How to undo the Christian deception?

Open Heart said:

1. The verses from the OT are to Children of Israel, and I do not read them as symbolic the way you do. Ephraim is actually Ephraim, not Gentiles.

2. The "Lost Sheep of Israel" refers to sinful Jews. In his entire time on earth, Jesus spoke to a gazillion Jews, but you can count on one hand the number of gentiles he spoke to. He also during his life commanded his disciples to STAY AWAY from Gentiles and Samaritans -- and we KNOW that Samaritans are descendants of the 10 lost tribes.

3. Regarding Romans 11, I noticed that you said grafted INTO Israel. This is not accurate. Gentile believers are grafted ONTO Israel. IOW they benefit from the superior root system, but they do not become a regular olive tree--they remain wild. A graft remains what it was before the graft. For example, if you graft a peach branch onto plum roots, you will still have a peach tree; you will simply have better peaches because plum roots have a better system.

4. Regarding Galatians 3:28: Jews and Gentiles both receive the Gospel and are equal before God, just as men and women are. But if you look around, we still have men and women, and they are different. In the same respect, we still have Jews and Gentiles.

If you want to keep Torah, GREAT!!!! More power to ya. I think you'll be blessed. But are all Gentiles Ephraim? Nope. The Two House form of Messianism is the ultimate Replacement Theology.

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This message will respond to yours, in order. So, I figured I’d type this little prologue so it’d avoid all confusion.

Well, first off you’re absolutely right Open Heart, absolutely right. They are to the children of the house of Israel. But, if you haven’t noticed it yet, the whole book, is to the children of Israel. As Jesus, our Savior has even said himself Matthew 15:24, he ONLY came to the lost sheep of Israel. That’s it. He ONLY came, to save those that belong to Israel.

As far as Ephraim being only Ephraim, if you read the book of Hosea, first off, that’s a prophetic message. He was to warn his people, but he also had a message for far off in the future. This can be proven in chapter 2, in the following verse. Hosea 2:23, if it was just to Ephraim, that verse makes no sense. Point blank, makes no sense.

Then, in chapter 3, God tells him to buy back his wife who is playing the harlot, just as he will do in the future with the children of Israel. Then, God says (through Hosea):

4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim:

5 Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the Lord their God, and David their king; and shall fear the Lord and his goodness in the latter days.

I know that it says “David, their king;” but, they never returned during the reign of king David. Nor anywhere else in the bible did they return. So, either God isn’t actually as able as the bible tells, or it’s still supposed to happen. Now I urge you, not to just scan over the next few verses I’ll share with you.



In chapter 6 of Hosea, - Hosea 6:6 - Why is this verse important? Because, Jesus spoke on this, while he ate with sinners of all types. The jews of the day were confused and in uproar that he did such a thing, but he quoted this verse. Why? Because, he was called to save the lost sheep of the house of Israel. If you think he came only to talk to sinning jews for one, you’re greatly diminishing the strength and beauty of his message, and for two why didn’t the Pharisees (jews so guilty of sin, Jesus warned against being like them) receive the message? Because, the lost sheep of the house of Israel, is anyone that has eyes to see and ears to hear. It’s anyone that is helpless and broken enough that they can accept the message with an open and honest heart. Those that desire to stop leaning on their own understanding, and to honestly try to place their entire trust in God. It’s those with a desire to have faith, not in themselves, but in God. Which is why Jesus is called, not just for jews, but also for gentiles. But as Paul says, in Jesus, there is no greek, nor jew, nor gentile. Meaning, since the Jews, that were lost but now through Christ are saved, are Israel, so too are the gentiles. Because Through Christ, there is no difference. There is only one. That one, is Israel.

10 I have seen an horrible thing in the house of Israel: there is the whoredom of Ephraim, Israel is defiled.

Then, in chapter 7:

11 Ephraim also is like a silly dove without heart: they call to Egypt, they go to Assyria.

12 When they shall go, I will spread my net upon them; I will bring them down as the fowls of the heaven; I will chastise them, as their congregation hath heard.

