About claiming scriptural authority...

Haipule

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Can you write that in plain English now. Lol
LOL! NO! I'm not trying to interpret: just playing show and tell with the Greek grammatical inflection. I translate the Greek grammar keeping the Greek thinking skills of their language intact using English words. I don't translate Greek thinking skills into English thinking skills because that leads to manipulation of the text.

It took me years to learn how to do it. But, by doing so I can hyper-literally translate Greek grammatical inflection with out interpretation or theological prejudice. Just show and tell.

In Greek, the words have been subjected to etymology but, the grammatical inflection is written in stone. Greek is highly inflective and is represented buy the alphabet soup after the root word pinned by the author. For example, ouranos is the Greek word for sky and is often translated as "heaven". I'll give you a list of all the different ways that it is inflected in the Greek text:

ourane ourané ourano ouranō ouranoi ouranoí ouranoì ouranôi ouranōi ouranō̂i ouranois ouranoîs ouranon ouranón ouranòn ouranôn ouranōn ouranō̂n ouranos ouranós ouranòs ouranou ouranoû ouranous ouranoús ouranoùs
 
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PeaceB

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What exactly is the logical fallacy here? There is no FACTUAL error. The established, old Churches of any size - with the sole exception of the Quakers - have a bloody history of murder and oppression since the 1500s. They all justified themselves theologically in killing people by appealing to scripture and theological reason, and they did so from the top, so the very highest officials and theological authorities of each of these churches developed the theology, upheld it, and never renounced it in their day. In our day, they ACKNOWLEDGE the sins of the past, but do not admit their forebears were in clear theological error and promoted outright demonic EVIL by what they taught (burning people alive is demonic evil - it cannot be defended by a real Christian argument).

All of these things are so.

It was the civil authorities that removed the practical power of the churches to enforce their theologies. They did not recant them or repent them - they had the sword stripped from their hands by armed state actors. After the fact, some of them repented of the evil, but they did not repent of the structures of thinking that created the evil.

And they still do not.

The OP asked us to suspend the supremacy of our own personal judgment of things in favor of the "superior" judgment of theological leaders of the Church. My response was no, the fruit they have borne over the centuries has been too bitter.

As the OP was specifically about the need to subordinate one's self to the spiritual authority of a church, rather than relying on one's own inspiration, I used the example of the Quakers - their rich fruit - as proof that the diametrically opposite approach has produced the best fruit over the past 5 centuries.

I didn't spell out each individual step, but there was no logical fallacy in any of it. When Jesus said "You will know them by their fruit", HE was making the direct link between what people DO and what they BELIEVE and GOD. He always said that God judges on what we DO, and that those who follow him will DO as he did.

So, I have their fruit, and I have their APPROACH, which is to individually turn to the Holy Spirit, and then collectively sit together and let the Holy Spirit bring them to a common mind.

That is the very opposite of what the OP suggested, and I said that the fruit of the Quakers versus the bloodshed and crime of the churches who all do it the other way proves, using Jesus' own standard of proof, that the Quakers are right and everybody else is wrong.

That's not a logical fallacy, it's a proof.
I guess I had to spell it out more explicitly.
So I just did.
Correlation does not equal causation. Your basic argument is that A practices B and did bad thing C. X practices Y and did good thing Z. Therefore B causes people do bad thing C, and Y causes people to do good thing Z. For example, Catholics practice infant baptism and burned people at the stake. Quakers practice believer's baptism and have never burned anyone at the stake. Therefore infant baptism leads people to burn others at the stake.
 
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GUANO

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Jesus is the head of the church and His people are His body. Organizations founded and called by men's names are man's and they can believe whatever they want, call themselves whatever they want, and enforce whatever doctrines they want—none of them lead to 'heaven'. Faith in Jesus Christ is salvation and and these days, ignorant and childlike faith is a lot safer than all this 'religious doctrine' floating around. Rich people have time to create temples, write books, and debate about salvation and doctrines on the internet—but they seem to have a much harder time getting into 'heaven'...

Philippians 2:
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.


14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings:


15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;


Romans 14:
5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.


6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.


7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.


8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.


9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.


10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
 
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Haipule

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All the way back to Peter. Correct!
Now, you know I love you Goatee but:

Now Jesus asks His disciples, “yet you-all who-any? me, you-all-are-saying, to-be.

"Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ(Anointed-One), the Son of the living God(thee Son of-thee-God, thee One-always-living)." Jesus replied, "Blessed(makarios-wealthy, prosperous, fortunate) are you, Simon Bar(Hebrew = son) Jonah(Aramaic = dove, Son of John), because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but(-rather) My Father who is in heaven(thee Father of-me Thee in thee skies). "I also say to you that you are Peter(petros, Rock, “Rocky”, nominative masculine singular), and upon(on) (to-)this [thee-tE, removed dative feminine singular definite article] rock(petra, dative feminine singular) I will build My[thee] church(ekklEsian, called-out, accusative feminine singular); and the gates of Hades will not overpower it(her). Matt 16:13-18 NASB

Some may argue but, Peter was not a girl and did not wear silly hats! The key is in verse 17, "flesh and blood not revealed(apekalupsen, aorist active indicative, third person singular verb) to you", therefore, it is a revelation(apokalupsis, nominative, singular, feminine noun) from God. Therefore, the "petra"(feminine) that Jesus is going to build upon, and is now building upon, is the "revelation"(feminine) by God to "Petros"(masculine) which "Petros" spoke to Jesus and revealed to us, "You are thee Anointed-One, thee Son of-thee God, thee One-always-living" which is an apokalupsis, feminine noun, revelation from God.

After Jesus was raised from the dead-ones, Jesus never once addressed Peter as “The Rock”. In fact, He addressed him only as Simon.
 
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thesunisout

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Did you know that though you consider doing so when confronted by the challenging theology of others pious, you actually undermine and falsify them by patronizing their faith and position.

This actually leads to the opposite of what you probably thought, you're helping the secularization of Christianity all together.

If theology falls into the fallpit where there's no room for challenges and/ or need for good reasons to uphold doctrine and normative theology without being ostracized, then in the end Christianity will end up as a private matter, a faith where everyone claim orthodoxy in their interpretation of scripture and no theology is open for discussion.

If all Christians saw theology this way then we'd face a completely privatised and secular, subjective religion.

The reason why this is the case?
If no-one's allowed to question any part of what constitutes your faith in God then the door into a fruitful theological discussion is forever closed.

So, to all you in here (and there are several of you) who seek to toss your own subjective interpretation of scripture on others and do your best to strangle discussion by claiming superior insight in scripture.

You end up in that ditch, you run the errand of the world, a world who seek to undermine Christianity and shatter the faithful and spreading them around, cut of the rest of the Christian world. The world wants to see Christianity torn apart and privatised to the level where even evangelizing people will be ilegalised.

Sola Scriptura with every man as interpreter can easily be the end of Christianity as a cultural and moral voice in a increasingly anti Christian world.

Galatians 1:8-9
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Do you agree with Paul here that someone preaching another gospel should be cursed?
 
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Blade

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Stabat Mater...hmm if intelligence is what your looking for, after.. you have to look past me and the one in me that also sits at the right hand of the Father. Now.. forgive me.. simple is all I can do. A verse comes to mind now.. to not think of our selfs more highly then we should. You know like someone thats just a dishwashers.. to treat that job as if there was no better job.

So its called doubt. I say this all the time and.. Jesus is REAL! He quoted some man named David..to a fallen angel. So.. people need to read it and.. make a choice.. Man wrote it or God did. And how much time do you gather is going to take before MAN figures out GOD? Yeah.. never. Why do you think He said.. to be like a Child? Because they BELIEVE! Read it.. and believe.. there are SOME other books out there.. that give more praise to MAN that are not HIS words. Ask Him.. Hes REAL yes or no?

Its all starts by seeking 1st the kingdom of GOD and HIS righteousness. Keep doing it by mans ways.. mans knowledge and.. nothing will ever happen. It will just lead to more confusion and error. To debate sure.. but.. believers? We say JESUS is lord but them ...who do you think we hurt? Man? Some group? One body.. many tents. Not the answer your looking for. If one gathered all the knowledge of man.. a child would be wiser. And that person could be 80y studied all their life.. and still be a baby in Christ..

See.. GOD.. the Father of our LORD Yeshua Christ..made it simple..very simple. Ask HIM.. JESUS IS REAL! Its HIS way.. not through some GROUPS way..
 
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Stabat Mater dolorosa

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Galatians 1:8-9
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Do you agree with Paul here that someone preaching another gospel should be cursed?

Who has said anything about the preaching of a different gospel?
 
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Stabat Mater dolorosa

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Stabat Mater...hmm if intelligence is what your looking for, after.. you have to look past me and the one in me that also sits at the right hand of the Father. Now.. forgive me.. simple is all I can do. A verse comes to mind now.. to not think of our selfs more highly then we should. You know like someone thats just a dishwashers.. to treat that job as if there was no better job.

