Drop your theological errors off here...

OrthodoxyUSA

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jul 6, 2004
25,285
2,868
59
Tupelo, MS
Visit site
✟142,274.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I'm sorry if what I said was offensive to anyone.

I'm sure there are many wonderful people in the Orthodox church just as there are in every other denomination - whether they be Catholic, Protestant, or one of what we would call a cult.

But IMO simply hoping that one will be able to have salvation when all is said and done is not the same as a justifying faith in the work of Jesus Christ at Calvary on our behalf.

Faith and hope are not the same thing.

"Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." Hebrews 11:1

"Assurance" is what is obviously lacking in the quote by"OrthodoxyUSA". Therefore it is not faith. It is something else entirely (i.e. hope).

Whatever that quote represents - it is not saving faith as I see it.

Obviously I hope that people who confess such a lack of faith will be saved in the end - just as I have hope for cult members. I just don't have any assurance concerning their final state (i.e. I have my doubts about their salvation no matter how nice and how religious they are in this life as I'm pretty sure many of that persuasion are).

I'm not judging anyone personally - just their doctrine as express in the quote from "OrthodoxyUSA" ans statements from others of a similar theology.

You're not offending me. Just good back and forth.

We were saved 2000 years ago on a Friday around 3pm
We are being saved.
We will be saved.

Forgive me...
 
Upvote 0

OrthodoxyUSA

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jul 6, 2004
25,285
2,868
59
Tupelo, MS
Visit site
✟142,274.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I believe some of what the Catholics believe is wrong. I am not a Catholic for that reason! Some are listed on your list. Praying to Mary is one of them.

Some have taken it too far. That may be true. (I believe so)
However she does have a proper place as Theotokos (the bearer of God)
And if you want a biblical instance where Mary interceeds we need only look to Christ's miracle at the wedding at Cana.

She approached Christ to ask for the miracle and Christ did as she asked even though it was not yet "his time.

Forgive me...
 
Upvote 0

OrthodoxyUSA

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jul 6, 2004
25,285
2,868
59
Tupelo, MS
Visit site
✟142,274.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Let me get this straight OP...you're telling me to ease up on the Jesus praying, and reserve some prayers for Mary?? Based on which scriptures?

I seem to recall the wise men worshipping Jesus and not Mary.

You should not ease up on praying to Christ. We do not believe that the saints are dead, but alive with Christ.

Hebrews 12:1
"Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,"

Forgive me...
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

JoeP222w

Well-Known Member
Nov 5, 2015
3,358
1,748
55
✟77,175.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Drop your

Primacy,
filioque clause (and the Son),
Purgatory,
Indulgences,
beleif in hell as a physical place,
Dispensationalism,
disbelief in the Trinity,
belief in a pretribulation Rapture,
belief that we can't fall from grace,
Prosperity Gospel,
belief in a 1000 year reign on earth,
hellfire and damnation preaching,
belief that Icons are Idols,
praying to Mary is wrong,
depravity of man,
just the bible and me,
infallability of scriptures,
infalable personal translation of scriptures,
belief that the Holy Spirit leads us individually in interpreting scripture,
Predestination,
belief that works do not assist our salvation,
disbelief in prayers for the dead,
disbelief in prayers to Saints,
disbelief in infant baptism,
Refusal to recognize any form of liturgical worship,
attempts to predict the end of time from scripture,
salvition moment "I'm saved",
Mosaic laws,
following Judaism,
beliefs that the nation state of Israel is spiritual Israel,
belief that Jesus died to pay off God's anger,

and come sing in the liturgy at an Orthodox Christian Church and partake of Holy Communion.

You wrote a whole lot of assertions with no explanation to what you mean. And you have truth mixed with error in your list.
 
Upvote 0

OrthodoxyUSA

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jul 6, 2004
25,285
2,868
59
Tupelo, MS
Visit site
✟142,274.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
You wrote a whole lot of assertions with no explanation to what you mean. And you have truth mixed with error in your list.

I did... it was meant as a list of things we need to drop in order to go back to being orthodox Christians.

I have discussed all of these in past threads. (13 years worth)

Most all of them are western only ideas. (1000 years reign existed in the east first) I could have added others... like "altar calls".

Are there a few you want to discuss?

Forgive me...
 
