Why God's Purpose for the Tribulation excludes the Church

jgr said in post #95:

The disciples personally experienced everything that Christ had predicted about "ye".

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Note that they didn't.

For example, just as Matthew 24:2 wasn't fulfilled in 70 AD (because the Wailing Wall of the 2nd Jewish temple complex still stands), so Matthew 24:15 wasn't fulfilled in 70 AD.

In Matthew 24:15 Jesus Christ is referring to Daniel 11:31.

Regarding the "abomination of desolation", Daniel 11:31 was typically fulfilled by the abomination of desolation in 1 Maccabees 1:54 which occurred in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 2nd Jewish temple in Jerusalem in the time of Antiochus IV. But per Jesus Christ's statement in Matthew 24:15 the Church will see the abomination of desolation in Daniel 11:31 fulfilled (antitypically) in the future when the Church will see the abomination of desolation stand in the holy place (of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem). This future abomination of desolation could be a standing, android image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15) which his followers ("they") will put in the holy place of the temple (Daniel 11:31) to be worshipped (Revelation 13:15) after they've stopped the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices which the ultra-Orthodox Jews will have restarted in front of the temple (Daniel 11:31). This image will pollute the holy place of the temple (Daniel 11:31).

The Antichrist will then fulfill Daniel 11:36 and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 by sitting himself (at least one time) in the temple and proclaiming himself God. By the power of Satan (the dragon, Revelation 12:9), the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will then rule and be worshipped by all the nations of the earth for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:4-18), and will physically overcome Biblical Christians (not in hiding) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Also, from the day on which (antitypically) "the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be 1,290 days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the 1,335 days" (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). Also, because the Antichrist will fulfill Daniel 11:31 antitypically (Matthew 24:15) and will fulfill Daniel 11:36 for the first and only time (2 Thessalonians 2:4), he will also fulfill all of Daniel 11:21-45 (the first part antitypically and the rest for the first and only time) when he arises on the world stage. For that passage refers to the career of the same man. And since the Antichrist will fulfill all of Daniel 11:21-45 when he arises on the world stage, then just preceding his arising on the world stage, Daniel 11:13-19 could be fulfilled antitypically by a future, Iraqi Baathist General (the Antichrist's precursor) who will defeat and occupy Israel and Egypt with a huge Iraqi Army (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath").

Hal A Peno said in post #112:

Catholicism isn't the harlot or any of the beast. The reformers had it wrong.

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Regarding the harlot, that's right, in the sense that while the corrupt aspects of the RCC (as of all other churches) are included in what Revelation's symbolic harlot "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) represents, it represents much more than just the corrupt aspects of the RCC. For the RCC just by itself doesn't reign over the kings of the earth (Revelation 17:18). Nor is the RCC the only institution which buys merchandise (Revelation 18:11). Nor has the RCC killed all Christian martyrs who have ever been killed (Revelation 18:24). Nor has the RCC just by itself corrupted the entire world (Revelation 18:3). Nor has the RCC been continuously supported by the empires of fallen mankind throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10). Instead, Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" represents all of fallen mankind's corrupt political (Revelation 17:18), economic (Revelation 18:11) and religious (Revelation 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Revelation 18:3) and throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10).

The 10 kings of the future Antichrist's empire will destroy with fire what Revelation's "Babylon" represents (Revelation 17:16-17) when they destroy the cities of the nations (Revelation 16:19), probably with nukes (and probably with Fission-Fusion-Fission, "FFF", or "666", nukes, "F" representing the number 6 in English gematria), at the time of the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19), which will be the final event (Revelation 16:17) of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus Christ's Second Coming (Revelation 19:2 to 20:6, Matthew 24:29-31). They could do this under the direction of Lucifer/Satan (Isaiah 14:17,12), who could want to leave only a literal "scorched earth" for Jesus to return to.

Near the very end of the future Tribulation, Lucifer (employing the ancient lies of Gnosticism) could say to the Antichrist and his 10 kings something like: "Our great battle against the evil, tyrant god YHWH is about to begin [Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19], a battle which we will win, and so we will be able to escape YHWH's prison house, this material universe, and return to the wholly-spiritual Pleroma [i.e. Heaven]. So let us now destroy this prison cell, this foul planet, and let us, as it were, burn up all the gewgaws which we have hung upon our cell walls. Let us burn up all our great cities, all our magnificent systems. Let us break all our chains of attachment to this vile, physical realm, that we might more freely ascend back to our rightful place in the Pleroma [cf. Isaiah 14:13-14]".

