capitalism and christianity

Hank77

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Captalism encourages such devious strategy that's why it is not compatible with Christianity.
Capitalism is not the problem, it is people that are the problem.
So I don't agree that Capitalism is not compatible with Christianity.
What do you see in Proverbs 31? Capitalism, Socialism, Communism?
 
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Albion

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This is why the American capitalists outsource jobs if possible.

To countries with weak labor laws to save money in human resources / manufacturing.

Because the laws that protect American workers have made it "too expensive" to run a business in USA.

Captalism encourages such devious strategy that's why it is not compatible with Christianity.
But Capitalism does not require those manufacturers to outsource their jobs and, as we know, many do not do so.

In fact, a lot of the companies that have chosen to outsource their production have done so mainly because of Socialistic tax policies at home, so it is hardly inherent in Capitalism for this which you disapprove of to be occurring.
 
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Albion

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I own a small tech business serving clients in USA and Europe and I live in a third world country.

Many western countries outsource their jobs here to be competitive.

Because the 3rd world gov't doesn't protect their citizens enough from exploitation, which makes it far cheaper for American or European companies to do business here.

This is why I have a pretty grim view of Capitalism. The money is tainted.

As Jesus said, if you love money, you hate God. Money is not one of God's blessings (find this surprising, read 1 John 2:15-17). Because the very nature of money is the opposite of God, it's about the symbol of evil.
I think your story shows us that you have misdirected your animosity. Christianity has nothing to do with your complaints, one way or the other.
 
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Eryk

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Capitalism is not the problem, it is people that are the problem.
I agree. I just want corporations to be socially responsible. Worker safety, environmental stewardship, and a decent standard of living for employees.

It takes government to make these things happen. A corporation exists to maximize shareholder value, and that's all it's designed to do. We the people have to make corporations act like good citizens.
 
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Hank77

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It takes government to make these things happen. A corporation exists to maximize shareholder value, and that's all it's designed to do. We the people have to make corporations act like good citizens.
Agree.
It is government that allowed the formation of the legal entity called a corporation to begin with. Therefore, what they do is the government's responsibility to keep them honest. History shows that most of them won't do it themselves. Not speaking here of just corps. but individual owners as well.

On the other hand corporations allow wealth to be distributed to a greater number of people (shareholders) that are not laboring for the company, rather than a sole proprietor or a simple partnership. Of coarse this is a benefit to the originators of the company for raising capital to expand and to increase wealth.
 
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scottmcc2

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Take the opportunity you have and make the most of it. Matthew 25:14-20 Using the talents you have to make more. Our purpose is to help those in need, by sharing what we have we have with others. Ephesians 4:28

God gives us the power to make wealth. Deuteronomy 8:18 Let us use it to help others.
 
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Brian Mcnamee

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As a serial business owner I have often wondered that, but I came to the conclusion that private enterprise is the only net wealth generator creates the vast majority of jobs, and funds via taxes all the other jobs and social programs.

So in itself it is not bad. Wealth is neither good nor evil it depends how it is used. Bill Gates mission to use his wealth to give all on the planet clean water is beneficial, and to spend on such programmes you first need to earn.

The alternatives of communism and socialism spending vast amounts of borrowed or printed money on social spending have done nothing but harm, bubbles of euphoria burst very quickly and end as Cuba, Venezuela, Greece, or Detroit as recent examples. God forbid Corbyn turns Britain into Venezuela but that is his plan.

Capitalism is a great leveller, despite being Seen as fuelling inequality, The living standards of hundreds of millions of new middle class ordinary Chinese have skyrocketed, by opening to capitalism, Sadly It has hurt richer nations by funnelling wealth to lower cost areas. Those who consider that trickle down has failed should notice that poverty has digital TVs and smartphones now, where even my generation of middle class struggled to make ends meet, never eat out, few had cars and Other luxuries,

I will say this. I think false prosperity fuelled by borrowing is evil.
And yet they still keep printing dollars and euros, and urging all to lend. It cannot end well.
As a serial business owner I have often wondered that, but I came to the conclusion that private enterprise is the only net wealth generator creates the vast majority of jobs, and funds via taxes all the other jobs and social programs.

So in itself it is not bad. Wealth is neither good nor evil it depends how it is used. Bill Gates mission to use his wealth to give all on the planet clean water is beneficial, and to spend on such programmes you first need to earn.

The alternatives of communism and socialism spending vast amounts of borrowed or printed money on social spending have done nothing but harm, bubbles of euphoria burst very quickly and end as Cuba, Venezuela, Greece, or Detroit as recent examples. God forbid Corbyn turns Britain into Venezuela but that is his plan.

