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God Saves Whom He Wills
- Thread starter Mountainmanbob
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TheSeabass
Well-Known Member
"I will have mercy upon whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion"
Is there a basis by which God shows mercy to one and not another or is it purely arbitrary?
Is there a basis by which God shows mercy to one and not another or is it purely arbitrary?
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TheSeabass
Well-Known Member
But what is that basis? The bible tells us what that basis is....Jeremiah 18:8-10
=======
Romans 9:16 "So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."
1) we can know that this verse does NOT mean man has no responsibility to obey the will of God for such an idea contradicts all the verses that requires man to obey as Hebrews 5:9, 2 Thessalonians 1:8; Acts 10:35; 1 John 3:10; etc
2) we can know from this verse that man did not deserve salvation nor can man earn salvation. Paul was proving to the Jew (who God cast off see Romans 11) that God did not owe them salvation. Just being descendants of Abraham did not obligate God to owe them salvation.
3) we know that God "sheweth mercy" to mankind by sending His Son to die upon the cross for the sins of man. There was no "willing or running" on the part of man that caused God to show His mercy, it was purely due to God's graciousness that He sent Christ to earth thereby showing mercy to man. Even though it was solely God's choice to extend mercy to man, there is still a required "willing" (John 7:17; Revelation 22:17) and "running" (Hebrews 12:1; 1 Corinthians 9:24-26) on the part of man in order to receive God's mercy. Because God's mercy does not unconditionally save everyone, but those that conditionally obey the will of God ( those that "willeth and runneth") are the ones that conditionally receive God's grace.
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MDC
Well-Known Member
Who has said man has no responsibility to obey God? You assume that simply because you believe salvation is dependent upon sinful man. Your question was what is the basis by which God shows mercy upon a sinner. The Bible means what it says. The Bible is very clear that it has nothing to do with mans efforts or the act of his will. "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.." Titus 3:5. It is according to the election of GRACE! And that in Christ and through His merits alone. Your whole statement is contradicting itself. Either God shows mercy, on the vessels of mercy, by their works and efforts or He doesn't. The simple fact that you refuse to believe God shows mercy apart from anything He sees in the sinner, is why you accuse God of being arbitrary in His decision to choose some over others. And is why you refuse to believe Romans 9:16. And is why you are foolish in saying such things
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TheSeabass
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I was just pointing out what Romans 9:16 does NOT say. There are some people who think they do not have to be obedient to the will of God to be saved.
MDC said:
The bible shows that both God and man have a role in man's salvation. Man must obey as you seem to agree that man has a responsibility in obeying God's will.[/quote]
MDC said:
Obedience to the will of God is the basis as to whom will or will not receive mercy, Jeremiah 18:8-10; Hebrews 5:9; Romans 6:17-18; Acts 10:35; etc
The verse you cite (Titus 3:5) excludes works of self righteousness. No man can develop his own plan of salvation to save himself for man must be obedient to God's plan of salvation for man. Again, obeying God's will is man's role in salvation.
Romans 10:3 "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."
There are two different works taking place in this one verse:
1) establishing their own righteousness
2) submitting/obeying God's righteousness
The Jews were doing the work of self righteousness in following their own traditions which does not save (as Titus 3:5 also says) rather than obeying God's commands (righteousness) that does save
MDC said:
The bible has no contradictions but is consistent in showing that those who are obedient to God's will are the ones' that receive mercy. Two kings in the OT, Pharaoh who did not obey the will of God who therefore did not receive mercy and the king of Nineveh who did obey by repenting in sackcloth and did receive mercy (Jonah 3:8-10). There is not a case of the disobedient receiving grace...unless and until they obey God's will.
The errors of Calvinism make it difficult (impossible) for Calvinists to give a basis as to why some receive mercy and others do not even though the bible consistently does give a basis.
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Marvin Knox
Senior Veteran
Nothing God does is purely arbitrary.
When we say that God's election is unconditional that does not mean that there is no reason at all for it. I simply means that it is unconditional on anything of value in fallen mankind.