Of course this will be a lie. For at His Second Coming, Jesus Christ (who is YHWH: John 10:30, Zechariah 14:3-4) will completely defeat all the unsaved armies of the world, arrayed against YHWH (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19-21). And Jesus will have Lucifer bound in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-6, Isaiah 14:15), a time period commonly called the Millennium. During that time, Jesus will restore ruined parts of the earth and make them like the Garden of Eden (Ezekiel 36:35, Isaiah 51:3). And after the Millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15), God will create a New Heaven (a new 1st heaven, a new sky/atmosphere for the earth) and a New Earth (a new surface for the earth) (Revelation 21:1). And then God will descend from the 3rd heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem to live with saved humanity on the New Earth (Revelation 21:2-4).

Hal A Peno said in post #112:

Catholicism isn't the harlot or any of the beast. The reformers had it wrong.

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Regarding the beast, that's right, in the sense that the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast"), during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), won't support Catholicism in its past and current form, insofar as Catholicism affirms Jesus is the Christ, while the Antichrist will deny Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22). And Catholicism affirms Jesus is the Son of God, while the Antichrist will deny Jesus is the Son of God (1 John 2:22b). And Catholicism affirms Christ is in the flesh, while the Antichrist (like the Gnostics) will deny Christ is in the flesh (2 John 1:7). And Catholicism affirms the God of the Bible (YHWH) is the true God, while the Antichrist (like the Gnostics) will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). And Catholicism affirms the only man who is God is Jesus Christ of Nazareth, while the Antichrist will say he (the Antichrist) is God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). And Catholicism affirms Lucifer (Satan) is evil, while the Antichrist will bring the world into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9). So the Antichrist's religion during his 3.5-year worldwide reign won't be Catholicism in its past and current form, but a blend of Luciferianism and Gnosticism.

Nonetheless, before Lucifer gives the Antichrist power over all nations (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), the Antichrist, and the man who will be his False Prophet (Revelation 19:20) could at first pretend to support Catholicism (as well as Christianity generally, and also Islam), in order to start gaining a worldwide following.

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The beast which comes up out of the earth in Revelation 13:11-16 represents the individual man who will become the Antichrist's False Prophet (Revelation 19:20, Revelation 16:13). He could be a secretly-apostate pope who at some point during his tenure will make a great push for peace and unity between Christianity and Islam. He could say something like: "Why do we fight each other? Are we not all the spiritual children of Abraham and of his God, the one God? Can't we lay aside our foolish, man-made differences of theology, which have done us no good at all, but have only brought us hatred and violence, and unite into one religion of Abraham, one religion of peace, based on love for the one God and love for our fellow man? What is more important than this?"

He could be so skillful in elucidating what the moderate Muslims could call "the true, peaceful, loving nature of Islam", that he could be hailed by them worldwide as (in their words) "a Great Imam, come to rescue our beloved Islam from the bad reputation falsely given to it by the terrorists". In this way, a pope could come to hold high positions of power in two religions at the same time, which could be symbolized by the two horns of the False Prophet lamb (Revelation 13:11). This would be similar to how the seven horns of the true-Jesus lamb in Revelation 5:6 could represent the true Jesus holding seven positions of power at the same time (compare Jesus wearing many crowns at the same time in Revelation 19:12). The False Prophet could even say he is Jesus. But he won't say he's Christ, for the False Prophet and the Antichrist will deny Jesus is the Christ, and will deny Christ is in the flesh (1 John 2:22; 2 John 1:7).

Once the False Prophet by his amazing miracles has brought the world under his spell (Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), including many Muslims and Christians who may not care much for scriptural dogma, but could go wild over his signs and wonders, he could begin to (in his words) "restore to the world the real message which was spoken by me (Jesus) at my first coming, and by the great prophet Mohammed, but which message became corrupted by power-hungry men when they copied and changed the early manuscripts of the Bible and the Koran". He could then gradually initiate the world into the Antichrist's Gnostic Luciferianism (1 John 4:3, Revelation 13:4-6), a religion which could have existed since ancient times in some "mystery" cults, and still exists today in the highest degree of initiation of a worldwide secret society. The False Prophet could present his miraculously calling fire down from heaven (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof that Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist are the true God (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9), in an inversion of how back in Old Testament times, the prophet Elijah miraculously called fire down from heaven to prove YHWH is the true God (1 Kings 18:37-39).