Capitalism is a great leveller, despite being Seen as fuelling inequality, The living standards of hundreds of millions of new middle class ordinary Chinese have skyrocketed, by opening to capitalism, Sadly It has hurt richer nations by funnelling wealth to lower cost areas. Those who consider that trickle down has failed should notice that poverty has digital TVs and smartphones now, where even my generation of middle class struggled to make ends meet, never eat out, few had cars and Other luxuries,

I will say this. I think false prosperity fuelled by borrowing is evil.
And yet they still keep printing dollars and euros, and urging all to lend. It cannot end well.
Your last sentence is hitting the nail on the head. Capitalism is the form of economic system where free enterprise and competition are good. If you look back over 100 years say to turn of the century and you can go into an old garage and find tools made in America from hundreds of manufacturers. Today the US has just a few tool companies left and most of the products in our garage are made in China. The difference between then and now is the creation of corporations and private central banks. The corporations do not want free enterprise as Rockerfeller once said competition is a sin. So what we have now are multinational corporate cartels. The good of working hard and employing others to take wealth and create more wealth is now lost as the big investors make more money speculating say by buying oil futures at 60 then selling them for 70. The profits generated this way create higher prices and no wealth. The sad thing is that the large capitalist have funded the communist. The US has become less free and almost socialist in its model while the soviets have opened up to more trade and are more corporate in their capitalism. The statement you made about debt and that it cannot last is the key crossroads we are approaching. The only way the economy grows is by taking on larger debts at an ever faster rate. We are in the end game of the ponzi scheme created by Keynsian economics. The resulting crash will be global and it will create a chaos unimaginable. The battle for mind share in this arena will determine who and what is rebuilt after the crash. I suspect that the NWO one world government and financial system will be put in place. The end of the nation state and the division of the world into 10 economic sectors is coming.

A christian can be a good christian under either system but only one rewards hard work and gives you the freedom to determine what to do with what it yours. The modern system is defined as capitalism but it is not and is in bed with the central banks and the global planners.

Daniel 8

“And in the latter time of their kingdom,
When the transgressors have reached their fullness,
A king shall arise,
Having fierce features,
Who understands sinister schemes.
24 His power shall be mighty, but not by his own power;
He shall destroy fearfully,
And shall prosper and thrive;
He shall destroy the mighty, and also the holy people.
25 “Through his cunning
He shall cause deceit to prosper under his rule;[fn]
And he shall exalt himself in his heart.
He shall destroy many in their prosperity.
He shall even rise against the Prince of princes;
But he shall be broken without human means.[fn]
26 “And the vision of the evenings and mornings
Which was told is true;
Therefore seal up the vision,
For it refers to many days in the future.

rev 6

3 When He opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature saying, “Come and see.”[fn] 4 Another horse, fiery red, went out. And it was granted to the one who sat on it to take peace from the earth, and that people should kill one another; and there was given to him a great sword.
5 When He opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, “Come and see.” So I looked, and behold, a black horse, and he who sat on it had a pair of scales in his hand. 6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four living creatures saying, “A quart[fn] of wheat for a denarius,( a denarius is a days wage) and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not harm the oil and the wine.”

psalm 2
1 Why do the nations rage,
And the people plot a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves,
And the rulers take counsel together,
Against the LORD and against His Anointed, saying,
3 “Let us break Their bonds in pieces
And cast away Their cords from us.”
4 He who sits in the heavens shall laugh;
The Lord shall hold them in derision.
5 Then He shall speak to them in His wrath,
And distress them in His deep displeasure:
6 “Yet I have set My King
On My holy hill of Zion.”
7 “I will declare the decree:
The LORD has said to Me,
‘You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.
8 Ask of Me, and I will give You
The nations for Your inheritance,
And the ends of the earth for Your possession.
9 You shall break[fn] them with a rod of iron;
You shall dash them to pieces like a potter’s vessel.’ ”
 
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Hank77

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I have never agreed with the idea that one person (or business) owes another person a living.
You don't think that if someone works for you that you have the responsibility to pay them enough that they can live themselves?
 
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Symph

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I don't even think MONEY and christianity are compatible. That's not to say that anyone in the capitalist system who's a christian is in sin until they get out, the mess satan has made of this world is so great that everyone has to make small steps toward getting out of it. I actually quit my job a month ago because the holy spirit told me to, it was scary but I trusted him to take care of us as long as I was sharing his word and doing his work and we've seen it happen miraculously, this shows me that all that stuff about giving away your money, not working for material things, he really does mean it. But I couldn't have had that kind of faith until a month ago, seriously not even 2 months ago would I have, I had to see him prove his faithfulness over and over first.

So maybe the END GOAL of every christian should be to get out of the capitalist system, but I don't think we should feel bad if we're stuck there right now, just do what you can and keep growing in faith. But yeah I mean if you've read Josephus apparently God intended everyone to consider everything, EVERYTHING HIS, not ours in any way, and thus sharing wasn't even "I'm sharing what's mine with you" it wasn't ours to share, God shared it with all. So money shouldn't exist, ownership of property shouldn't exist, if we were in the garden like we should be, everyone would just give everything to everyone and no one would consider anything their's to begin with. But we got a LONG way to go before we're there, let's see if we can just stop fighting first lol

EDIT: I didn't explain my last point, Josephus is a historian of the jews, and he says that the whole "no ownership" thing was how we saw it UNTIL Cain decided to create a bartering system and the "ownership of land" so according to him, money, property, ownership, started with Cain, and... that guy wasn't too good a dude...
 