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MDC
Well-Known Member
Man has absolutely no role in his own salvation. All he can do is seek Gods mercy and submit (by faith) to the righteousness of Christ and His merits alone. Romans 9:11 exposes your erroneous opinion that sinful mans obedience is the basis for God showing mercy on some. Which in turn teaches works based salvation. You accuse the Jews of being self righteousness, but yet cannot see your own teaching promotes self righteousness. The basis for one receiving mercy is left to God and Him alone by the pleasure of His will.. To the praise of the glory of His grace as Ephesians 1:6 states
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TheSeabass
Well-Known Member
save yourselves Acts 2:40
save thyself 1 Timothy 4:16
cleanse ourselves 2 Cor 7:1
cleanse your hands, purify your hearts James 4:8
you have purified your souls 1 Peter 1:22
if a man purge himself 2 Tim 2:21; 1 Cor 5:7
work out your own salvation Phil 2:12
wash away thy sins Acts 22:16
obey Him Hebrews 5:9
he that believeth John 3:16
MDC said:
Man does have a role in his salvation in seeking God Acts 17:27. No verse say man does nothing while God does everything.
MDC said:
ROmans 9 is not about how men are saved but Paul is refuting arguments he knew the Jews would have in God casting them off (Romans 11). The Jews thought simply because they were Abraham's descendants God had an obligation to save them and in Romans 9:6-13 Paul proved God does not have to makes His choices and promises on physical descent.
You posted "...but yet cannot see your own teaching promotes self righteousness." which is a very common straw man argument. I pointed out man is not saved by doing his OWN self righteousness but the bible shows man is saved by doing GOD'S righteous commandments. Some refuse to see the difference.
You posted "The basis for one receiving mercy is left to God and Him alone by the pleasure of His will" If such were the case, then God has left man completely in the dark to the point where a man has no idea if he is saved or not since man does not know the reason God saves one person but not another. I gave an example of two kings one receiving and one not receiving mercy based upon obedience to God. Do you need more examples of this? The bible is full of them.
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TheSeabass
Well-Known Member
What is the reason then?
Marvin Knox said:
Genesis 18:19 "For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him."
There was certainly something in Abraham and his children that God saw thereby making them to be the elect of God. There is a reason given as to why Abraham was chosen...for there was something "in" Abraham, Isaac and Jacob that God saw with that being the very reason they were chosen:
"That God chose Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob did not depend upon anything in them .... The choice depended solely on God's gracious will" William M. Greathouse
Such opinions as [William Greathouse] clearly go far beyond anything the word of God says and should be rejected unless they can be proved. Furthermore, there is abundant proof in God's word that it was something "in men" that entered into God's election of them. For example, God elected Abraham, and why? If God is to be understood as either rational or just, there had to be a reason why. Human intelligence demands to know what it is; and the gracious and righteous God deigned to reveal to his human children just what the reason was, thus:
And the Lord said, For I know him (Abraham) that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the Lord, to do justice and judgment; that the Lord may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him (Genesis 18:19).
In this epic passage of God's word, God stated his reasons for the choice of Abraham. God categorically stated, that he knew that Abraham would command his posterity after him, that they would keep the way of the Lord to do justice and judgment, "that the Lord may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him," the latter clause being a dogmatic affirmation that without the qualities God foreknew in Abraham, the fulfillment of the promise would have been impossible. Thus they greatly err who fancy that it "was nothing in" Abraham that entered into God's election. That there was indeed something "in" Abraham that formed the basis of God's just and righteous act should have been assumed, even without the statement of what it was; but such is the perversity of human thought that it is even denied AFTER the statement of it!
Going a bit further, this example of why God chose Abraham is clearly applicable to the rejection of Esau. God saw in him a different "manner" of people from Abraham, making the fulfillment of the promise through Esau an utter impossibility; and that is something "in" Esau that resulted in God's rejection of him. The insinuation that God "discriminated" against Esau capriciously is ridiculous.