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If a secretly apostate pope does become the Antichrist's False Prophet (of Revelation 13:11-16, Revelation 19:20 and Revelation 16:13), adherents of Catholicism will have to decide what their ultimate source of truth is: Is it the pope and the RCC, or God and the Bible? Many adherents of Catholicism who know God and the Bible well and hold to them as their ultimate source of truth will no doubt be utterly aghast at the false doctrines of a False Prophet pope. Such adherents of Catholicism could demand he be removed for heresy and apostasy, and that the cardinals elect a new pope. But other adherents of Catholicism, including many cardinals, bishops and priests, could be deceived (along with most of the rest of the world) into believing the False Prophet pope's false doctrines, because of his ability to perform the most amazing miracles (Revelation 13:13-14, Revelation 19:20; cf. Matthew 24:24).

And so a great schism could arise within the RCC. Compare the Akita prophecy: "The work of the devil will infiltrate even into the Church in such a way that one will see cardinals opposing cardinals, bishops against bishops". Many adherents of Catholicism could follow the False Prophet pope, while other adherents of Catholicism could reject him and elect their own, new pope (or reinstall a former pope who's still alive), whom they could declare to be the "True Pope". But this new (or reinstated) "True Pope" could be murdered, along with many of his followers, by the False Prophet pope's soldiers. Compare the Third Secret of Fatima: "he [the pope] was killed by a group of soldiers who fired bullets and arrows at him, and in the same way there died one after another the other Bishops, Priests, men and women Religious, and various lay people of different ranks and positions". Could the soldiers firing "arrows" be the Vatican's Swiss Guards, whose weapons and colorful uniforms hark back to the Middle Ages?

After this slaughter, the False Prophet pope could manage to retain the papacy and full control of the Vatican, and through his (deceived) cardinals, bishops and priests, retain full control of all RCC cathedrals, parishes, churches, etc., throughout the world. And when the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") obtains power over all nations, he and the False Prophet will make war against true, Biblical Christians (whether they're adherents of Catholicism or not) throughout the world, and will physically overcome them and kill them (by beheading) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

It's only when the Antichrist has completely broken the physical power of the true Church (which consists of all true Christians, whether they're adherents of Catholicism or not: Ephesians 4:4-6) that the future Tribulation will end (Daniel 12:7b) and Jesus Christ's Second Coming will immediately occur, at which time He will physically resurrect and rapture (gather together) the Church (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). And at His Second Coming, Jesus Christ will tread the winepress of God's wrath alone (Isaiah 63:3, Revelation 19:15-21), and so He/God will get all the glory for defeating the power of evil on the earth (Deuteronomy 32:39-43). For He/God won't share this glory with the Church (cf. Isaiah 42:8-14, Isaiah 26:18).

I have come to break it down to Antichrist, which is basic denial, rejection, repulsiveness, and the other aspects we have seen since the beginning, to False Messiah, which is what this character of the future events will actually be.

The world will follow after him and think he is the greatest thing to ever come on the scene. He will be the answer to mankind's problems and bring us into a new dimension of existence. To the world, he will be the real messiah to solve all our ills, bring a new spiritual level, and the ultimate in prosperity and fulfilled life. Even promises of medical miracles that will allow humans almost immortal existence. Probably thru genetic manipulation, which if one allows their genetics to be changed, will make them no longer human and thereby negate any chance of salvation. The ultimate "mark of the beast". Transhumanism via genetic manipulation is right at our door now. Scientists are already mixing DNA from different animals and creating chimeras, or mixed species. TheAll that follow him can expect that, and all those that don't are hindering man's ability to move to a higher plane of existence and will need to be eliminated so that mankind can move on.

So much so that he will be the answer to every major religious belief going. He will come across as the Messiah that Israel has been looking for, the 12th imam that Islam has been waiting for, the embodiment of Krishna, etc.

So much so that if it were possible, even the elect will be deceived. Difficult for some to imagine, but a major deception is coming on the earth that we really have little ability to imagine how extensive it is.

And there is ample passages in the OT and NT to show that the Church as we know it now will not be a part of this. Even in cult literature from those that channel so-called alien entities and such, they go to great lengths to explain away a "mass evacuation" of lots of people when these events start and the great leader is revealed, and even include that all children (probably young enough to not really be at an age of accountability regarding spiritual matters) will be removed. Even going so far as to say that "in the twinkling of an eye" these will be evacuated and taken away to be re-educated to fit into the new human harmonic vibration that the those left will be ready to embrace.

I find it amazing that Satan has gone to great lengths to explain away the removal of the righteous thru many occult "channelers". And a pre-trib removal at that! If this removal was just a pipe dream, then why would Satan waste a lot of time trying to explain it away? You have to keep in mind, Satan knows more about scripture than many of us do. He used scripture against Yeshua didn't he? Folks, this is a war that many among us have no real grasp of. And one of the major aspects of waging war is deception. And Satan is the master of deception.

