Propitiation

sdowney717 · Aug 5, 2017

About who are the genuine children of God, Paul tells us they are born after the Spirit as a child of promise, and NOT after the flesh as those people were who Paul was talking to in Acts 17.

Note verse 8 to gain understanding.

Romans 9:6-9New King James Version (NKJV)

6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they arenot all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”

to be COUNTED AS THE SEED OF ABRAHAM, you must be born of God's promise, which means foreknown and predestined by God as they are like children gifts to Abraham and therefore gifted to Christ as His children. You must be born again, to be a child of God. To be born of God, is to be one of the promised children to Abraham, that Abraham would have a vast multitude of descendants after the SPIRIT and not after the FLESH, which is why God says in ISAAC your seed shall be called, not as Ishmael who was born according to the flesh.

These stars, descendants, are the children of promise, but they can not be as Ishmael born after the flesh as natural men, theses stars are as Isaac was, a child of Promise born due to the intervention and promise of God to Abraham. If your a born of God believer, they you are one of Abraham's descendants.

Genesis 15:5
Then He brought him outside and said, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.”
Genesis 22:17
blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies.
Genesis 26:4
And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed;

NT example
Galatians 3:28-29New King James Version (NKJV)
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Does anyone else understand these things?

Galatians 4
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.

29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now.

30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.”

31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.

justbyfaith · Aug 5, 2017

God disciplines and chastens His sons, but He punishes those who do not belong to Him with hell and then the lake of fire. Because they (the latter) have not received the blood atonement for their sins.

Jesus is not a magician but the miracle-working God. In saying that He is your heart is not right in the sight of God. You need to pray that this thought of your heart may be forgiven you. For I perceive that you are in the gall of bitterness, having a similar attitude towards God as had Simon the sorceror in Acts of the Apostles 8.

And those who deny the blood atonement are not truly Christian as far as I am concerned. God in no way has a heart problem, neither is he weak, in that He required the blood of Jesus to satisfy His justice.

bling · Aug 6, 2017

sdowney717 said:
They can not be children of God. If so then some of God's children go to hell.
Paul is using one of their pagan poets to tell them their is only one true God in heaven who made all things, they did worship many many gods and goddesses.

Paul says only one God is their creator, so 'offspring' since God made man in His image, but they do not belong to God, so they are not His children.

though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’

Your argument is with Paul, since Paul is conveying the idea supported by their own pagan poets that, “since we are the offspring of God”/ all humans are children of God, Paul said it so why do you not believe it?

Ron Gurley · Aug 8, 2017

PROPITIATION:
...propitiation carries the basic idea of appeasement, or satisfaction, specifically towards God.
Propitiation is a two-part act:
1.appeasing the wrath of an offended person and
2. being reconciled to them.
Propitiation: that by which Man becomes spiritually consistent with God's just character to pardon the guilty. The propitiation does not procure God's love or make him loving; The propitiation only spiritually renders Man consistent for God to exercise his love towards Man.The Greek word "hilasterion" (KJV, "mercy-seat") is used.
Jewish law: On the great day of atonement, the high priest carried the blood of the sacrifice which he offered for all the people
within the veil and sprinkled with it the "mercy-seat," and so made "propitiation" / satisfaction.

Romans 3: 21-26 (NASB)...imputed Righteousness, Redemption, Justification, PROPITIATION...by Faith
But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe;
for there is no distinction;
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
being justified as a GIFT by His GRACE through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
whom God displayed publicly as a PROPITIATION in His blood through faith.
(ALL) This was to demonstrate His righteousness,
because in the forbearance of God He PASSED OVER the sins previously committed;
for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time,
so that He would be JUST and the JUSTIFIER of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Hebrews 2:17 (NASB)...Jesus is our High Priest and sacrifice
Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, (True Man) so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, (True God)
to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

1 John 2: 1-2 (NASB)...Christ Is Our Advocate
My little children, (believers)
I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; (takes away our guilt)
and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

1 John 4: 7-13 (NASB)...God Is Love
Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God;
and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.
By this the love of God was manifested in us,
that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him.
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.(takes away our guilt)
Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.
No one has seen God at any time;
if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected (made mature) in us.
By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us,
because He has given us of His Spirit.
We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

justbyfaith · Aug 8, 2017

bling said:
Your argument is with Paul, since Paul is conveying the idea supported by their own pagan poets that, “since we are the offspring of God”/ all humans are children of God, Paul said it so why do you not believe it?