And to carry this postulate even further, in every case of election, there has to be an element in the elected that distinguishes him from those not elected; and to deny this is to make election to be a totally immoral and capricious thing, unworthy even of people, much less of God. Nor can such a certainty as this bear the slightest resemblance to any theory of anyone's ever meriting salvation. Even when the election occurs, at least partially upon the basis of what is "in" the elected distinguishing them from the non-elected, the election is still without the merit of the elected and founded in God's love and grace, but not upon "grace alone," the proof of this being that God's grace has come alike upon the totality of mankind (Titus 3:11), which includes the non-elected. Factors others than grace are therefore involved in election. How could a so-called election, based on grace alone, discriminate between the elected and the non-elected, if no other factor was involved? The blind man in the cellar, maybe? Coffman Commentaries
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Marvin Knox
Senior Veteran
Whatever reason brings Him the most glory in any given circumstance.
"Abraham will surely become a great and mighty nation, and in him all the nations of the earth will be blessed? For I have chosen him, so that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing righteousness and justice, so that the Lord may bring upon Abraham what He has spoken about him.” Genesis 18:18-19 NASB
"Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all nations on earth will be blessed through him. For I have chosen him, so that he will direct his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing what is right and just, so that the Lord will bring about for Abraham what he has promised him.” "...." NIV
"Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? For I have chosen him, that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing righteousness and justice, so that the Lord may bring to Abraham what he has promised him.” "...." ESV
"Abraham is destined to become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth will be blessed through him? For I have known (chosen, acknowledged) him [as My own], so that he may teach and command his children and [the sons of] his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing what is righteous and just, so that the Lord may bring upon Abraham what He has promised him.” "...." AMP
"his family will become a great and powerful nation that will be a blessing to all other nations on earth. I have chosen him to teach his family to obey me forever and to do what is right and fair. Then I will give Abraham many descendants, just as I promised.” "...." CEV
"His descendants will become a great and mighty nation, and through him I will bless all the nations. I have chosen him in order that he may command his sons and his descendants to obey me and to do what is right and just. If they do, I will do everything for him that I have promised.” "...." GNT
"Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all the nations on the earth will pronounce blessings on one another using his name. I have chosen him so that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing what is right and just. Then the Lord will give to Abraham what he promised him.” "...." NET
I could go on I suppose. But the point is that you and your chosen commentator have clearly chosen a translation which allows you to present things according to your preconceived doctrine rather than researching the true meaning of the passage and bringing you doctrine to line up with the teaching of scripture.
I understand why it may be more comfortable for you to line up with this "Coffman" commentary as opposed to lining up with Greathouse and the vast majority of solid systematic theologians over the years (or me for that matter).
But you are wrong concerning this doctrine - even if opposing views seem unfair to you.
It seems that God's ways are not our ways. That is especially true when we don't have all the facts.
Even when we do have the curtain drawn back a little for us (such as the JOB case) - God's way of doing things seems to not be the way we think He should act.
I personally am willing to accept what He says about the way He acts rather than bend what He says to meet my expectations of how He should act.
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TheSeabass
Well-Known Member
This does not give a basis as to why God has mercy upon one and not another.
The bible time and time again gives obedience to the will of God as to why one receives mercy or not. Since this doe snot fit Calvinistic theology Calvinist are force to either shuffle around as to what the basis is or claim that man does not know the basis as to why one is saved thereby leaving man in the dark not being able to know if he will be saved or not.
Marvin Knox said:
You quoted from some not so good, biased translations.
Gen 18:19 KJV "For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him."
Abraham WILL command his children, God foreknew what would happen therefore it was not left up to random chance in what Abraham MAY or MAY NOT do. God foreknew the character of Abraham that Abraham for a certain fact would obey Him in commanding his children and this certainty in what Abraham WILL do was what God saw "in" Abraham.
(my emp)
Genesis 18:19: We consider this one of the most important verses in the Bible, because it reveals a key reason why Abraham was chosen to be the head of the select people chosen to perpetuate the name and worship of God upon earth, at the time when the advancing twilight of paganism was descending upon mankind, and which would soon reach the blackness of midnight. That reason was the ability of Abraham to "command his children after him." Some of the more recent versions obscure this;..... Note:
(1) "For I know him, that he will command his children after him ..." (KJV).
(2) "For I know him that he will command his children, and his household ... " (Douay).
(3) "I have chosen him that he may charge his children, and his household ..." (RSV).
(4) "I have chosen him in order that he may command his sons and his descendants ..." (the Good News Bible).