13 Woe unto them! for they have fled from me: destruction unto them! because they have transgressed against me: though I have redeemed them, yet they have spoken lies against me.


“though I have redeemed them,” this is God speaking about what he had even back then, already done through Christ.


Then in chapter 8:

8 Israel is swallowed up: now shall they be among the Gentiles as a vessel wherein is no pleasure.

9 For they are gone up to Assyria, a wild ass alone by himself: Ephraim hath hired lovers.

10 Yea, though they have hired among the nations, now will I gather them, and they shall sorrow a little for the burden of the king of princes.

11 Because Ephraim hath made many altars to sin, altars shall be unto him to sin.

12 I have written to him the great things of my law, but they were counted as a strange thing.



That’s exactly how the law is to us today, it’s a strange thing. People demonize it. The second you talk of it, they reject it and get angry, and quote verses completely out of context (to not fault of their own) to justify their flesh and their carnal mind’s desires.

That was why I linked Galatians 3:29, because it says, we are heirs according to the promise of Abraham. What does this mean? Well, put it this way, that promise… was with, and for, ... Israel.

Open Heart said:

1. The verses from the OT are to Children of Israel, and I do not read them as symbolic the way you do. Ephraim is actually Ephraim, not Gentiles.

2. The "Lost Sheep of Israel" refers to sinful Jews. In his entire time on earth, Jesus spoke to a gazillion Jews, but you can count on one hand the number of gentiles he spoke to. He also during his life commanded his disciples to STAY AWAY from Gentiles and Samaritans -- and we KNOW that Samaritans are descendants of the 10 lost tribes.

3. Regarding Romans 11, I noticed that you said grafted INTO Israel. This is not accurate. Gentile believers are grafted ONTO Israel. IOW they benefit from the superior root system, but they do not become a regular olive tree--they remain wild. A graft remains what it was before the graft. For example, if you graft a peach branch onto plum roots, you will still have a peach tree; you will simply have better peaches because plum roots have a better system.

4. Regarding Galatians 3:28: Jews and Gentiles both receive the Gospel and are equal before God, just as men and women are. But if you look around, we still have men and women, and they are different. In the same respect, we still have Jews and Gentiles.

If you want to keep Torah, GREAT!!!! More power to ya. I think you'll be blessed. But are all Gentiles Ephraim? Nope. The Two House form of Messianism is the ultimate Replacement Theology.

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I urge you not to scan. If you get to this message and you merely scanned my first message, please, I urge you. Read my message carefully. I'm not trying to be offensive, but every time you've responded, you've responded in a way that makes it obvious that you missed what I was getting at. I know you are passionate, it's a beautiful thing, truly it is, but please, read it carefully! Besides, after you read it carefully, you'll have more ammo to defend your argument if you get to the end of it and still don't see what I'm trying to show you. See, it's not just beneficial to me! No, I don't want to go over all the times it's been obvious that you weren't reading. I want to stay on this topic, because it's the most important topic that we could possibly talk about on this site. It's literally the point of this site. I didn't mean any offense in typing this, I just went through a lot of trouble in that last message and don't want to go off on any needless tangents. I do that enough already. #ADHDLifeyo <3 Much love brother.

Open Heart said:

1. The verses from the OT are to Children of Israel, and I do not read them as symbolic the way you do. Ephraim is actually Ephraim, not Gentiles.

2. The "Lost Sheep of Israel" refers to sinful Jews. In his entire time on earth, Jesus spoke to a gazillion Jews, but you can count on one hand the number of gentiles he spoke to. He also during his life commanded his disciples to STAY AWAY from Gentiles and Samaritans -- and we KNOW that Samaritans are descendants of the 10 lost tribes.