Bible2+ said:

For example, just as Matthew 24:2 wasn't fulfilled in 70 AD (because the Wailing Wall of the 2nd Jewish temple complex still stands), so Matthew 24:15 wasn't fulfilled in 70 AD.

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Matthew 24:2
And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Flavius Josephus, Wars of the Jews, Book VII, Chapter VIII
And I cannot but wish that we had all died before we had seen that holy city demolished by the hands of our enemies, or the foundations of our holy temple dug up after so profane a manner.


Matthew 24:15
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

Flavius Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews - Book X, Chapter XI
In the very same manner Daniel also wrote concerning the Roman government, and that our country should be made desolate by them. All these things did this man leave in writing, as God had showed them to him, insomuch that such as read his prophecies, and see how they have been fulfilled...

Bible2+ said:

The gematrial numerical values of the letters in the Antichrist's personal name will add up to six hundred and sixty-six

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And in the Latin alphabet the various titles of the Pope add up to 666, for he is a man.

VICARIUS FILII DEI 666, The Number of the Beast

There is no way that what went on in AD 70 could be construed to match up the Abomination of Desolation. It is clearly meant as something set up in the Holy of Holies like Antiochus did. The text Matthew 24:15 is very clear, irregardless of translation. The destruction of the Temple by Titus Vespasian and 4 Roman legions in AD70 did not give time for anything to be set up in the temple. They tore it apart to remove the melted gold after the temple caught fire in the final attacks on the city. And don't confuse the temple with the base. If my house is torn down and the foundation remains, the house was still torn down. Just because the foundation was not destroyed doesn't necessarily mean that the temple wasn't torn down to where not one stone left upon another.

While Matthew 24:2 is in mind regarding AD70 and later when the city was really plowed under and a Temple to Jupiter was placed on the temple mount after the revolt of AD135, what we call today the Dome of the Rock, everything following verse 2 is not related to these events. The first two verses are at the temple so fit, but from Matthew 24:3 on, it is another discussion later on the Mount of Olives, which many overlook. It is in reference to latter days events. Two different locations, two different discussions.

Copperhead said:

Revelation 18 meaning Mecca is a bit of the stretch.

But Vatican heraldry does have a lot of Babylonian symbols incorporated in it. It can be somewhat argued that the veneration of Mary is strikingly similar to the Babylonian worship of Semiramis the queen of Babylon and the child Tammuz.

There have been good scholars on both sides, that Babylon in Revelation 18 is the Roman Church, and that it really is literal Babylon. I see no connection to Mecca, though it can also can be argued quite effectively that Islam is solidly built upon much of Babylonian religious concepts.

There are even some who argue effectively that America is alluded to as a viable application of Babylon in Revelation 18.

But, one can come to just about any conclusion that fits a presupposition. If one tortures the text long enough, it will confess to just about any eschatological position.

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By no means do I claim to have this all figured out, and I'm always willing to change my mind.

"Babylon the Great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird."

Babylon can only be associated with a few things, esp. in the NT. Literal Babylon, confusion, or false religion. Babylon the Great means, "A large false religion." I say it's ISLAM.

Babylon falls twice. Babylon as an ancient city is fallen, and Islam, the planets largest false religion is fallen in Rev. 18, destroyed by Jesus and his armies. This isn't Rome or America. It's the religion of Islam whose birthplace is in the deserts of Arabia, a city called Mecca. Islam dominates the ancient region of Babylon, and you can hardly find an open Christian there today.

"For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies."

For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.....

Islam's goals are self-evident to those who just look into the religion a bit. It's no secret that 'world domination through demographics and terrorism' is their main goal. They even call these times, "the third jihad" or last and final round of the Crusades before the Madhi returns. Look at how many people have fled the Mid-East region lately.

"All nations have drunk of the wine of her fornication." That means Islam has proselytized itiself across the planet having a dominating presence in nearly every country. They are called, radical, extremist, Islamist, jihadist, "foreign fighters." Countries who have allowed this Islamic immigration, i.e. welcomed Muslims, now have thousands and millions of the followers of the devil's religion of Islam among them, many who have a swelling hate of all infidels, esp. Christians and Jews, growing within that is like fermenting wine.

Delicasies...
"insolent luxury," is rendered "wantonness" in Rev 18:3, RV (marg., "luxury;" AV, "delicacies," not a sufficiently strong rendering).