That the first two of the above versions contradict the other two is obvious, and we do not hesitate to register a preference for the first two. Although we are not familiar with the textual arguments leading to the change in the later versions, it is a safe conjecture that the prevailing reasons were theological; and that is exactly the basis of the reasons for rejecting such changes. God did not choose Abraham so that he might (maybe) command his children after him, but because he knew that he "would be able to do it." That is an ability sadly lacking among the Gentiles even yet, and, sadly enough, lacking in the vast majority of mankind. That God had correctly evaluated this particular ability of Abraham is seen in the cohesiveness and perpetuity of Jewish traditions, even yet, through the instrument of the Jewish family. All people should thank God for this ability of Abraham, for he had the power to perpetuate the name and worship of Almighty God upon the earth through the long, long midnight of Gentile paganism. Coffman Commentary
Greathouse and Calvinism are wrong for God did foreknow that Abraham of his own will, own choosing would obey in commanding his children and that was what was 'in' Abraham that God saw and the reason for choosing him. God did not leave it up to chance.
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Marvin Knox
Senior Veteran
Of course it does.
It does not innumerate every single situation in history and how it brings God glory. But it most certainly does state the reason why God chooses to do certain things and not others.
Who said otherwise?
A person does not receive mercy until he obeys God in coming to Christ and is justified by his faith.
This is Calvinistic doctrine all the way.
Of course it fits with Calvinistic doctrine. This is what all Calvinists I am aware of teach.
Calvinists do not claim that man does not know the basis as to why one is saved.
They do claim that they do not know why the Father chooses to open the eyes of some and not others so that they can receive salvation by faith. But then the Bible simply addresses that question with the statement that God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy.
There is no question that God shows mercy to those who have faith. There is, however a question as to why He begins a good work in some which brings them to faith so that they will be shown mercy in the day of judgment - and does not do the same for others.
None of us deserve to be given to the Son by the Father and thus drawn to the Son by the Father. We are saved by grace through faith.
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TheSeabass
Well-Known Member
You posted earlier "Whatever reason brings Him the most glory in any given circumstance."
So what is the reason that God chooses one person over another that brings Him glory?
Why choosing Joe over John brings glory to God and not the other way around? What was different about Joe over John? You simply cannot suggest that God's choosing brings Him glory with no basis for the choosing.
Marvin Knox said:
So Calvinistic doctrine puts the work of obeying BEFORE justification/salvation?
I NEVER seen a Calvinists say that before.
Marvin Knox said:
I have yet to see a Calvinist say one obeys to be saved. All I have seen Calvinists say one is saved not by works but saved by faith only then after one is saved one can obey.
It cannot be assumed since Romans 9:18 gives no basis that there is no basis or man cannot know the basis. When other verses show that obeying or not obeying the will of God is the basis.
You posted "A person does not receive mercy until he obeys God in coming to Christ and is justified by his faith." I am curious as to how many other Calvinists agree with your statement here in putting obedient works before receiving mercy/grace/salvation.
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Those 'other verses' about obedience are just exposing the transformed heart will be obedient to the gospel.
As Peter tells us straight up very first verse, first epistle.
1 Peter 1New International Version (NIV)
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:
Grace and peace be yours in abundance.
Praise to God for a Living Hope
3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, 5 who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 In all this you greatly rejoice,
Well the ELECT should greatly rejoice having been chosen by God to obtain salvation.
But some people seem to HATE being chosen....
As Paul also tells this church here
2 Thessalonians 2:13-14New King James Version (NKJV)
13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,
14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
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Marvin Knox
Senior Veteran
I cannot innumerate for you every conceivable circumstance in the spiritual realm and in the physical realm that may exist at any given time.
I could dream up a few examples for you. But then so could you.
But since you insist on an example - take the one of Paul - election of a much less deserving person can hardly be conceived of.
But at that time and place in history Paul served the purpose of God in so far as bringing Him maximum glory over against choosing someone else.
Sure - Paul had more potential than some seal hunter on the North slope of North America with no education for example. But the only reason for choosing Paul for salvation and leaving the Eskimo in his sin, passing him by, was because it would bring more glory to God.