So its called doubt. I say this all the time and.. Jesus is REAL! He quoted some man named David..to a fallen angel. So.. people need to read it and.. make a choice.. Man wrote it or God did. And how much time do you gather is going to take before MAN figures out GOD? Yeah.. never. Why do you think He said.. to be like a Child? Because they BELIEVE! Read it.. and believe.. there are SOME other books out there.. that give more praise to MAN that are not HIS words. Ask Him.. Hes REAL yes or no?

Its all starts by seeking 1st the kingdom of GOD and HIS righteousness. Keep doing it by mans ways.. mans knowledge and.. nothing will ever happen. It will just lead to more confusion and error. To debate sure.. but.. believers? We say JESUS is lord but them ...who do you think we hurt? Man? Some group? One body.. many tents. Not the answer your looking for. If one gathered all the knowledge of man.. a child would be wiser. And that person could be 80y studied all their life.. and still be a baby in Christ..

See.. GOD.. the Father of our LORD Yeshua Christ..made it simple..very simple. Ask HIM.. JESUS IS REAL! Its HIS way.. not through some GROUPS way..

I distinctly made it clear that there's a difference between trusting God like a child and that's how we all can get saved and to seek God for his own sake, for the sake of getting to know him more in-depth.

You postulate a absurd either or mentality that is mostly found in small sects with anxiety of exposing their theology cause they deep down realize that it won't hold if faced with criticism.

Amos 8:11 comes to mind.

Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD.

Isn't part of being thirsty for God's words to be interested in understanding the depth of it to a greater extent that what immediately hits your eyes upon reading it?
 
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Vicomte13

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The Society of Friends (Quakers) are hardly unique in their pacifism. Virtually all of the branches of the historic Anabaptists (Mennonites, Amish, Dunkard Brethren, etc.) are pacifists.

But the Quakers are unique in their successful political activism. Unlike the other small pacifist Churches, the Quakers organized themselves in large organizations, colonized and governed a colony in the Americas, and it was the Quaker organization - organized Quakers - who pressed for and ultimately succeeded in getting slavery abolished in the British Empire, and thereby outlawed on the high seas. It was the Quakers, specifically them, with their SOCIETY of Friends, linked together by a commonality of approach - as a community, not as individual churches following a local charismatic leader - who brought the single pricing system to Britain and thence the world, and who were the energized nucleus of the women's suffrage movement.

It wasn't the fact of their pacifism - there are pacifistic orders within the Catholic Church. It wasn't any specific doctrine such as that - the Quakers have very little by way of doctrine. It was the fact that it was a organized society of individuals who, together, individually sought guidance from the Holy Spirit, and wrote to each other in place to place and organized themselves to do so. And it was the fact that the Holy Spirit responded by energizing this Society to a common mind to go do good things.

The OP urged that people suspend their individual judgment and simply submit to the "superior" theological authority of the high theologians of established churches. The argument against that is all of the death and bitter fruit borne by that approach.

Your comment, perhaps unintentionally, reduces the Quakers in particular to a small sect of pacifists, like the Amish for example. Localized. Individual or small community - but not a large established Church.

The Quakers, however, were (and still are) a fairly large established church. Their organization has had significant numbers and reach, and has had a greater effect for the good on the politics of the last three centuries than any other organized Christian religion. And the way THEY traditionally do theology is to meet in silence, without a preacher or a pulpit or a sermon or a Bible reader, open themselves to God, and ask for the Holy Spirit to come. And then when they sense that he has come they rise and speak - in English, not in tongues - whatever the spirit has impressed upon them. And they have found that throughout a meeting house, and then far and wide across the Society in meeting houses all over the place (who historically correspond with each other), the Holy Spirit seems to say the same thing to many different individual minds in separate places.

Then they pray more, together, in silence, on such things until they start to move towards a unified statement. They don't historically vote - that is an assertion of human power - and they don't debate. Their principle has been to wait until the Spirit brings them to unanimity, and then they record what the Spirit has told all of them, and go out and do it, because each has been separately convinced directly by God, in his own soul.

They have not historically relied upon the Bible for arguments, or the "superior learning" of educated theologians. They have relied directly on the Holy Spirit speaking to them personally - again, the very antithesis of what the OP said.

And it has borne incredible fruit. The single pricing system is not a little thing. It's the reason that kids can be sent to the store to shop for their parents. Do that in an Arab Bazaar and they'll come home having spent $15 for a half-gallon of milk. Pennsylvania colony under the Quakers never had a single fight with the Indians, though the Indians DID kill the Scotch-Irish who came to Pennsylvania. The Indians distinguished, rather easily, between the Quakers who treated them each as individual children of God, did not take their land, negotiated with them as equals, and dealt with them as they dealt with each other, and the others, who came with armed force and took what they wanted.