3. Regarding Romans 11, I noticed that you said grafted INTO Israel. This is not accurate. Gentile believers are grafted ONTO Israel. IOW they benefit from the superior root system, but they do not become a regular olive tree--they remain wild. A graft remains what it was before the graft. For example, if you graft a peach branch onto plum roots, you will still have a peach tree; you will simply have better peaches because plum roots have a better system.

4. Regarding Galatians 3:28: Jews and Gentiles both receive the Gospel and are equal before God, just as men and women are. But if you look around, we still have men and women, and they are different. In the same respect, we still have Jews and Gentiles.

If you want to keep Torah, GREAT!!!! More power to ya. I think you'll be blessed. But are all Gentiles Ephraim? Nope. The Two House form of Messianism is the ultimate Replacement Theology.

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Now, for the grafting in (which I in no means was saying that we replace Israel, or anything like that, considering the bible says no such thing. I'll explain though, but understand that what I am saying is in no way a replacement theology. Nothing has been or is being replaced) :

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:


Also, right after that in the following verses:


17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:


21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.


I understand what you mean brother, but your analogy is a bit off (no offense intended). It’s not the whole tree that is grafted, but merely branches as 17-18 show. The root, is Christ, which from your example I see you gathered. We, being the wild olive branch, were (by grace) grafted into the good olive tree (Israel)


24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.


26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:


I’m not stating that this in any shape or form “replaces” Israel. We never were meant to replace them. We were just given the opportunity to become one with them through faith. Through the promises of Abraham. Not that we replace them, but we join them. And there are no two, but one, in Christ. That one, is the house of Israel. Our wild tree, is that of the gentiles, but the good tree, truly, is Israel. Which, by faith, and eternally immeasurable grace, we are grafted into. Preaching that there are gentiles and Israel to be saved, does away with a lot of scripture and makes it not make sense. Otherwise, verses like Galatians 3:28, Romans 15:16, 1 Peter 3:8, Acts 2:46, Acts 4:32 make no sense. Because we believe we are to be two different ways. Remember, Paul was a jew, and he was writing to gentile churches. He taught them how to be.

Considering we are saved through the promise of Abraham (which pertained specifically to Israel) we are to obey the law, for a sign of salvation, not to earn it. As the circumcision was to Abraham. Not the reason, or the currency of his salvation, but the receipt (modernized for example sake). Plus, look at this verse in the original greek text. Matthew 7:21-23. Look that up in the original greek (just type Matthew 7 strongs - strongs is a source that takes the original greek writings that the kjv and other bibles were originally translated from) the word where Jesus says, "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

The original word for "iniquity" it's definition, means lawlessness. The greek word is anomia. Which means lawlessness, or one without law, or lawlessness for two reasons: 1 - a desire not to obey it, or 2 - an ignorance to it. He will say depart from me, because they confessed him with their mouths, but their hearts were far from him. The reason he then gives, is that they were lawless. Depart from me, ye that work lawlessness... The law was for Israel... Do you see what I'm getting at? Do you see why I'm pushing this? It's worth it. It's your soul. It might not be something that you want to accept, but it's important. Our society is entirely against this. This is a deception, that runs so deep, that people must know of it. This makes the bible breathe in such a way that is absolute and utter synchronicity. No contradictions, literally, anywhere. Period. With the way I used to believe, and had been raised to believe, there were contradictions EVERYWHERE. The fix for them? Different people saw it differently. As a result, we have thousands upon thousands of different doctrines. This, forces us, through the authority and truth of scripture, to be one in heart and mind. There is no room nor reason for personal interpretations, it's all written out for us, it's finished. The author, and finisher of our faith, has finished it. Much love brother.

So, a brother told me that you in fact - Open Heart - are a sister... So yeah, my apologies for calling you brother like 10 times in those preceding messages >.<

Open Heart said:

Hi there!

I read you post carefully, and I do have serious problems with it.

First, a few minor corrections.
1. I'm your sister.
2. I'm a Jewish believer. It puts me in an interesting place because it makes me part of both Israel and the Church -- for me, Rabbinical Jews are "us" and not "them."