The point is that neither Paul or our imaginary Eskimo deserved the mercy which it would take to open his eyes so that he could see the truth of the gospel. It was, in the word of Calvinists, unconditional grace.
I suppose I could imaging a situation in the spirit realm having to do with certain angelic battles which could come into play I suppose. But why don't you go ahead and let your imagination go wild on that one.
I'm not sure how many Calvinists you have given such a chance to. But, of course, the work of obeying by believing comes before justification. Every Calvinist believes that just as I hope you do.
We are commanded by God to obey the demands of the gospel. Trusting in Christ for our only hope of salvation is obedience. Only after thus obeying is a person justified.
Reformed theologians above anyone else teach justification by faith alone.
No - Calvinist teach that only after drawing by the Father can one obey.
One cannot be saved until he obeys. No one obeys in their natural state (according to Calvinist teaching). Therefore they teach that what is necessary to understand and obey is a new creation - one that comes from God by grace and not because the old man deserved regeneration.
No one said that there was no basis for God's giving a person to the Son by drawing him so as to believe the gospel.
They have simply said that that basis was not the deserving nature of the sinner.
All Calvinist believe that salvation comes by the obedience of faith in Christ.
What they apparently believe that is different from you is that you believe there is something in some sinners which makes them more deserving than other men of having their natures changed so that they can believe while others are passed by.
Calvinist simply teach that the reason for that election is only known by God and that it is not because any particular person deserves it more than another.
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This thread is a repetition of the false doctrines made infamous by Calvin.
The Biblical TRUTH:
Mark 1: 14b-15 (NASB)
Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, (Divine Messiah has come!) and saying,
“The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; (Divine Messiah has come!)
REPENT (spirit turns to God) AND BELIEVE in the gospel.”
God draws / calls ALL of Man's "dead" spirits.
God gives GRACE, unmerited and unconditional LOVE and MERCY. Eph. 2
God gives spirit-led FAITH / BELIEF, ...not just intellectual acknowledgment. Eph. 2
Man's spirit ACCEPTS. (or rejects) John 3.
Man's spirit is CHANGED / TRANSFORMED / born again from above. John 3.
Man's SANTIFICATION process BEGINS...being led by God unto "good works".Eph. 2
God does all the spiritual "work". Man simply: BELIEVES unto The Salvation EVENT
...then...
FOLLOWS unto The Sanctification PROCESS.
STEPS to salvation!
Ephesians 2:8-10 (NIV)...accept the GIFT!
For it is by Grace you have been Saved, through (spirit-led) Faith (/ Belief)
—and this (faith) not from yourselves, it is the Gift of God
— not by "works", so that no one can boast.
For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works,
which God prepared in advance for us to do.
John 1:12,14 (NIV)...Receive...Believe
Yet to all who RECEIVED him,
to those who BELIEVED in His name, (Jesus the Christ)
He gave the right to become CHILDREN of God...
The Word (logos) became flesh and made his dwelling among us.
We have seen His glory, the glory of the One and Only,(Jesus)
who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
John 3 (NIV)...Jesus teaches Nicodemus...extracts...BELIEVE...BORN AGAIN
...“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is BORN AGAIN (spiritually from above)
he cannot see the kingdom of God.”...
'You must be BORN AGAIN (spiritually).' (from above)
The wind blows wherever it pleases.
You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going.
So it is with everyone BORN of the Spirit....(God the Holy Spirit)
Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert,
so the Son of Man must be lifted up, (Jesus crucified?)
that everyone who BELIEVES in him may have ETERNAL LIFE...
Acts 16: 30-31 (NIV)...BELIEVE
Paul and Silas...He (jailor) then brought them out and asked,
"Sirs, what must I do to be SAVED?" (spiritually)
They replied, "BELIEVE in the Lord Jesus, and you WILL be saved
—you and your household."
Romans 10: ...CALL
13 for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
John 6:44
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
The Biblical TRUTH:
Mark 1: 14b-15 (NASB)
Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, (Divine Messiah has come!) and saying,
“The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; (Divine Messiah has come!)
REPENT (spirit turns to God) AND BELIEVE in the gospel.”