It depends on how it is used in the context. In one context all human beings are the "offspring" of God; in another context you must be born again (John 3) to be a child of God: and those who do not have faith in Jesus are not His children.

bling · Aug 8, 2017

justbyfaith said:
It depends on how it is used in the context. In one context all human beings are the "offspring" of God; in another context you must be born again (John 3) to be a child of God: and those who do not have faith in Jesus are not His children.

Paul is saying at least at one time everyone was a child of God, but that does not mean they cannot volunteer by sinning to become children of satan. You are the child of the one you obey. Is a new born a child of God at birth?

justbyfaith · Aug 11, 2017

That which is merely born of flesh is merely flesh; but that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6.

Only those who are born again of the Holy Spirit are the children of the Lord. This means receving the Lord in prayer, calling on His name for salvation. (i.e. Jesus Christ of Nazareth, I receive you as my Lord and Saviour, and I call on Your name for salvation. Fill me with Your Holy Spirit and make me born again, of You.)

bling · Aug 11, 2017

justbyfaith said:
That which is merely born of flesh is merely flesh; but that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6.

Only those who are born again of the Holy Spirit are the children of the Lord. This means receving the Lord in prayer, calling on His name for salvation. (i.e. Jesus Christ of Nazareth, I receive you as my Lord and Saviour, and I call on Your name for salvation. Fill me with Your Holy Spirit and make me born again, of You.)

Are you in disagreement with Paul?

sdowney717 · Aug 12, 2017

bling said:
Are you in disagreement with Paul?

Are you in disagreement with Christ and Paul?
John 4:24
God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

Flesh is flesh and spirit is spirit. Those who are in the flesh CAN NOT PLEASE GOD.
The carnal mind is at war with God.
All unbelievers are in the flesh and at war with God.
They are certainly not His children who are born of God so that they are no longer in the flesh but in the Spirit.

Romans 8
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

amariselle · Aug 12, 2017

bling said:
Paul is saying at least at one time everyone was a child of God, but that does not mean they cannot volunteer by sinning to become children of satan. You are the child of the one you obey. Is a new born a child of God at birth?

So, if a child disobeys their parents, are they no longer their parents' child?

Butch5 · Aug 12, 2017

justbyfaith said:
In Leviticus 26:10 it is written, And ye shall eat old store, and bring forth the old because of the new.

Therefore I will bring up an old doctrine that is essential to our faith in this post.

Romans 3:23-26, For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

I want to address the parts of this scripture passage that I have underlined. First, God has set forth Jesus to be a propitiation through faith in his blood.

The word propitiation basically means appeasement and literally refers to the appeasement of God's justice and wrath against sin. Jesus basically took the penalty of our sins upon Himself and suffered the wrath of God upon Himself and received the justice due unto us for the wrongs that we have committed. The last thing underlined in this passage says that God is both just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. How can this be?

There are two seemingly irreconcilable attributes found in the heart of God: His justice and His mercy. His justice requires that He mete out the exact and full punishment for every sin; and mercy desires that we receive less than the full punishment. So how can God be both merciful and just? It would seem impossible. But the foolishness of God is wiser than men. God meted out the just penalty for our sins on Jesus Christ His only begotten Son. Thus His justice is satisfied, and those who believe in Jesus are not recipients of God's justice but of the fullest extent of His mercy: we receive no punishment for our sins except for the discipline and chastening that a Father gives to His sons (see Hebrews 12:5-11). Concerning justice God's justice is satisfied in the Cross to those who believe in Jesus.

Now another thing underlined is that there is the remission of sins that are past. Now this would seem to fly in the face of that doctrine, that says that we are forgiven of past, present, and future sin. Such a doctrine implies that there is no need for repentance in our coming to the Lord for salvation.

In genuine repentance there is a strong turning away from the sins that one is repenting of. If one commits the sin again that he says he repented of, it is a sign that he didn't truly repent. Now if I sin as a believer of course there is forgiveness if I bring that sin into the light and confess it so that I can be forgiven and cleansed from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). The goal however is sanctification, and this can be done in a complete manner (1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, Hebrews 10:10-17, 1 John 3:5-9) so that repentance affects the whole of a man's life and he does not sin anymore (1 John 3:9). The propitiation is concerning the remission of sins that are past, and remission is defined in much the same way that you might define someone as being in remission if they had cancer. A cancer that is in remission is still in the body, but it is no longer a threat and cannot do anything anymore to cause harm to the host. Likewise, when our sins go into remission (see also Acts of the Apostles 2:38), the sin nature is put to death (crucified...Galatians 5:24) so that it no longer has any kind of say in the behaviour of the one in whom the sin that is in remission dwells.

