"Ask Jesus Into Your Heart"???

ubicaritas said:

I'm not against it in principle. I'm against the idea that it's normative for all people and a boundarymarker for faith.

We Lutherans are not known for wearing faith on our sleeve or being effusively emotional, but we do of course experiences emotions from time to time. It's just not something we use and say "look, this person has real faith". Emotions are not the biblical evidence of faith for us, loving our neighbor is evidence of real faith. And love is not just an emotion, it's a disposition of the will. It's doing the tough, necessary stuff even when you don't feel so loving.

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Again, John 1:12 says you can receive Christ. So setting up an invitation to receive Christ is not wrong. It is just one of the ways to Christ. One can also believe, too.


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Light of the East said:

There is nothing which better shows the unmerited and free gift of God's grace than baptizing an infant who can do nothing except to receive passively that grace of God's free love to all mankind.

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Where is it taught in the Bible about baptizing infants?

ubicaritas said:

I'm not against it in principle. I'm against the idea that it's normative for all people and a boundarymarker for faith.

We Lutherans are not known for wearing faith on our sleeve or being effusively emotional, but we do of course experiences emotions from time to time. It's just not something we use and say "look, this person has real faith". Emotions are not the biblical evidence of faith for us, loving our neighbor is evidence of real faith. And love is not just an emotion, it's a disposition of the will. It's doing the tough, necessary stuff even when you don't feel so loving.

Click to expand...

Emotions are a part of life. While loving with actions are good and essential to the faith, we are also not a bunch of vulcans, either. Smiling, being kind, and loving is good. I cannot imagine God's Kingdom being a place full of vulcans where people were not happy or open about their emotions.


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jimmyjimmy said:

What is the proper response to the proclamation of the gospel? What do we ask of an unbeliever when we proclaim the gospel to him?

Do we ask him to say a particular prayer, e.g., the "sinners prayer"?

Do we ask him to "invite Jesus into his heart"?

If in a church setting, do we ask him to raise his hand or come forward for prayer?

What's the very first thing you tell, or ask of, someone after you present him with the gospel?

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I don't ask Jesus to come into anyone's heart. Here are my steps of faith:
1. I know that I am a sinner without hope and deserving of hell.
2. I acknowledge that Jesus the Son of God died for me on the cross and rose again to give me eternal life.
3. I now receive Jesus as my personal Saviour and Lord knowing that as I confess my sin He will forgive me and cleanse me from all unrighteousness and make me totally right with God.
4. I now believe that I have been born again of God and have received a new heart to serve Him for the rest of my life.

Jason0047 said:

Again, John 1:12 says you can receive Christ. So setting up an invitation to receive Christ is not wrong. It is just one of the ways to Christ. One can also believe, too.

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I see it as potentially introducing religious vanity that glorifies the human will. If salvation is ultimately down to our choice, then the human will is the real god of our lives, and "sinners prayers" can be misleading in that respect.

ubicaritas said:

I see it as potentially introducing religious vanity that glorifies the human will. If salvation is ultimately down to our choice, then the human will is the real god of our lives, and such prayers can give false assurances.

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So reaching out to grab the hand of a life guard to pull you out of the water from your being lost at sea without a boat for days translates into you saving yourself?

Surely you did not go back and celebrate how you grabbed onto your rescuer's hand while ignoring the rescuer. Nobody normal does that. When I received Jesus as my Savior of my own free will, I was not thankful for my own free will choice in how I saved myself, but I was thankful for Jesus because He saved me when I repented of my sins. He forgave me. He died for me. He does the saving once we respond to Him. So there is no glory in yourself. God has already provided salvation. We have to respond and He then cleanses us. Salvation also does not stop there, either. We have to continue to abide in Christ and His good ways (By His Word). Jesus saves us also from not only forgiving us of our past sins, but He also saves us from a life of sin, too. For Jesus was manifested to destroy the works of the devil.