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TheSeabass

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Then could I say that slave labor is fine with you?
No, each person owes himself/herself a living. No one owes another person a living.

A person gets paid for the job they do, not what they think they should make and pay is to be commensurate with the knowledge and skills required to do the job.

If I recall correctly, the Supreme Court many, many years ago said the gov't had no business setting arbitrary wages, that the wage is to be negotiated between employer and potential employee.
 
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Albion

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I don't even think MONEY and christianity are compatible. That's not to say that anyone in the capitalist system who's a christian is in sin until they get out, the mess satan has made of this world is so great that everyone has to make small steps toward getting out of it. I actually quit my job a month ago because the holy spirit told me to, it was scary but I trusted him to take care of us....
,
Are you, therefore, IN or OUT of the Capitalist system? If you say OUT, it's because you are supposedly not participating in it by working for a privately-owned company, buying groceries not produced on a state farm, and using equipment, furniture, appliances, automobiles, etc. built in a non-governmental factory.

No one's "stuck" IN it, and if this is supposed to be such a highly moral matter, I would expect anyone who thinks Capitalism to be wrong or unchristian to be OUT in fact as well as in the talking.
 
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Hank77

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No, each person owes himself/herself a living. No one owes another person a living.
The employer owes his workers a fair wage so that he does not live in the street, without food, clothing, and shelter.
Just as a husband owes the same to his wife. Torah says that if a man denies his wife these things she can leave him because he has the means but will not give them to her and chooses to give them to another.
If I recall correctly, the Supreme Court many, many years ago said the gov't had no business setting arbitrary wages, that the wage is to be negotiated between employer and potential employee.
This thread is not about what the SCOTUS says but about Christian principles.
I agree that negotiation should happen between the employer and employee. Should the employer not pay a fair wage because the employee is desperate?

Deu 24:14 Thou shalt not oppress an hired servant that is poor and needy, whether he be of thy brethren, or of thy strangers that are in thy land within thy gates:
Deu 24:15 At his day thou shalt give him his hire, neither shall the sun go down upon it; for he is poor, and setteth his heart upon it: lest he cry against thee unto the LORD, and it be sin unto thee.

Why does the laborer have his heart set on receiving his wage, because he needs it to be able to take care of himself and his family.
What is "give him his hire" if it is not a fair wage. If the wage won't sustain him will he still cry out to the Lord? If the employer can pay a fair wage but chooses not to, how will God judge his oppression of a hired laborer?
 
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YCGP

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Take the opportunity you have and make the most of it. Matthew 25:14-20 Using the talents you have to make more. Our purpose is to help those in need, by sharing what we have we have with others. Ephesians 4:28

God gives us the power to make wealth. Deuteronomy 8:18 Let us use it to help others.

Why does God encourage us to become wealthy if it is so hard for a rich man to get into heaven?
 
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YCGP

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When I saw this post I thought it would be about an individual capitalizing. What I mean is, garnering attention when certain things are said, so that that individual is associated with the content of the conversation, i.e. money, success, a nice house, a nice office and a good job.

I had a vision a few weeks ago and I was told to capitalize. Still, I wonder if it is truly a good thing, as it seems to require a lot of focus on oneself (the opposite of humility) and it seems a little phony, too.

What do you think?
 
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Sabertooth

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Why does God encourage us to become wealthy if it is so hard for a rich man to get into heaven?
Just because one can earn a lot of money doesn't mean they must keep a lot of money.

Also (while true), "rich" is a subjective term. If I have $2K in the bank, should I be worried? At what point does one become too rich to enter into heaven?
 
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pescador

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Why does God encourage us to become wealthy if it is so hard for a rich man to get into heaven?

Where does it say that God encourages us to become wealthy? There are many places where the Bible says just the opposite, such as "Jesus said to his disciples, “I tell you the truth, it will be hard for a rich person to enter the kingdom of heaven!" (Matthew 19:23) and other similar pronouncements.
 
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nonaeroterraqueous

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Just as a husband owes the same to his wife. Torah says that if a man denies his wife these things she can leave him....

By the same token, you can also leave your employer if you don't like the wages.

Should the employer not pay a fair wage because the employee is desperate?

The employer doesn't even have to hire the employee in the first place. He doesn't have to go into business at all.

Deu 24:15 At his day thou shalt give him his hire, neither shall the sun go down upon it; for he is poor, and setteth his heart upon it: lest he cry against thee unto the LORD, and it be sin unto thee.

In other words, don't promise one set of wages to a trusting worker and then fail to pay him after he's done his work. It says nothing about how to come to an agreement beforehand on what the wages will be.

If the wage won't sustain him will he still cry out to the Lord?

He should have considered that before he agreed to do the work, or go find some other employer.

If the employer can pay a fair wage but chooses not to, how will God judge his oppression of a hired laborer?

I like to think that God would slap the laborer and give him a stern lecture against agreeing to work for a skinflint.
 
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