Now the fact that propititiation is through faith in his blood makes me think of certain scriptures.

Hebrews 13:12, Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctifiy the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.

1 John 1:7, But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

The blood of Jesus has sanctifying and cleansing power, so this propitiation through faith in His blood makes God both just and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus in another sense: the recipient of propitiation is made righteous (Romans 5:17, Romans 5:19) as the free gift of God, and as the result God is able to declare him to be righteous.

You've got some problems here. How does punishing the innocent make God Just? Christ knew no sin. If God punished Him for your sin it doesn't make God just. There is another problem. If God did punish Christ for the believers sin, why does the believer die. Paul wrote that the wages of sin is death. Believers, for whom Christ died, still die. Another problem is that the if Christ's death was a payment to God for the believers sin, then there is no forgiveness since the sins were paid for.

Ron Gurley · Aug 12, 2017

Q:..."IF a child disobeys their parents, are they no longer their parents' child?..."

A: "IF a "child of God" disobeys God, they can be forgiven upon confession (1 John 1), BUT they are not returning their parents'love.

John 14:15...Jesus' BIG "IF's"
“IF you love Me, you will keep My commandments.(PRECEPTS: LOVE COMMANDED!)

Such as: "FOLLOW" + "OBEY" + "TRUST" + be in the WILL OF GOD + "LOVE "one another" + ETC

John 13:35
By this all men will know that you are My disciples, IF you have love for "one another".”

John 14:23...Jesus answered and said to him,
“IF anyone loves Me, he will keep My word;
and My Father will love him,
and We will come to him and make Our abode (DWELLING) with him.

John 15:10
IF you keep My commandments, you will abide (DWELL) in My love;
just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

Romans 13:9
For this, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,”
and IF there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying,
“You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” (LOVE GOD + LOVE NEIGHBOR AS SELF)

justbyfaith · Aug 12, 2017

Butch5 said:
You've got some problems here. How does punishing the innocent make God Just? Christ knew no sin. If God punished Him for your sin it doesn't make God just. There is another problem. If God did punish Christ for the believers sin, why does the believer die. Paul wrote that the wages of sin is death. Believers, for whom Christ died, still die. Another problem is that the if Christ's death was a payment to God for the believers sin, then there is no forgiveness since the sins were paid for.

Hello @Butch5,

Who is to say that punishing Christ in our stead doesn't mean God is just (you)? He did it so that mercy and justice could come together. A song was written, Justice and mercy meet at the Cross.

Now if God satisfies His justice by sending Christ to die in our place so that He can give us mercy and still be just, then your naysaying does not change the fact that God's justice is satisfied in the Cross.

Jesus dying in our place is an integral part of the good news of the Bible. To believe that God satisfied His justice in the Cross so that He could show mercy is an essential belief to our Christianity.

The word "propitiation" means "an appeasement of wrath or justice". And it is clear from scripture that the death of Jesus Christ on the Cross is the propitiation for our sins.

justbyfaith · Aug 12, 2017

bling said:
Are you in disagreement with Paul?

"offspring" refers to those who are created by God the Father in His image, and includes the entire human race.

"children of God" on the other hand, refers to those who are born again of the Holy Spirit. It speaks of only those who have placed their faith in Jesus for their salvation; to those who have come to the Father through Him who is the way and the truth and the life.

Butch5 · Aug 12, 2017

justbyfaith said:
Hello @Butch5,

Who is to say that punishing Christ in our stead doesn't mean God is just (you)? He did it so that mercy and justice could come together. A song was written, Justice and mercy meet at the Cross.

Who is to say that punishing Christ in our stead does mean that God is just? Paul didn't say that God punished Christ in our stead, that's just the interpretation you gave of that passage. However, you didn't answer the question. How does punishing the innocent Christ for the sins of others make God just?

Now if God satisfies His justice by sending Christ to die in our place so that He can give us mercy and still be just, then your naysaying does not change the fact that God's justice is satisfied in the Cross.

You presupposed that God's just must be satisfied, you haven't made that case.

Jesus dying in our place is an integral part of the good news of the Bible. To believe that God satisfied His justice in the Cross so that He could show mercy is an essential belief to our Christianity.