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Jason0047 said:

Emotions are a part of life. While loving with actions are good and essential to the faith, we are also not a bunch of vulcans, either. Smiling, being kind, and loving is good. I cannot imagine God's Kingdom in being a place full of vulcans where people were not happy.

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Not everybody appreciates an effusive style of emotionality or sentimentality common in American evangelical churches. It just depends on the culture and what a culture considers spiritual.

As Light of the East pointed out, a great deal of this is down to western culture and its particular prejudices and values. People are diverse, not everybody experiences strong emotions as being synonymous with happiness. Some cultures value serenity more than strong emotions. The Orthodox even have a term for this, apatheia.

Jason0047 said:

So reaching out to grab the hand of a life guard to pull you out of the water from your being lost at sea without a boat for days translates into you saving yourself?

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Not a reasonable comparison because we are talking about God here, not a lifeguard. It's more apt to say your were already dead, floating in the water.

ubicaritas said:

Not everybody appreciates an effusive style of emotionality or sentimentality common in American evangelical churches. It just depends on the culture and what a culture considers spiritual.

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If the same people are crying in church every week, then there is a problem. You can tell genuine emotion versus those who are just being fake. It is not wrong to break emotionally before God. In fact, God's Word encourages it. If your church or culture is not that way naturally, we have to realize that God's ways are higher than our ways.

You said:

As Light of the East pointed out, a great deal of this is down to western culture and its particular prejudices and values. People are diverse, not everybody experiences strong emotions as being synonymous with happiness. Some cultures value serenity more than strong emotions. The Orthodox even have a term for this, apatheia.

Click to expand...

I am not saying that one cannot express happiness in silence. But God did give us laughter for a reason, too. God gave us the ability to smile, too. God gave us moments to genuinely be happy openly. There is nothing wrong with that. It is not just a Western thing but a human thing. If your culture is vulcan, I would encourage you to ask God if that is normal. Ask God to bring out your emotions in His timing and place. Emotions are normal and they should not be hid before God and your fellow brethren. Do a study on the different emotions in God's Word. Read a ton of Christian articles on the subject. See where God takes you with it, my friend.


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ubicaritas said:

Not a reasonable comparison because we are talking about God here, not a lifeguard. It's more apt to say your were already dead, floating in the water.

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Not at all. God told Cain that he had a choice to either sin or do good. Jesus desired to gather Jerusalem as hen would gather it's chicks underneath it's wings but they would not let Him. Revelation says, "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." (Revelation 22:17). How can one freely take the water of life (salvation that Jesus talked about in John 4) if they are not able to do so? Does not make any sense.


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Reformed or Lutheran theology has the answer there. God's commands do not imply ability, because of the sinfulness found deep in the human condition. Sin is less about our choices as primary, and more about our subconscious desires being misguided from the start. So even our desire to be good or holy is tainted by the subconscious working of our sinful condition. We do not deserve salvation as a result, even through the cooperation of our will, instead God freely gives it to those who believe. This leads to a completely different spirituality than the folk-Arminianism of much of American evangelicalism, which has alot to do with the spirit of humanism and American consumerism and self-reliance. But it's not particularly biblical.

The proper response isn't merely to say a sinner's prayer, it's to thank God and praise God, and then go about your vocation loving your neighbor. I love how our churche services end with the dismissal, usulaly it depends on the liturgical season/holiday in question, "Go with God's Spirit to serve the poor" (Pentecost) or "Go and proclaim the good things God has done for you" (Gerasene Demoniac).

jimmyjimmy said:

What is the proper response to the proclamation of the gospel? What do we ask of an unbeliever when we proclaim the gospel to him?

Do we ask him to say a particular prayer, e.g., the "sinners prayer"?

Do we ask him to "invite Jesus into his heart"?

If in a church setting, do we ask him to raise his hand or come forward for prayer?

What's the very first thing you tell, or ask of, someone after you present him with the gospel?

Click to expand...