Upvote 0

sdowney717

Newbie
Apr 20, 2013
8,712
2,021
✟102,588.00
Faith
Christian
I did... it was meant as a list of things we need to drop in order to go back to being orthodox Christians.

I have discussed all of these in past threads. (13 years worth)

Most all of them are western only ideas. (1000 years reign existed in the east first) I could have added others... like "altar calls".

Are there a few you want to discuss?

Forgive me...

"All things whatever arise from, and depend on, the divine appointment; whereby it was foreordained who should receive the word of life, and who should disbelieve it; who should be delivered from their sins, and who should be hardened in them; and who should be justified and who should be condemned." - Martin Luther

Double Or Nothing: Martin Luther's Doctrine of Predestination by Brian G. Mattson

On predestination as scripturally true and how Lutheranism abandoned Luther and predestination and common sense scriptural understanding of predestination for fanciful explanation.
 
Upvote 0

OrthodoxyUSA

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jul 6, 2004
25,285
2,868
59
Tupelo, MS
Visit site
✟142,274.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
No end to Christ's reign.

Revelation 11:15

Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever."

1 Kings 2:33

"So shall their blood return on the head of Joab and on the head of his descendants forever; but to David and his descendants and his house and his throne, may there be peace from the LORD forever."

1 Kings 2:45

"But King Solomon shall be blessed, and the throne of David shall be established before the LORD forever."

Psalm 89:29

"So I will establish his descendants forever And his throne as the days of heaven.

Psalm 89:36

"His descendants shall endure forever And his throne as the sun before Me.

Psalm 89:37

"It shall be established forever like the moon, And the witness in the sky is faithful." Selah.

Psalm 132:12

"If your sons will keep My covenant And My testimony which I will teach them, Their sons also shall sit upon your throne forever."

Ezekiel 37:25

"They will live on the land that I gave to Jacob My servant, in which your fathers lived; and they will live on it, they, and their sons and their sons' sons, forever; and David My servant will be their prince forever.

2 Samuel 7:13

"He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.

2 Samuel 7:16

"Your house and your kingdom shall endure before Me forever; your throne shall be established forever."'"

1 Chronicles 22:10

'He shall build a house for My name, and he shall be My son and I will be his father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel forever.'

1 Chronicles 28:7
'I will establish his kingdom forever if he resolutely performs My commandments and My ordinances, as is done now.'

Psalm 45:6

Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom.

Hebrews 1:8

But of the Son He says, "YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.

Daniel 7:14

"And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and men of every language Might serve Him His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed.

Luke 1:33

and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end."

Daniel 2:44

"In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, and that kingdom will not be left for another people; it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, but it will itself endure forever.

2 Peter 1:11

for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

Revelation 1:6

and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father--to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.

Forgive me...
 
Upvote 0

OrthodoxyUSA

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jul 6, 2004
25,285
2,868
59
Tupelo, MS
Visit site
✟142,274.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
"All things whatever arise from, and depend on, the divine appointment; whereby it was foreordained who should receive the word of life, and who should disbelieve it; who should be delivered from their sins, and who should be hardened in them; and who should be justified and who should be condemned." - Martin Luther

Double Or Nothing: Martin Luther's Doctrine of Predestination by Brian G. Mattson

On predestination as scripturally true and how Lutheranism abandoned Luther and predestination and common sense scriptural understanding of predestination for fanciful explanation.

Foreknowledge does not equal foreordained. IOW ~ Just because God knows what we will do, does not mean he takes away our free will. God sees all of time from his vantage point.

Martin Luther was wrong to add such force as to make his reader believe they have no choices.

Forgive me...
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

sdowney717

Newbie
Apr 20, 2013
8,712
2,021
✟102,588.00
Faith
Christian
Foreknowledge does not equal foreordained. IOW ~ Just because God knows what we will, does not mean he takes away our free will. God sees all of time from his vantage point.

Martin Luther was wrong to add such force as to make his reader believe they have no choices.

Forgive me...
God only saves those whom He has foreknown, by His mercy alone and not by anything they did.

Before any were born, before any did good or evil, before they even had a thought in their head, God had predetermined their destiny. Paul talks of this as the purpose of God according to election. And Paul tells us about the elect, that only the elect are called to OBTAIN salvation. For the apostles, being thus called meant you will be efficiently and effectively one of the saved.