That Jesus died for men is definitely an integral part of the Good News. However, that it was to satisfy God's justice isn't in the Scriptures. That's an idea that was born in the 11th Century from an man named Anslem of Canterbury and his satisfaction model of the atonement and was later tweaked by the Reformers into what is known as the Penal model of the atonement. It may be essential to Reformation theology, however, it's not essential to Christianity.

The word "propitiation" means "an appeasement of wrath or justice". And it is clear from scripture that the death of Jesus Christ on the Cross is the propitiation for our sins.

The form of the Greek word that is translated "propiation" appears 15 time in the Scriptures and the only place it's translated propitiation is in the passage you quoted. Everywhere else it is translated "mercy seat". One has to wonder why the translators chose to change this one instance to propitiation rather than mercy seat as they translated all of the other occurrences. Do you suppose maybe it better fit their theology?

As I said, if Christ's death was to appease God, then there is no forgiveness. One's sins weren't forgiven, they were paid for. The funny thing is, all through Scripture we God saying that He will forgive sins. Nowhere do we find that He is accepting payment for sins.

The key is to figure out how God can forgive sins and yet Christ have died for sin. The problem many have is that they start from the idea of Penal atonement. This understanding of the atonement, to put it simply, is wrong.

amariselle · Aug 12, 2017

Ron Gurley said:
Q:..."IF a child disobeys their parents, are they no longer their parents' child?..."

A: "IF a "child of God" disobeys God, they can be forgiven upon confession (1 John 1), BUT they are not returning their parents'love.

John 14:15...Jesus' BIG "IF's"
“IF you love Me, you will keep My commandments.(PRECEPTS: LOVE COMMANDED!)

Such as: "FOLLOW" + "OBEY" + "TRUST" + be in the WILL OF GOD + "LOVE "one another" + ETC

John 13:35
By this all men will know that you are My disciples, IF you have love for "one another".”

John 14:23...Jesus answered and said to him,
“IF anyone loves Me, he will keep My word;
and My Father will love him,
and We will come to him and make Our abode (DWELLING) with him.

John 15:10
IF you keep My commandments, you will abide (DWELL) in My love;
just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

Romans 13:9
For this, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,”
and IF there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying,
“You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” (LOVE GOD + LOVE NEIGHBOR AS SELF)

Agreed, I was asking however, if when we do mess up and fail to obey Him perfectly, we then cease being His child?

bling · Aug 13, 2017

sdowney717 said:
Are you in disagreement with Christ and Paul?
John 4:24
God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

Flesh is flesh and spirit is spirit. Those who are in the flesh CAN NOT PLEASE GOD.
The carnal mind is at war with God.
All unbelievers are in the flesh and at war with God.
They are certainly not His children who are born of God so that they are no longer in the flesh but in the Spirit.

Romans 8
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Here is what Paul said to a bunch of nonbelievers:

Acts 17: 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’ 29 Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising. 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,

You want to quote Ro. 8 which is strictly addressing Christians, but in Ro. 7 Paul talks about a time he was in obedience to the Law he knew but after learning about coveting he realized he could not obey all God’s Laws with his own power.

Do you believe babies in the womb are sinners?

bling · Aug 13, 2017

amariselle said:
So, if a child disobeys their parents, are they no longer their parents' child?

We cannot compare the two so easily, but in one respect when I am rebelliously disobedient against my parent I am no long the child they raised.
God does not kick us out for anything we did, but if we want to go over to satan and be his slave child God allows us to do it, like the Father did with the prodigal son.

bling · Aug 13, 2017

justbyfaith said:
"offspring" refers to those who are created by God the Father in His image, and includes the entire human race.

"children of God" on the other hand, refers to those who are born again of the Holy Spirit. It speaks of only those who have placed their faith in Jesus for their salvation; to those who have come to the Father through Him who is the way and the truth and the life.

We as God's offspring means we would start out as children of God, but turning to willingly follow satan as our master means we loss our child status.

amariselle · Aug 13, 2017

bling said:
We cannot compare the two so easily, but in one respect when I am rebelliously disobedient against my parent I am no long the child they raised.
God does not kick us out for anything we did, but if we want to go over to satan and be his slave child God allows us to do it, like the Father did with the prodigal son.

Sure, but I wasn't talking about getting involved in the occult or Satanism.

In any case, Jesus promises to never "cast out" anyone who comes to Him.(John 6:37)

Matthew 7:7-11

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