Here is my big problem. You want to say that believers in Christ become Israel. I have two points.

1. None of the verses from Romans 11 back this up. The grafting analogy certainly doesn't support your point, as I showed in my last post. Let me put it a different way. The tree in the grafting analogy is the Oracle of God. In the OT, that Oracle was Israel. Now that Oracle is the Church. But nothing in the metaphor indicates that the Church is Israel. Nor do any of the other verses you quoted.

2. My problem with you trying to make the Church into Israel is this: The objective of the Great Commission is essentially to try to make every human being in the world a believer in Christ, aka a member of the Church. By your definition that would make everyone in the world Israel. So Israel as a people set apart would CEASE TO EXIST. It's genocide. It is dangerous to those of us who are actually Jews.

Now let's deal with some of the other verse that you just kind of threw out. Please in the future, if you reference a verse, quote it, as it's a lot of work to look them all up, and I won't continue to do that.

Galatians 3:28 "In Christ there is no Jew nor Greek" means that everyone receives the Gospel. It doesn't mean that there aren't Jews and Gentiles in real life, aka differences between us, just as it doesn't mean that there aren't actually men and women.

Romans 15:16 Not sure what this has to do with the conversation.

1 Peter 3:8 Not sure what this has to do with the conversation

Acts 2:46, 4:32 Not sure what this has to do with the conversation

Here is my argument right back at you. Acts 15 and 1 Corinthians 7:18. Circumcision is the sign of Israel's covenant. To be circumcised means to take on the 613 laws given at Sinai.

The Council of Jerusalem begins with the Judaizers insisting on Gentile believers converting to Judaism. "5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.” " Paul and Barnabas tell of the work they are doing among the Gentiles. Peter ends the debate with his ruling. James, as the host bishop, reiterates what Peter said, and has the council draw up the letter to the Gentile churches. James states, "19 “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God." The Church will not require Gentiles to become circumcised and observe Mosaic law. Rather, it will require them to observe only the few laws required of Righteous Gentiles, as Righteous Gentiles are taught in the Synagogues. By default, the Council leaves in place the idea that Jewish believers should continue observing Torah. Thus we have a bilateral Law.

YEARS later, In Acts 21:25, James is talking to Paul, and he REPEATS to Paul that Gentiles are only to be Righteous Gentiles, even though the Jews there in Jerusalem were "zealous for Torah" (v. 21).

Paul also teaches this bilateral Law. In 1 Corinthians 7:18 he writes, "Was a man already circumcised when he was called? He should not become uncircumcised. Was a man uncircumcised when he was called? He should not be circumcised." So Jews are to remain observant of Mosaic Law, and Gentiles (if you read the rules Paul gives Gentiles other places throughout his epistles) are to be Righteous Gentiles.

So we have the idea of bilateral Law: Mosaic Law for Israel, which is set apart, and universal Law for Gentiles (what is sometimes called Noahide Laws, or Natural Law, depending on the tradition you are coming out of). It makes sense. LONG BEFORE Mosaic Law even came into existence, there was still Law. What Law was that? After all, Cain was punished for murder. Sodom was punished for rape and homosexuality. So if not Mosaic Law for those Gentiles, then obviously there was some other Law for them.

Now we are ready to deal with your point on Iniquity. I absolutely agree that it means lawlessness. But which law? When you read Matthew 7:21-23, you need to apply it to whatever Law God requires you to follow. If you are a Gentile, it refers to universal law, not Mosaic Law.

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Why were you looking them up? They should just pop right up since the site links them if you mouse over them haha. You must be on a phone? I’ll type them from now on haha. Sorry.

I’ll respond in order so.