Ephesian 3:17

That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love

Just to note that it is scriptural that Christ lives in our hearts. This verse says it is by faith, so in a sense when we give our lives to Christ we are inviting Him into our hearts.

What I do is lead them in a prayer. If they have understood the gospel and they want to respond to it I think the best thing to do is to put them in touch with God, and then put them in touch with the body of Christ by helping them to find a church or fellowship which will disciple them.

Friend-of-Jesus said:

According to the Bible, all one has to do is to believe. It's inside the heart. Before baptisms, in the Bible the Apostles would ask if they believed or not, that's all. I think it must be very simple. Churches really complicate things, way beyond what they ever were in the Bible

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Yes, certain churches really do complicate things. The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16). It's just that simple. Those who repent "change their mind" and believe the gospel are saved.

The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation. The gospel simply sets forth Christ crucified, buried and risen as the Savior of all who believe (trust) in His finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation.

jimmyjimmy said:

Forgot a couple:

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day."

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."

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People who come to Christ, already have the new heart being already born again.

3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” So you can not understand that Christ is the Son of God with understanding unless you are born again first.

If you can not see it, then it will just be foolishness to you, you must be born again first to receive Christ as Lord. And you can not say Jesus Christ is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. So He must enable you to believe, actually cause you to believe.

1 Peter 1:20-21New King James Version (NKJV)
20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you

21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

The reason Christ came was to save His sheep, His people from their sins. And to give them everlasting eternal life so that they can dwell with God forever, not be left in Abraham's bosom a part of sheol or hell, or hades. Christ is the doorway to God.

ubicaritas said:

Reformed or Lutheran theology has the answer there. God's commands do not imply ability, because of the sinfulness found deep in the human condition. Sin is less about our choices as primary, and more about our subconscious desires being misguided from the start. So even our desire to be good or holy is tainted by the subconscious working of our sinful condition. We do not deserve salvation as a result, even through the cooperation of our will, instead God freely gives it to those who believe. This leads to a completely different spirituality than the folk-Arminianism of much of American evangelicalism, which has alot to do with the spirit of humanism and American consumerism and self-reliance. But it's not particularly biblical.

The proper response isn't merely to say a sinner's prayer, it's to thank God and praise God, and then go about your vocation loving your neighbor. I love how our churche services end with the dismissal, usulaly it depends on the liturgical season/holiday in question, "Go with God's Spirit to serve the poor" (Pentecost) or "Go and proclaim the good things God has done for you" (Gerasene Demoniac).

Click to expand...

Context. When Jesus said, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:" (John 6:44), He was telling a crowd of people who were more interested in the physical bread that Jesus could provide and not the spiritual bread. These were not people who were seeking for the spiritual bread or spiritual life of Jesus. So you cannot make this verse mean that people who are seeking after spiritual life cannot do so. They wanted Jesus to be a King here on this Earth. But they were not seeking the Father's true way or path with Jesus. Jesus is saying they cannot come to Him on their own terms. They were not doing this.

"The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise." (Psalms 51:17).

Broken spirit. These people were not broken in spirit; And nor did they have a contrite heart. They could choose to have these things. For if an unbeliever can realize his sin in regards to his family, then there is nothing preventing Him in doing the same with God. Yes, it is true, God draws men. Without that drawing we could not come to Him. But Scripture says Christ draws all men unto Him (John 12:32). God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9). Jesus stands at the door of person's heart and knocks (Ephesians 3:17, Revelation 3:20).

So what is stopping people?
God? No.
Uncontrollable Total Depravity? No.
Their heart has waxed gross because of sin and they have chose to close their eyes.

But there is hope. They can respond to God's drawing and see with their eyes and hear with their ears.

"For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them." (Matthew 13:15).

This is not God's forced saved appointed time they should see and hear. It is any time they should choose to see and hear.


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Danthemailman said:

Yes, certain churches really do complicate things. The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16). It's just that simple. Those who repent "change their mind" and believe the gospel are saved.