"DRUNK" All nations have 'drunk.' (allowed Islam in and reaped its friut)
To drink....
figuratively, to receive into the soul what serves to refresh strengthen, nourish it unto life eternal.
Vines says about the word 'drunk'...
(e) of "participating" in the abominations imparted by the corrupt religious and commercial systems emanating from Babylon, Rev 18:3;

We drink wine at communion figurative of the blood of Christ. In this case, the wine of their fornication is the fermentation of hate that swells up within the harlots of Islam. (jihadist) And to think.

Babylon the Great, Islam, gave birth to Islamic terrorism, and promisses these little harlots a mansion with up to 72 bedrooms with a virgin in each one in paradise!

..."and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies."

The abundance of her delicacies is the abundance of Arab oil that made millions of merchants in the world very rich. Vines...
delicacies,
"insolent luxury," is rendered "wantonness" in Rev 18:3, RV (marg., "luxury;" AV, "delicacies," not a sufficiently strong rendering).
Abundance...'strength and power.'
To be waxed rich...
to be rich, to have abundance
of outward possessions
metaph. to be richly supplied

Looking at the meaning of the words in v. 3, it can be rendered like this,

"Out of a lack of respect (insolence) Exxon/Mobil executives and stock holders became richly supplied by the power of the abundance of Arab oil."

And that's why we allowed the Islamic immigration of those who will bring the world into tribulation. We're in bed with the harlot. The harlot and the kings of the earth are both accused and guilty of fornication. The kings of the earth and the merchants became rich by fornicating with the harlot.

"Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double."

God will punish the followers of Islam if they don't get out of it.

And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning
Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

That's probably Mecca getting nuked, maybe even by Iran!

And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:
Arab oil is shut off.

For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,...

Arab oil is transported and traded only by sea in 'barges' or "SHIPS."
And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!
Mecca, figurative of Islam, Babylon the Great. Maybe Medina too.

The two horned beast...

Holy Mosque Twin Minaret
New Grand Mosque minarets ignite debate on Zamzam water sources

Two 420-meter high minarets under construction

The foundation work for one of the two minarets under construction in the Grand Mosque in Makkah.
Thursday, 07 August 2014 - 11 Shawwal 1435

MAKKAH — The Saudi Binladin Group is constructing two 420-meter high minarets as part of the ongoing Grand Mosque expansion.

Construction of the new structures has raised concerns as consultancy studies have pointed out that work in the area could dry up Zamzam water sources.

The first minaret will be constructed on the northeast side, while the other will be located in the northwest side.

The structures will rise up to about half the height of the Makkah Clock Tower, the tallest concrete building in the world at 817 meters high and the second tallest tower in the world after the Burj Khalifa in Dubai, which is 828 meters high.

The foundations for the new minarets can now be clearly seen and each covers 900 square meters.

However, no further details are available from Binladin Group, which has not yet published any reports or revealed any information about the two structures.

The two new structures will raise the number of minarets in the Grand Mosque to 15 after the completion of the expansion project.

A few months ago, photos of the expansion project showing these two minarets have spread among engineers and on social media and resulted in a discussion of the positive and negative effects of such structures.

Critics say they could have a negative effect on the sources of Zamzam water, especially as international consulting offices that conducted studies in cooperation with the Binladin Group have recommended not building in the location of the northeastern minaret.

The studies revealed that the construction of high-rise buildings and explosives used in removing mountains around the Grand Mosque can have a damaging affect on the sources of Zamzam water.

http://www.saudigazette.com.sa/index...20140807213902

Copperhead said:

There is no way that what went on in AD 70 could be construed to match up the Abomination of Desolation. It is clearly meant as something set up in the Holy of Holies like Antiochus did. The text Matthew 24:15 is very clear, irregardless of translation. The destruction of the Temple by Titus Vespasian and 4 Roman legions in AD70 did not give time for anything to be set up in the temple. They tore it apart to remove the melted gold after the temple caught fire in the final attacks on the city. And don't confuse the temple with the base. If my house is torn down and the foundation remains, the house was still torn down. Just because the foundation was not destroyed doesn't necessarily mean that the temple wasn't torn down to where not one stone left upon another.

While Matthew 24:2 is in mind regarding AD70 and later when the city was really plowed under and a Temple to Jupiter was placed on the temple mount after the revolt of AD135, what we call today the Dome of the Rock, everything following verse 2 is not related to these events. The first two verses are at the temple so fit, but from Matthew 24:3 on, it is another discussion later on the Mount of Olives, which many overlook. It is in reference to latter days events. Two different locations, two different discussions.

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Olivet Timing Revealed by Luke’s Gospel:

Compare Luke's Gospel to that of Matthew if you want to understand the timing.



Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple (These subtitles are found in e-Sword.)



Luk 21:5　 Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said,　

Luk 21:6　 "These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down."　