God draws / calls ALL of Man's "dead" spirits.
God gives GRACE, unmerited and unconditional LOVE and MERCY. Eph. 2
God gives spirit-led FAITH / BELIEF, ...not just intellectual acknowledgment. Eph. 2
Man's spirit ACCEPTS. (or rejects) John 3.
Man's spirit is CHANGED / TRANSFORMED / born again from above. John 3.
Man's SANTIFICATION process BEGINS...being led by God unto "good works".Eph. 2
God does all the spiritual "work". Man simply: BELIEVES unto The Salvation EVENT
...then...
FOLLOWS unto The Sanctification PROCESS.
STEPS to salvation!
Ephesians 2:8-10 (NIV)...accept the GIFT!
For it is by Grace you have been Saved, through (spirit-led) Faith (/ Belief)
—and this (faith) not from yourselves, it is the Gift of God
— not by "works", so that no one can boast.
For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works,
which God prepared in advance for us to do.
John 1:12,14 (NIV)...Receive...Believe
Yet to all who RECEIVED him,
to those who BELIEVED in His name, (Jesus the Christ)
He gave the right to become CHILDREN of God...
The Word (logos) became flesh and made his dwelling among us.
We have seen His glory, the glory of the One and Only,(Jesus)
who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
John 3 (NIV)...Jesus teaches Nicodemus...extracts...BELIEVE...BORN AGAIN
...“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is BORN AGAIN (spiritually from above)
he cannot see the kingdom of God.”...
'You must be BORN AGAIN (spiritually).' (from above)
The wind blows wherever it pleases.
You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going.
So it is with everyone BORN of the Spirit....(God the Holy Spirit)
Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert,
so the Son of Man must be lifted up, (Jesus crucified?)
that everyone who BELIEVES in him may have ETERNAL LIFE...
Acts 16: 30-31 (NIV)...BELIEVE
Paul and Silas...He (jailor) then brought them out and asked,
"Sirs, what must I do to be SAVED?" (spiritually)
They replied, "BELIEVE in the Lord Jesus, and you WILL be saved
—you and your household."
Romans 10: ...CALL
13 for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
John 6:44
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
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TheSeabass
Well-Known Member
What you post here puts obedience before salvation, i.e., obedience before receiving mercy thereby man has a role in receiving mercy by being obedient to the will of God.
sdowney717 said:
In 1 Pet 1 to "God's elect".."who have been chosen" is referring to the group Christian and those that obeyed the gospel and are part of that group.
1 Pet 1:2 "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, (elect how?) through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."
This verse tells us how one becomes part of the elect group called Christian. It has nothing to do with ant arbitrary unconditional choice God made about certain individuals before the world began.
Becoming a part of the elect involves sanctification of the Spirit. How does the Spirit sanctify men? Through His written word and not is some mysterious, miraculous unconditional way apart from the word..."Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth." (John 17:17). The Word instructs men on how to be sanctified, set apart. Sanctification is "in Christ" (1 Corointhians 1:2) and it takes obedience to the word to be in Christ and sanctified.
It also takes obedience to be of the elect group. The written word tells men what to obey in order to be saved therefore it is not up to man to set up his own plan of salvation even though man does this as seen by the 1000's of religious groups and all the contradictions. Man therefore does have a role in his own salvation by obeying what the Spirit's written word says to do as in the command to be baptized. For Peter says in verse 22 "Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth...."
Sprinkling with the blood of Jesus. Not until one obeys the Spirit's written instruction to be baptized is one sprinkled with the blood of Jesus having sin cleansed away.
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2 Thess 2:13 "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:"
The "you" that is chosen refers to the group Christian and this verse tells us how one become part of the chosen..."through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" Again, an individual does not become part of the chosen by some unconditional choice God made before the world began but instead one becomes part of the chosen (group Christian) by sanctification of the Spirit (happens thru the written word of the Spirit) and belief of the truth. "Belief of the truth" shows that man for a certainly has a role in becoming part of the chosen. For those Thessalonian Christians could become lost if they did not maintain a belief of the truth (1 Thess 3:5).