The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation. The gospel simply sets forth Christ crucified, buried and risen as the Savior of all who believe (trust) in His finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation.

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Dear Dan:

Well, belief is more than just having a mental acknowledgment or picture of the person of Jesus Christ as one's Savior. One must believe in the Jesus as presented in the Bible. For if you believed in a Jesus that told you to do wrong things, then that would not be the Jesus of the Bible. The Jesus of the Bible commands His followers to obey Him. That is the Jesus of the Bible.

Yes, it is true. Jesus saves. However, He does not only save us by what He did on the cross alone (Although that is where it starts or begins), but He saves us also from our sins by working in our hearts and lives so as not to justify sin or evil. Jesus came to set the captives free. Jesus was manifested to destroy the works of the devil. Jesus is the source of a person's salvation (1 John 5:12). So they have to abide in Jesus. Remember, Paul said to the Corinthians to prove that Christ was in them unless they were reprobate. A way we can have an assurance in knowing Christ is in finding that we are keeping His commandments (1 John 2:3). He that says he knows Him (Jesus) and does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in Him. For if a person abides in Christ (who is the source of life and salvation), then good fruit of Christ and or God will be evident in their life. They would have naturally cooperated with Jesus because He is their Lord and Master. Remember the words of Jesus. He said, "If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." (Matthew 16:24).

If that doesn't do much for you, then I encourage you to pray over the following verses:

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (James 2:17).
"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).
"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "
(1 Timothy 6:3-4).
"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).
"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).
"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).
"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).
"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).
"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).
"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).
"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).
"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).
"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

And there are of course many more verses like these, as well.

Now, if you think a believer cannot walk uprightly, well here some verses that show otherwise:

Jesus says,

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 5:16).

Jesus also says,

"You give glory to my Father when you produce a lot of fruit and therefore show that you are my disciples." (John 15:8 GW).

And Peter says,

"Be careful to live properly among your unbelieving neighbors. Then even if they accuse you of doing wrong, they will see your honorable behavior, and they will give honor to God when he judges the world." (1 Peter 2:12 NLT).

Paul says,

"That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" (Philippians 2:15).

Hope this helps.
And may God bless you, Dan.

Sincerely,

~ Jason.


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Jason0047 said:

Dear Dan:

Well, belief is more than just having a mental acknowledgment or picture of the person of Jesus Christ as one's Savior. One must believe in the Jesus as presented in the Bible. For if you believed in a Jesus that told you to do wrong things, then that would not be the Jesus of the Bible. The Jesus of the Bible commands His followers to obey Him. That is the Jesus of the Bible.

Click to expand...

Saving belief is more than mere "mental assent" belief in the existence and historical facts about Christ. Saving belief trusts in Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. The demons "believe" that "there is one God" (James 2:19) but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. In other words, the demons do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and are not saved (Acts 16:31).

Yes, it is true. Jesus saves. However, He does not only save us by what He did on the cross alone (Although that is where it starts or begins), but He saves us also from our sins by working in our hearts and lives so as not to justify sin or evil. Jesus came to set the captives free. Jesus was manifested to destroy the works of the devil. Jesus is the source of a person's salvation (1 John 5:12).

Click to expand...

There are 3 tenses to salvation. 1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (Romans 5:1 - justification) 2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (2 Corinthians 2:15 - ongoing sanctification) 3. we will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (Romans 8:30 - glorification).

So they have to abide in Jesus. Remember, Paul said to the Corinthians to prove that Christ was in them unless they were reprobate.

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We prove that we are His by abiding in Christ.

A way we can have an assurance in knowing Christ is in finding that we are keeping His commandments (1 John 2:3). He that says he knows Him (Jesus) and does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in Him. For if a person abides in Christ (who is the source of life and salvation), then good fruit of Christ and or God will be evident in their life. They would have naturally cooperated with Jesus because He is their Lord and Master. Remember the words of Jesus. He said, "Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." (Matthew 16:24).

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This is the demonstrative evidence of knowing Christ and being His disciple.