(Mat 24:2　 And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down."　)





Luk 21:7　 So they asked Him, saying, "Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?"　

(Mat 24:3　 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?")

(　Mar 13:3　 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately,　

Mar 13:4　 "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?")　





Luk 21:8　 And He said: "Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time has drawn near.' Therefore do not go after them.　

(Mat 24:5　 For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many.　)



Luk 21:9　 But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately."

(Mat 24:6　 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.)　



Jesus Foretells Wars and Persecution



Luk 21:10　 Then He said to them, "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.　

(Mat 24:7　 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.　)



Luk 21:11　 And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven.　

(Mat 24:7　 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.　)



Luk 21:12　 But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake.　

(Mat 24:9　 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.)　(Read Acts 22:19-20, where Paul reveals that he fulfilled this text.)



Luk 21:13　 But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony.　

Luk 21:14　 Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer;　

Luk 21:15　 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist.　

Luk 21:16　 You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death.　

Luk 21:17　 And you will be hated by all for My name's sake.　

(Mat 24:10　 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.　)



Luk 21:18　 But not a hair of your head shall be lost.　

Luk 21:19　 By your patience possess your souls.　

(Mat 24:13　 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.)　



Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem



Luk 21:20　 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.　

(Mat 24:15　 "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),　



Luk 21:21　 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.　

(Mat 24:16　 "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.)　



Luk 21:22　 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.　

Luk 21:23　 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.　

(Mat 24:19　 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!　)



Luk 21:24　 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.　
(Almost all Bible scholars agree that the first part of this verse is about 70 AD. The end of the verse contains a period of time known as "the time of the Gentiles". In Luke 21:25-30 we find the future Second Coming of Christ, after "the times of the Gentiles" comes to and end.)


The Coming of the Son of Man



Luk 21:25　 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;　

(Mat 24:29　 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.)　



Luk 21:26　 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.　

Luk 21:27　 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.　

(Mat 24:30　 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.)　



Luk 21:28　 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."　

(Mat 24:33　 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!)
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From "Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus, Book 12, chapter 7

"6. When therefore the generals of Antiochus's armies had been beaten so often, Judas assembled the people together, and told them, that after these many victories which God had given them, they ought to go up to Jerusalem, and purify the temple, and offer the appointed sacrifices. But as soon as he, with the whole multitude, was come to Jerusalem, and found the temple deserted, and its gates burnt down, and plants growing in the temple of their own accord, on account of its desertion, he and those that were with him began to lament, and were quite confounded at the sight of the temple; so he chose out some of his soldiers, and gave them order to fight against those guards that were in the citadel, until he should have purified the temple. When therefore he had carefully purged it, and had brought in new vessels, the candlestick, the table [of shew-bread], and the altar [of incense], which were made of gold, he hung up the veils at the gates, and added doors to them. He also took down the altar [of burnt-offering], and built a new one of stones that he gathered together, and not of such as were hewn with iron tools. So on the five and twentieth day of the month Casleu, which the Macedonians call Apeliens, they lighted the lamps that were on the candlestick, and offered incense upon the altar [of incense], and laid the loaves upon the table [of shew-bread], and offered burnt-offerings upon the new altar [of burnt-offering]. Now it so fell out, that these things were done on the very same day on which their Divine worship had fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use, after three years' time; for so it was, that the temple was made desolate by Antiochus, and so continued for three years. This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apeliens, and on the hundred fifty and third olympiad: but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apeliens, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would dissolve that worship [for some time].

7. Now Judas celebrated the festival of the restoration of the sacrifices of the temple for eight days, and omitted no sort of pleasures thereon; but he feasted them upon very rich and splendid sacrifices; and he honored God, and delighted them by hymns and psalms. Nay, they were so very glad at the revival of their customs, when, after a long time of intermission, they unexpectedly had regained the freedom of their worship, that they made it a law for their posterity, that they should keep a festival, on account of the restoration of their temple worship, for eight days. And from that time to this we celebrate this festival, and call it Lights. I suppose the reason was, because this liberty beyond our hopes appeared to us; and that thence was the name given to that festival. Judas also rebuilt the walls round about the city, and reared towers of great height against the incursions of enemies, and set guards therein. He also fortified the city Bethsura, that it might serve as a citadel against any distresses that might come from our enemies. "

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Josephus confirms above the understanding of the Jews of his time, who knew that Daniel had predicted the events of 167 BC, by Antiochus Epiphanes.
Josephus confirms it as a historical fact.

John 10:22 is a reference to the celebration of Hanukkah each year by the Jews of Jesus time.