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So being saved/sanctified/elect/recieving mercy has a basis as clearly spelled out in these two passages with man having a role in it by obeying the written word of the Holy Spirit, a belief of the truth...."Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth..."
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TheSeabass
Well-Known Member
God could choose whom He wanted to take part in the office of an Apostle and God foreknew that if He chose Saul, Saul of his own free will would choose to accept that position, so there was nothing predetermined about it apart from the will of Saul. Saul became part of the chosen group Christian again by his own choice and not predetermined by God. Paul said of himself that "I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision" (Acts 26:19) showing he could have chosen to disobey but he chose to obey and thereby had a role in his own salvation by obeying, (Acts 22:16). Therefore Saul/Paul became part of the elect NOT by some unconditional, predetermined choice God made before the world apart from the will of Saul but Saul became part of the elect as everyone else who did by obedience, (1 Peter 1:2) belief of the truth (2 Thessalonians 2:13).
Marvin Knox said:
I have NEVER seen a Calvinists 1) call belief a work or 2) put a work BEFORE justification as you do. When I say one must do the work of obeying BEFORE he can be justified/saved, I get attacked and accused of having a "works based salvation" where I am trying to earn my salvation. I was told earlier in this thread that being saved/receiving mercy has nothing to do with the willing and running of man.
Marvin Knox said:
Wait a minute.. Above you called "belief" an obedient work when you said "..the work of obeying by believing comes before justification." Here you say justification is by "faith only".
So is one justified by an obedient work or by faith only?
Marvin Knox said:
God does His drawing by the word when men are "taught" heard" and "learn" then men of their own free will obey by coming to Christ John 6:45. There is not mystical, irresistible drawing done apart form the word and man's free will.
Marvin Knox said:
You post:
One cannot be saved until he obeys.
All Calvinist believe that salvation comes by the obedience of faith in Christ.
Other than you, I have NEVER seen a Calvinist say either of these things but instead they tell me one is FIRST saved THEN obeys where you put obedience first.
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Marvin Knox
Senior Veteran
No - they say that one is elect first (with the expected drawing and giving by the Father as per Jesus words coming as a result of God's unconditional election).
They say that then one is able to obey the command to believe because of those actions done by the Father (some but not all would say that that includes "regeneration").
They say that then one receives the Holy Spirit based on their obedience to the command to believe on Christ and be justified before God - which in turn allows them to work and obey in the process of sanctification.
Most Calvinists are very particular in their wording regarding the order of the various phases involved in soteriology.
Election is not salvation. No Calvinist says that it is. That is a straw man on your part.
Even the elect were children of wrath before and up until they exercised saving faith.
All Reformed (like myself) believe that to be true whether they self identify as a "Calvinist" or not.
You are conflating election with justification. That is very similar to what you do with predestination and the idea of coercive force by God.
No Calvinist believes or teaches that election equals justification - only you say such a thing. No Calvinist believes or teaches that predestination equals coercive force. - only you say such a thing.
I doubt that you are being "attacked" because you say "one must do the work of obeying BEFORE he can be justified/saved". Likely what you are being taken to task about is your saying in effect that fallen men have the ability to and inclination to understand and obey the command to believe in and of themselves. The scriptures teach otherwise.
While that is not a full on "Pelagian" view - it is a simi-Pelagian view and it is wrong. In a nutshell, Pelagians believe that fallen man can earn his salvation. I do not believe that you think that.
But you seem to deny that fallen men have, as a result of God's judgment, an inability and lack of inclination to believe the gospel aside from a opening of the eyes to truth and a drawing by the Father to the Son ending in belief and justification. You do seem to believe that and it is wrong according to Romans and also the direct teaching of Jesus.
Romans teaches that mankind in the natural state is under a judgment which includes an abandonment to unbelief.
The Lord taught that no one can come to Him unless given to Him and thus drawn to Him by the Father. He even told Peter that "flesh and blood did not reveal this to you - but my Father in Heaven.
If I am making it a point to use wording which most Calvinist do not use with you - it is only because I care enough about you to try (perhaps in vain) to reason with you and show where you are depicting Calvinistic beliefs wrongly and arguing against straw men much of the time - perhaps even doing it with not realizing it since you misunderstand what others believe and teach.
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