If that doesn't do much for you, then I encourage you to pray over the following verses:

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (James 2:17).
"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).
"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "
(1 Timothy 6:3-4).
"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).
"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).
"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).
"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).
"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).
"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).
"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).
"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).
"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).
"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).
And there are of course many more verses like these, as well.

Oh, and here are verses on the error of Christians saying they cannot walk uprightly:

Jesus says,

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 5:16).

Jesus also says,

"You give glory to my Father when you produce a lot of fruit and therefore show that you are my disciples." (John 15:8 GW).

And Peter says,

"Be careful to live properly among your unbelieving neighbors. Then even if they accuse you of doing wrong, they will see your honorable behavior, and they will give honor to God when he judges the world." (1 Peter 2:12 NLT).

Paul says,

"That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" (Philippians 2:15).

Hope this helps.
And may God bless you, Dan.

Sincerely,

~ Jason.

Click to expand...

I am all for good works and for practicing righteousness and not sin, as long as one does not abuse these passages of scripture to teach that we are saved by works or sinless perfection. We are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. *It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*

God bless you, Jason

Danthemailman said:

Saving belief is more than mere "mental assent" belief in the existence and historical facts about Christ. Saving belief trusts in Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.

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Well, I was not talking about recognizing certain facts. When I said "having a mental acknowledgment or picture of the person of Jesus Christ as one's Savior." I was saying that if one is just trusting in Christ alone as their Savior (and they are not having any intention of forsaking their sin or doing the right thing as a part of that salvation), then one merely has a picture of Jesus in their mind as their hope without really any kind of transformation (or salvation) from sin in their lives.

You said:

The demons "believe" that "there is one God" (James 2:19) but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. In other words, the demons do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and are not saved (Acts 16:31).

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No. That is not the point James was making. James was making a point about how if one's faith is all belief alone with no works, their faith is dead. For faith without works is dead (James 2:17). This would include the Eternal Security Proponent's belief that they are trusting in the finished work of Christ (and yet not bringing forth any fruit from such a trust in Christ).

You said:

There are 3 tenses to salvation. 1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (Romans 5:1 - justification) 2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (2 Corinthians 2:15 - ongoing sanctification) 3. we will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (Romans 8:30 - glorification).

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But is a believer not saved if they do not go through the Sanctification process (i.e. being saved from the presence of sin)? If not, then why call it a tense of salvation?

You said:

We prove that we are His by abiding in Christ.This is the demonstrative evidence of knowing Christ and being His disciple.

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1 John 2:3 says we can have an assurance in knowing Him if we find that we are keeping His commandments. Not abiding in Christ means one does not have life or salvation (See 1 John 5:12).

You said:

I am all for good works and for practicing righteousness and not sin, as long as one does not abuse these passages of scripture to teach that we are saved by works or sinless perfection. We are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. *It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*

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As for works:
We are not saved by man directed works of own power alone. We are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace. But this also goes hand in hand with the good works of the Lord done through you because He lives inside of you.

Paul was referring to Man Directed Works in Ephesians 2:8-9 and He was referencing how we are initially and ultimately saved. For we are ultimately saved by God's grace. For how does a believer get clean? By doing a good work? No. Most certainly not. They go to God's grace to get cleansed by their confessing their sins to Jesus. But grace does not teach us that we are free from the penalty of the moral law (or the law of love). Nowhere will you find a Scripture that says that. On the contrary, Jesus says that if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven. John says if one hates their brother, they are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. Paul says be not deceived. The unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God. Then Paul lists certain sins to describe who are the unrighteous. Murder, adultery, theft, etc.

You said:

God bless you, Jason

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May the Lord our God bless you, Dan.
And may you please be well.



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Jason0047 said:

Nice commentary on the text I provided. You really convinced me. ...

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Why don't you answer the question instead of being a smart mouth? Why don't we find the very first Christians saying these things. We don't, but you don't want to touch this question with a ten-foot pole because you know it destroys your argument.