The Book of Matthew was addressed mainly to a Jewish audience. Jesus was telling the Jews of His time that something similar to 167 BC would happen during 70 AD. Not only did Antiochus desecrate the temple, but he also attacked the city killing thousands of Jews and stopped the temple sacrifices. Based on John 10:22, the Jews were well aware of this historical fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy. Luke’s Gospel was written to more of a Gentile audience, so he spelled it out for them. Matthew 24:15-16 and Luke 21:20-21 are clearly parallel accounts, because we have the same reference to flee in the second verse in each Gospel.

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I've read the OP and found so many things wrong it's just too much for me to cover. then I saw who wrote the article, another pre-trib big gun, John Walvoord.
One fabrication I would like to cover,

"Where is 'The Church' in Revelation 4-19?"
First of all. Servants, fellowservants, saints, brethren, martyrs of Jesus and them that fear His name, ARE found in those chapters and they are the church. The word "saints' over a dozen times in Revelation.
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1. Paul only mentioned the term “church” once in the first chapter of his epistle to the Galatians. Do not Galatians chapters 2–6 apply to the church? The same can be said of 2 Thessalonians; the term “church” is only mentioned in chapter one. And in Colossians, the term is mentioned in the first and last chapters of the book. Does not the body of the letter to the Colossians apply to the church? So this method consistently applied is senseless.

2. Second, the word “church” is absent from the books of Mark, Luke, John, 2 Timothy, Titus, 1 Peter, 2 Peter, 1 John, 2 John, and Jude. Does that mean those books do not pertain to the church?

3. The word “church” is absent from rapture passages: 1Thessalonians 4:13–17 and John 14:1–4. Following their logic, are we right to conclude that the church will not be raptured? Of course not!

4. The word “church” is absent from the heavenly scenes in Revelation 4–5. But heaven is the one place we would expect to find the church where pretribulationism says it will be at that time (because of their allegorical interpretation that sees Revelation 4:1 representing the church being caught up). The word “church” is also absent from Revelation chapters 19–20. Will the church not participate in rejoicing in heaven and the marriage supper of the Lamb? Moreover, the Bride of Christ is found in Revelation 19:7 but the word “church” is never mentioned. Is the Bride then not the church? (cf. Rev 21:2!).

5. Who are the recipients of the book of Revelation? Revelation 1:1 says, “The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants (doulos) what must happen very soon” (Rev 1:1). The term used is “servants” (doulos). It will be the servants within the professing church who will endure persecution for their faith. The message is for them: Revelation 22:6 says, “Then the angel said to me, ‘These words are reliable and true. The Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants what must happen soon’” (Rev 22:6). It is the servants/true believers/saints/the elect of God/those who hold to the testimony of Christ who will endure struggle and persecution and be ultimately victorious.

6. The word “saints” is used 59 times in the New Testament to refer to a true believer in Christ, a member of the true church. For example, the apostle Paul, recalling his days when he persecuted the church, equates the church with saints (compare Phil 3:6 and Acts 26:10). Pretribulationism claims that the reference to saints in the book of Revelation is some special group of “tribulation saints.” This falsely creates a new class of Christians apart from the church. Pretribulationism would have us believe that the saints in Revelation 13:7, who are being persecuted by Antichrist, cannot be part of the church; but they fail to see that the saints who are described as the Bride of Christ in Revelation 19:8 are the church! This false distinction is indicative of a flawed theological system forcing itself upon Scripture to reach their preconceived conclusion.

Above not copyright by ALAN E. KURSCHNER
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There were saints in the OT, but they were not the Church. There will be saints during the 70th week of Daniel, but they will not be the Church.

Yeshua said that the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church. But the one who comes out of the abyss (Hell) will prevail against the saints and overcome them, as mentioned in both the OT and NT (the testimony of two witnesses as required by the Mosaic Law to determine a matter).

Now either Yeshua didn't know what He was talking about in the Gospels or the Revelation He gave to John, or there are differing categories of believers in view. With all due respect to John Walvoord and others.

Quasar92 said:

The Church IS NOT Israel, nor is Israel the church!

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Couple of questions about this statement

1. What were the gentiles grafted into in Romans 11:17?
2. If the church is not part of Israel (Abraham's seed), how does it inherit the promises: Galatians 3:29?
3. How are the OT saints made perfect outside of the body of Christ: Hebrews 11:39?

Quasar92 said:

The Church IS NOT Israel, nor is Israel the church!

Click to expand...