JudeNew King James Version (NKJV)
Greeting to the Called
1 Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James,

To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:

2 Mercy, peace, and love be multiplied to you.

Romans 9
10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

Israel’s Rejection and God’s Justice
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
 
Upvote 0

OrthodoxyUSA

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jul 6, 2004
25,285
2,868
59
Tupelo, MS
Visit site
✟142,274.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
God only saves those whom He has foreknown, by His mercy alone and not by anything they did.

Before any were born, before any did good or evil, before they even had a thought in their head, God had predetermined their destiny. Paul talks of this as the purpose of God according to election. And Paul tells us about the elect, that only the elect are called to OBTAIN salvation. For the apostles, being thus called meant you will be efficiently and effectively one of the saved.

JudeNew King James Version (NKJV)
Greeting to the Called
1 Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James,

To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:

2 Mercy, peace, and love be multiplied to you.

Romans 9
10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

Israel’s Rejection and God’s Justice
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

God desires the salvation of all... and he knew all of us before we were born.

Forgive me...
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

sdowney717

Newbie
Apr 20, 2013
8,712
2,021
✟102,588.00
Faith
Christian
God desires the salvation of all... and he knew all of us before we were born.

Forgive me...
Our call and election to obtain salavtion is certain to God, but not always certain to us from our POV.

2 Peter 1:9-11New King James Version (NKJV)
9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
 
Upvote 0

OrthodoxyUSA

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jul 6, 2004
25,285
2,868
59
Tupelo, MS
Visit site
✟142,274.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Our call and election to obtain salavtion is certain to God, but not always certain to us from our POV.

2 Peter 1:9-11New King James Version (NKJV)
9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Foreknowledge does not negate free will. Agreed?

Forgive me...
 
Upvote 0

amariselle

Jesus Never Fails
Sep 28, 2004
6,648
4,194
The Great Northern Wilderness
✟60,500.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
Because we can see heavenly worship in the book of Revelation.

Forgive me...

Yes, but how does anyone know that this heavenly worship will be exactly the same as Orthodox liturgy?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

amariselle

Jesus Never Fails
Sep 28, 2004
6,648
4,194
The Great Northern Wilderness
✟60,500.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
Heb 12:1
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Not dead, but alive with Christ.

Forgive me...

Agreed. I think they meant "dead" as in no longer alive in this life, or on this earth. Also, those verses say nothing whatsoever about praying to those who have left this life. Nowhere in Scripture are we told to contact those who are no longer living here on earth, in fact, God does forbid such practice in His word.
 
Upvote 0

OrthodoxyUSA

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jul 6, 2004
25,285
2,868
59
Tupelo, MS
Visit site
✟142,274.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Yes, but how does anyone know that this heavenly worship will be exactly the same as Orthodox liturgy?

Have you been to an Orthodox liturgy?

Forgive me...
 
Upvote 0

OrthodoxyUSA

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jul 6, 2004
25,285
2,868
59
Tupelo, MS
Visit site
✟142,274.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Agreed. I think they meant "dead" as in no longer alive in this life, or on this earth. Also, those verses say nothing whatsoever about praying to those who have left this life. Nowhere in Scripture are we told to contact those who are no longer living here on earth, in fact, God does forbid such practice in His word.

Revelation shows the saints receiving the prayers of saints as incense and presenting them before God. The angels are doing the same. They are not dead.

Forgive me...
 
Upvote 0

amariselle

Jesus Never Fails
Sep 28, 2004
6,648
4,194
The Great Northern Wilderness
✟60,500.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
Have you been to an Orthodox liturgy?

Forgive me...

No. I know only some basic things about Orthodox worship and practice.

Doesn't answer my question though. I would be concerned if anyone said that the way their specific church or denomination worships is exactly how it will be in Heaven. I don't think we have the right or the ability to say we know exactly what eternity is going to be like.

As Paul wrote, right now we see through a glass darkly.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

amariselle

Jesus Never Fails
Sep 28, 2004
6,648
4,194
The Great Northern Wilderness
✟60,500.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
Revelation shows the saints receiving the prayers of saints as incense and presenting them before God. The angels are doing the same. They are not dead.

Forgive me...

Even if that is the case, does it say anywhere that we therefore should pray directly to those saints, or to Mary, or to anyone other than God?
 
Upvote 0