Christ', our life is hid with Christ in God, we are become one spirit with Him. So if Christ was foreordained, then we were foreordained to believe in Christ. Our names were written in the book of Life of the Lamb from before the foundation of the earth as Ephesians 1 so nicely describes.

1 Peter 1:18-21New King James Version (NKJV)
18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

Christ was foreordained. Christ was also the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, so the fall God predetermined to take place. Nothing in God's universe is left to random chaos, all of the events have ordained purpose.
Manifest for 'US', not the world, He came to save His people from their sins. Christ does not save unbelievers, those of the world from their sins. Christ says He dies for the sheep. Christ says the sheep hear His voice and follow Him and He gives them eternal life and they will never perish.

Through Christ we believe in God. And because of God we believe in Christ. It is a logic lock.

1 Corinthians 1:30
But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption—

sdowney717 · Aug 7, 2017

Ephesians 1, says were were 'foreordained' to be in Christ as adopted sons, as were 'chosen in Him' from before the foundation of the world.

1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, to the saints that are at Ephesus, and the faithful in Christ Jesus: 2Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ: 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love: 5 having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved:

TheSeabass · Aug 7, 2017

Eph 1 says nothing at all about certain individuals foreknown by God and unconditionally saved by God.

Eph 1:1 speaks of the GROUP God foreknew (Saints and faithful in Christ) and that God foreknew this group would have (Eph 1:4,5) the traits of being in Christ, holy and without blame, be called sons and in Eph 2:10 God foreknew what work this group would be engaged in.

MDC · Aug 7, 2017

TheSeabass said:
The problem the Calvinist has with these verses is that not a one of them remotely comes close to suggesting God unconditionally predetermine certain individuals to be lost or saved against the individual's will. Simply quoting passages then claiming they 'reference' Calvinism proves nothing. If the Calvinist can read whatever they want to into these verses what is to stop anyone from reading anything into any verse they want to?

The absolute predestination of all things is what the Bible teaches. Pelagians like yourself seabass deny Gods Sovereignty. And is why you have a humanistic view of scripture.

greyhawk.444 · Aug 9, 2017

MDC said:
The absolute predestination of all things is what the Bible teaches. Pelagians like yourself seabass deny Gods Sovereignty. And is why you have a humanistic view of scripture.

Thank you for your comment, which is much appreciated.

TheSeabass · Aug 10, 2017

MDC said:
The absolute predestination of all things is what the Bible teaches. Pelagians like yourself seabass deny Gods Sovereignty. And is why you have a humanistic view of scripture.

Not a verse says all things that happen have been predestined by God. Such an idea makes God culpable for all the sin and evil that takes place.

(1) In Jonah 3, God, through Jonah, told Nineveh "Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.

(2) Jeremiah 18:8-10 "If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them."

We know that God's predetermined course of action in dealing with nations is to show mercy to those that choose to repent and no mercy to those that choose not to repent.

(3) The King of Nineveh lead the city to repent Jonah 3:8-9

(4) God saw their work of repentance..."And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not." Jonah 3:10

A free will choice on part of Nineveh to repent CHANGED a future event in 40 days where Nineveh "shall be overthrown" to Nineveh receiving mercy. Obviously all events that happen have not been predetermined for here we have God changing His course of action due to Nineveh repenting. I accept God's Sovereignty in how justly fairly God deals with mankind and not the perverted way Calvinism makes God culpable and unjust.

Marvin Knox · Aug 11, 2017

greyhawk.444 said:
according to the ontology of Martin Luther and John Calvin.

Just to begin discussion with - you are using the word "ontology" incorrectly.

I believe you mean "soteriology" instead of where you have used the word ontology.

Ontology is the study of "being" and soteriology is the study of salvation.

In fact - it seems to me that you are trying a little too hard to sound like a theologian and not carrying it off very well.

greyhawk.444 said:
Whether saved or not, your position in the Ontology is constant and cannot be changed - Since, the virtual reality of this universe - Philosophical idealism - is underpinned by a Super-complex algorithm which is CONSTANT.

I rest my case.

Having brought that out in the open:

greyhawk.444 said:
So that some are more prone to be damned than others

greyhawk.444 said:
So that God has created each and every individual with specific impulses, inclinations, and tendencies - So that some people are predisposed, and naturally more inclined to disbelieve or reject Christ than others.

All fallen men are equally prone to be damned simply because they are under judgment for their sins. Romans makes it clear that one aspect of God's judgment levied against sinners in this age is an abandonment to unbelief.

There is none righteous. No one seeks God. None can receive the things of God.

The original man, however, was created in righteousness with a perfect ability and willingness to see God and a perfect ability to receive the things of God.

While I agree that all things which happen in God's creation were predestined to happen just as they do - the verses you have chosen have more to do with the doctrine of election than they do to the doctrine of predestination.

greyhawk.444 · Aug 11, 2017

Marvin Knox said:
Just to begin discussion with - you are using the word "ontology" incorrectly.

I believe you mean "soteriology" instead of where you have used the word ontology.

Ontology is the study of "being" and soteriology is the study of salvation.

That these are different terms doesn't mean that the two aren't connected - So that one would be dependent on the other.

Ontology (or metaphysics) encompasses human nature, which is directly correlated with salvation - Since, individuals will have different natures, which means that some people are more prone than others to be damned.

In other words, your position in "God's universe" (Ontology) is constant and cannot be changed - Since your place in the creation is foreordained - So that you are either saved or unsaved, which was decided long before God created the world.

Marvin Knox said:
All fallen men are equally prone to be damned simply because they are under judgment for their sins. Romans makes it clear that one aspect of God's judgment levied against sinners in this age is an abandonment to unbelief.

But if they are equally prone then there would be no sheep and goats, wheat and tares, righteous and wicked, saved or unsaved etc. - Since, there would be no basis at all to divide people.

Marvin Knox said:
While I agree that all things which happen in God's creation were predestined to happen just as they do - the verses you have chosen have more to do with the doctrine of election than they do to the doctrine of predestination.

But election is a specific case of predestination - Christians are God's elect by virtue of their predestination.

Marvin Knox · Aug 11, 2017

greyhawk.444 said:
Since, individuals will have different natures, which means that some people are more prone than others to be damned.

No - all fallen men have the same nature and are already damned because of it.

greyhawk.444 said:
In other words, your position in "God's universe" (Ontology) is constant and cannot be changed

On the contrary. The possibility of changing the position of some is exactly what the gospel is all about.

greyhawk.444 said:
Since your place in the creation is foreordained - So that you are either saved or unsaved, which was decided long before God created the world.

The natural condition of all men before hearing and responding to the gospel is foreordained. The continued condition of the reprobate is foreordained. The new and eternal position of God's elect is foreordained.

The position for which men were foreordained can be changed by believing and acting on the gospel message.

greyhawk.444 said:
But if they are equally prone then there would be no sheep and goats, wheat and tares, righteous and wicked, saved or unsaved etc. - Since, there would be no basis at all to divide people.

If it were not for the election of God and the corresponding drawing of some men to Christ to become new creations - all men would be goats forever.

The basis for division is the fact that some have become new creations and some have remained the same old man.

greyhawk.444 said:
But election is a specific case of predestination - Christians are God's elect by virtue of their predestination.

No ---------- Christians are predestined to become so by virtue of their election.

Double predestination (John Calvin) and Bondage of the will by Martin Luther

Active Member

Newbie

Newbie

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Newbie

Active Member

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Newbie

Newbie

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Senior Veteran

Active Member

Senior Veteran

Similar threads