Couple of questions about this statement

1. What were the gentiles grafted into in Romans 11:17?
2. If the church is not part of Israel (Abraham's seed), how does it inherit the promises: Galatians 3:29?
3. How are the OT saints made perfect outside of the body of Christ: Hebrews 11:39?

claninja said:

Couple of questions about this statement

1. What were the gentiles grafted into in Romans 11:17?
2. If the church is not part of Israel (Abraham's seed), how does it inherit the promises: Galatians 3:29?
3. How are the OT saints made perfect outside of the body of Christ: Hebrews 11:39?

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The key word is "grafted". That doesn't mean they become Israel or replace Israel. They are grafted in due to having the faith of Abraham, but that doesn't make gentiles physical Israel. Just like Paul says that all of Israel are not spiritual Israel, because many do not have the faith of the patriarchs. Also Inside the body of believers, there is no Jew or Gentile, but that is within the body of believers in Messiah. But also, there is neither male or female. I defy anyone to grab a bunch of males and females at fellowship some morning, put them in front of the congregation and have them strip and try to use the argument there is neither male or female. Clearly, the idea is that spiritually, there is no difference. There is a physical difference between Jew and Gentile, but likewise, within the body and in strictly a positional relationship with Christ, there is neither Jew or Gentile.

That was the mystery of the Church that Paul elaborates on in various places in scripture. And that is what makes the difference between physical Israel and the Church. Many folks just can't seem to grasp it for some reason. That was why the Judaizers did what they did. They thought that gentiles had to become like Jews in following the Torah to be in the body. They couldn't grasp the distinction between Israel and the Church. And besides, the promises to physical Israel were physical and earthly. There was not promises of heaven, being at the throne of God, etc given to physical Israel. It was all promises of land and that they would rule over earthly nations. Those in the church have greater promises. We reign with Messiah as his Bride. If I have a paid for Lamborghini, why would I want to give it up for a Ford Focus? If the church is now Israel and gets all the physical promises, they also get all the curses. That part folks conveniently leave out.

I am a successful businessman. I know a good deal when I see it. And I have a great deal in the Messiah. I have no desire to limit myself and assume the promises of physical Israel. I love Israel and will indeed pray and bless Israel as instructed by God, but I am not going to put myself in their shoes for one minute. If that is someone else's desire, have at it. I'll rest on greater promises.

Copperhead said:

Transhumanism via genetic manipulation is right at our door now. Scientists are already mixing DNA from different animals and creating chimeras, or mixed species. TheAll that follow him can expect that, and all those that don't are hindering man's ability to move to a higher plane of existence and will need to be eliminated so that mankind can move on.

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I have been pointing out this very scenario on this forum for a long time but most here refuse to see it. Also gender fluidity is going to become a mainstay of most countries in the end, and we see that today. The corruption of God's way caused the flood of Noah. We will see a repeat of that.

Copperhead said:

They are grafted in due to having the faith of Abraham, but that doesn't make gentiles physical Israel

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Thank you for the response, but this doesn't answer my question, what are they grafted into?

Copperhead said:

Clearly, the idea is that spiritually, there is no difference.

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This has always been more important, even in the old covenant. Hence faith in God justifies the OT saints, not works of the law.

Copperhead said:

Just like Paul says that all of Israel are not spiritual Israel, because many do not have the faith of the patriarchs.

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Are gentiles, who are now offspring of Abraham, spiritual Israel as well? If so, are the spiritual promises they inherent better than those of physical Israel?

Copperhead said:

There was not promises of heaven, being at the throne of God, etc given to physical Israel.

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I would disagree, and so would the author of Hebrews 11

Copperhead said:

If the church is now Israel and gets all the physical promises, they also get all the curses. That part folks conveniently leave out.

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These were a shadow of christ

claninja said:

I would disagree, and so would the author of Hebrews 11

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The great faith chapter. It is examples of pure trust in God. This chapter expounds on the trust that God desires and has nothing to do with the different individual promises made to Israel and the Church. The writer is using these examples of what a righteous faith is.

Copperhead said:

The great faith chapter. It is examples of pure trust in God. This chapter expounds on the trust that God desires and has nothing to do with the different individual promises made to Israel and the Church. The writer is using these examples of what a righteous faith is.

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Hebrews 11:9-10, 16 By faith he went to live in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise. For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God. But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city.

That would be true, after the millennial reign. But let's stay focused on the present, the Great Tribulation, and the millennial reign. Neither of these have the future city whose builder is God. At that time you are highlighting, there will be the new heaven and new earth of Revelation 21. All previous things will pass away. There is no distinction in tribes, nations, peoples in that future period.

You have got keep your times and periods separate. Israel is given the land that was promise to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, during the millennial reign. There are physical Israel and Gentiles that survive the Great Tribulation and go into the Millennial kingdom and populate the earth again.