1. The good olive tree, that represents those which were grafted out, truly was Israel. Does this mean that ALL of Israel has been grafted out? Absolutely not. Absolutely not. (Had to say it again) What this means, is that some of them were, but not all of them. As far as it being the church, Jesus never once spoke of the church. Nor do any of the apostles. Jesus himself in Matthew 15:24, says “24 - But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” Here he literally says that he is only sent to Israel. So, if you accept Him as your savior, you’re Israel. Which, since you’re Jewish, you already were. You just didn’t let him become a stumbling block to you.
   1. 18 - Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou nearestnot the root, but the root thee. (basically saying to the gentiles you’re not so righteous that you’re being saved, it’s by grace that Christ’s sacrifice was gifted to cover over your sins) 19 - Thou wilt say then, the branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. (basically saying that as a gentile don’t boast to those that either were grafted out, or those still in that are natural.) 20 - Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, thou standest by faith. Be not high-minded, but fear: (it’s saying why part of Israel was grafted out. And also telling us that the only reason we’ve been grafted in, was because of faith, therefore we shouldn’t be high-minded, and we should be afraid because of what the next verse says) 21 - For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. (saying that part of Israel was grafted out and punished, so be careful that you don’t go down the same path)
   2. The next set of verses I used shows what you said it did not. 25 - For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. (Paul tells us that ignorance of this, and the severity of knowing it’s by faith results in us being humble. Fore, if we deceive ourselves thinking we’re wise in our own ways, which is what happened to Israel, we’ll be grafted out just as they were - partially)
2. As far as your second point goes. I’m not saying that every person in the world is to be considered Israel. As happened to Paul and all other disciples, and to us today as we spread the message - Not all will accept it. And even all who accept it, won’t truly believe. As Romans 2:28-29 says For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. That is literally what Jesus was to the world. The gift of salvation through faith. Believing in him gives us the opportunity to be grafted into Israel. But, only if we don’t JUST confess it with our lips, while our hearts are far from him (not attempting to follow the Torah)
   1. In reference to the Galatians 3:28, I never meant that it did away with Jews and Gentiles. No. I meant, that Jews, belong to Israel. Gentiles, don’t. But in Christ, they are one. They are to observe the same laws as a sign of their salvation, and the reason for their salvation (jew and gentile alike) is Christ.

1 Peter 3:8 - Why I linked that, was because, Israel is supposed to obey the law (before Christ, and after) which means, that since gentiles and jews, were supposed to be of like mind…that would make no sense. As for Acts 2:46 and the other one in Acts, I honestly don’t know what or why I linked those haha. I wrote it at like 2 in the morning, and most likely meant other verses and just typed them incorrectly.
As for acts 15, the first verse, “And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.” “Except” They came down NOT teaching Christ+the law, they came down teaching JUST the law. That’s the problem Paul had with them.
Then in Acts 15:8-9 “8 And God which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the HolyGhost, even as unto us. 9 And put no difference between us and them purifying their hearts by faith.”
The circumcision was how you were to be essentially be initiated in. At the beginning of anything in the OT where God says if your servant wants to join into these feasts, or observe this or that thing, they have to be circumcised. But, Christ did away with that. Whether you accept Christ when you’re circumcised, or uncircumcised, it doesn’t matter. The only thing that matters is that you place your faith in Christ, in God, and not in yourself, or man’s ways. The freedom Christ gives us, is that we aren’t slaves to the law. This doesn’t mean we we make the law null by our faith, we still observe it. But we don’t live or die by it. We live, because of Christ, and our reward is that we get to serve God. That we aren’t slaves to sin, but to righteousness. That our hearts don’t desire that which is wicked, but that which is just.
I’m not saying we are to keep the whole of the law. We are covered in the blood of Jesus. Jesus was so pure, he never needed to sacrifice an animal to cover over his sins. We have that same righteousness. We don’t need to sacrifice, and we don’t need to be circumcised. Nor can we stone to death, because it takes a trial, and the resources for said trial we (being in dispersion) simply do not have.
God only has one law, his law does not change, as he does not change. Genesis 26:5 “Because that Abraham obeyed my voice and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.”
God’s law does not change. It never has, and never will. Jesus is the word of God made flesh. He was with God in the beginning, and is the beginning and the end. The Noahide laws are not scriptural. They are BASED on scripture, but are not scriptural. God’s law does not change, because God does not change. If something displeases God yesterday, it will today, and tomorrow. Otherwise, God changes. Which, he shows us in scripture that he clearly does not.

Open Heart said:

"David" refers to the Messiah. In the Messianic Age, those descended from "Ephraim" (which has been used as a metaphor to refer to the 10 tribes) will be regathered to the Promised Land. We have begun to see this prophecy fulfilled in the modern state of Israel.

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I definitely agree that it's referring to the Messiah. That was my point. The verse said David their king, so if you were going to point that out, I was trying to knock that possibility down real quick.

However, the modern state of Israel, has nothing to do with the bible. If you research into it, the people behind the funding of the modern Israel, are not... good news to say the least. Whether it's the "star of David" or anything else they've put up for Israel, it's NOT anything having to do with the bible. I do believe there are good Israelites there, for sure. But those financially responsible (Rothschilds) are nothing short of the synagogue of satan as Jesus says in Revelations 2:9

"I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan." Especially when you look into the things they've done to all of the countries they've been in (financially backed BOTH sides of all wars in the last few centuries - maybe even more, but I've only looked into the recent wars and battles)

The star of David, biblically has nothing to do with David. In fact, Acts 7:43 -

"Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon."

Then, google the "star of Remphan" that this verse refers to.

The pharisees were given the message too. They stood in the crowds as well. Jesus dined in their homes. Some received him. Others did not, as was the case with all he came to.

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That was my point in stating that.

And where were these crowds of Gentiles that Jesus spoke to? No, you are quite mistaken. It was only after the ascension that the Apostles went to the Gentiles. Jesus himself did not go to them.

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He came first to the jews, then to the gentiles. But he was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. He still came to the gentiles, as Acts 10 shows. But, as God says in many ways and many times, when he does something, he will do it first to the jews, and then the gentiles.

As you've pointed out, just as Hosea remained faithful to his prostitute wife, so God remained faithful to idolatrous Israel. Yes, he disciplined Israel. But he remains faithful. They are still his people.

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I never said that he wasn't going to remain faithful to the jews. At all. I've explained that several times in several different ways.

It's referring to the Exodus.

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Not so. It's talking of the Modern state of Ephraim. (I don't think we'll ever agree on this topic, I'm sorry)

I just think it is sooooo strange that you apply these verses to yourself. I see absolutely no reason for it. Criminals feel that way about the law too, but criminals are not Ephraim.

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I'm not saying that criminals are Ephraim. I'm saying, that today, in recent years. That since God in several ways, through several verses in several different books, said that the punishment for Ephraim and Israel, would be for him to sift them amongst the gentiles, and that they would forget his law, and his name, and the law would seem strange to them. Until that is, the curse was lifted. There have been scholars that have added up the total amount of years that the curse was supposed to be in place for, and it should've ended (roughly) back around 2009. Since around that time, people have started making this connection, and it's a connection that virtually no one could make before. The tree that Israel was grafted out of, they were grafted out of it because their root wasn't Christ. The good olive tree however, it's root IS Christ. What's my point? The natural jews, and the spiritual jews that came after were grafted into the good olive tree. This refers to all of Israel that came before Christ as well, that placed their faith in God for salvation - apart from their signs of salvation through their works. Abraham, Moses, Isaac, Jacob, David, etc, etc.

The Jews are given many promises. The main one is the promised land. Of all these promises, one is spiritual, that a descendant of Abraham would come to bless the world. We interpret this as being the Messiah, the Savior, who died for our sins (although Abraham would not have known this). Since believers are the spiritual children of Abraham, we inherit this spiritual promise. But we do not inherit any of the other promises.

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I can agree. But what did that do? Allow me to explain what I mean. Christ is the root of the good olive tree, and that olive tree refers to Israel. The only ones to be saved ARE Israel. There is no mention of gentiles being saved in revelations. Only Israel.
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Open Heart said:

Matthew 16:18 on this rock I will build my church

IOW, Israel in the present he had Israel to minister to. IN the future he would also have the Church.

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The name Peter, means rock. He was talking to Peter, not Israel. Well, I mean, in a way he was talking to Israel, because Peter is part of Israel, and so was the crowd, but the rock on which he was to build his church, was referring to Peter because of his faith.

Open Heart said:

But that IS the goal of the Church, to preach the gospel to every living creature, to try to save everyone. IOW, the goal of the Church is to extinguish the Jewish people, IF it believes that the Church is Israel.

Exactly. That is the goal, but "to try to save everyone" is the best way it can be summarized. The reason we are to preach to every living creature, is because you aren't to judge who the message is for, and who it isn't for. Only God can discern that. So, no matter who, what, when or why, you preach it. In hopes that you can save at least one.

Now it appears you have reconsidered, or perhaps I just didn't understand you in the first place. It appears you are saying that Gentile believers are NOT ISRAEL. Then it follows there is no reason for them to obey laws given only to Israel.

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No, I didn't reconsider, you just misunderstood, but it's cool it happens. You also did in this message I'm responding to, but it's cool. I'll elaborate. Okay, so, what I meant was what the bible says. It never says gentiles replace Israel. No.

It says that we are to be grafted into, and JOIN Israel. Not replace it. There is no replacement. Never says that in the bible. But, Jesus will say, depart from me, workers of iniquity. And that word in the greek "iniquity" is "anomia" meaning, one without law, lawlessness, and it gives to reasons for the lawlessness. Either a desire to disobey, or ignorance of the law. Jesus says this to ALL. Not just Israel. Not only that, but here in Galatians

Galatians 4:8-11
8Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods. 9But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? 10Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. 11I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

In verse 8, he says, "when ye knew not God" because he was writing to gentiles, that didn't know God prior to his teaching them.

In verse 9, he tells them, now that you've been made aware of God and him of you, why would you go back to your old ways (pagan, devil worshipping - because worshipping anything and anyone other than God is that of the devil) - therefore enslaving yourselves under the curse of the law.

God's law, is universal, it's not just the jews that get punished by it. Or else all men that weren't jews would go to heaven. The punishment for breaking the law, is the second death. Which is why Christ was given unto us. Everyone that breaks the law, regardless of if they are aware of it or not, their punishment is eternal damnation, it is the second death. Gentiles, and Jews alike. That's the enslaving he's referring to. Making themselves slaves under the law. Christ frees us (jew and gentiles alike) from the law, in that, we can observe the law (serve God) without worrying about the second death (the punishments and thereby being enslaved and or being "under" the law)

then in verse 10, he talks of them going back to paganism, and their old ways before they knew God. I've heard many people say this to do away with the law... but he's writing to gentiles. They "knew not God" how could they observe those days, months, times and years, if they're going back to be enslaved to their old ways? Especially if they were gentiles, and their old ways weren't that of God in the first place.

11, refers to him feeling like he has instilled in them the knowledge of God, while they have diluted it with Pagan worship, meaning that they'll pass it on, and make preaching Christ that much harder because of the incorrect knowledge they'll bestow upon new believers. Basically making it the way it is today.

I'm making it known that gentiles are to follow the law for a SIGN of their salvation. Not for the root of their salvation. Like natural born Israel. The root of salvation, is Christ. Regardless of being Israel by blood, or in spirit. We serve God, and one cannot serve God without - in their heart - desiring to obey his law. He wrote it on our hearts. We cannot uphold it, obviously, but we desire to, and God can read that on our hearts. If we know our cause for salvation is Christ, and we still desire, though we are already saved, to uphold the law, that proves the seed of God is in us, and thereby it proves who we are the children of. The idea that gentiles DON'T have to observe the law, is fallacy, and it's deception that - at the end of which - will lead to death. Otherwise Jesus wouldn't say, depart from me, workers of lawlessness.