The Quakers in Pennsylvania demonstrated the way that America COULD HAVE BEEN colonized, had the Europeans been good Christians.

The Quakers in Pennsylvania pressed for the outlawing of slavery from the time that it began. They were frustrated under the British rule (as the "right" to own slaves was a "God-given right of Englishmen", according to the Privy Council), but Pennsylvania rapidly abolished slavery with independence.

Of course women could always rise and speak in Quaker meetings, from the very beginning, as the Holy Spirit comes to both women and men. Anybody who sits in a Quaker meeting who is moved by the Holy Spirit to do so can rise and speak. The fruit of this was born in the 19th Century, when Quaker women in America organized, launched and led the women's suffrage movement, starting in Seneca Falls, NY, in 1848.

Simply put, the Quakers are not simply another small local pacifist sect. They are an organized religion that literally came out of nowhere and that has been more important - as an identifiable Christian church - than any other Christian church in LEADING the changes that have greatly affected our society. The abolition of slavery in the British Empire (with all of the influence that had on the rest of the world), women's suffrage, the single price system - these are not little things, they did not "come out of the air" - they came out of the interaction of the Holy Spirit with Quaker minds in Quaker meeting houses. It was the Quakers who led the charge on these things, did it first, set the example, and whose structured meeting organization gave them the experience at organized meeting structures to be able to lead such things. It is not the nature of small charismatic sects to link up via correspondence and form a whole networked church over a vast geographical area. THAT was uniquely Quaker, and that is what gave them such an outsized ability to influence society given their relatively small numbers.

The ideas themselves came directly from God, out of the air as it were. That's what THEY believe, and judging by their fruit, that would seem to be true. And it would indicate that men and women sitting alone and equal, in silence, with neither book nor pulpit purporting to lead them, talking individually directly to God, produce better practical results than the other models. The ability to find unanimity by sitting in silence is particularly interesting.

Quakers cannot be written off, because they are the primary instrument by which slavery was abolished when it was, and women got the vote when they did, and we have the whole retail pricing system that we have.

They are a direct refutation of the top-down obedience that was suggested by the OP, as they are a granularized, individual-up, unanimity-seeking philosophy that has produced better broad and permanent results than the alternatives, with shedding a drop of blood. That's something. It has to be put on the table for consideration. I've put it there, and I'm going to keep slapping away the hands that would try to take it off the table, because it IS pretty uncomfortable to see it there, and realize that IT is the root from which all of the most important modern strides towards human equality came from. The traditional organized Churches, by contrast, were almost invariably forces for conservatism that fought AGAINST those leveling things.

The Catholic Church certainly didn't do black slaves or American Indians any favors, and the Southern Baptists upheld slavery in America as the Mark of Cain! The strongest organized opposition to women's suffrage came from the Catholic Church.

Real world fruit is the way that Jesus said we would know those who followed him. The Quakers have the best of that, among Christian organizations in the past 350 or so years. They did it the way that is most diametrically opposed to what the OP said - which is why I bring them up.

I note that when Vatican II was being organized, a commission of the Catholic Church specifically went to meet with, work with and seek to understand the Quakers, precisely because the Quaker concept of the "Covered Meeting" where a roomful of people without a leader, each listening to the Holy Spirit moving each other to speak, ultimately comes to unanimity, without a vote and without debates. This was an ideal towards which the organizers of Vatican II strove - to have a council were God really spoke and brought the Church together. Whether that happened or not is a subject for debate. I would say that the fruit of Vatican II has been pretty good, all in all. Certainly I am able to in good conscience be a Catholic thanks to specific doctrines and approaches that came from that Council.

In this way, though, the Quaker example was specifically sought out by the Catholic Church itself, in its highest theological structures, as a thing to be modeled, and ideal to be sought out and incorporated as much as possible, so that the Church could come together, covered by God, and reach a consensus that the participants themselves each felt were moved by God in them personally.

That's pretty hard for Catholics to do, but the POINT is that they recognized that what the Quakers do is what they WANTED to have happen at Vatican II, so they specifically went to the Quakers to see HOW they did it, because there was no working tradition of how to run a Church Council in 1962. The last one hadn't been for over 100 years, and before that there had not been one for 400...and the Church was decidedly not eager to have authoritarian councils such as Vatican 1 and Trent had been.

I'm not telling everybody to go become a Quaker. I AM pointing out that the Quaker approach, individual-talking-to-God and then organized UP from the granular individual, has borne demonstrably better fruit since it came into the world than the other Christian examples. So much so that the heads of my own Church, the Catholics, most hierarchical and authoritarian of all, specifically studied the Quakers as the model of what they WANTED for Vatican II. And Vatican II wasn't perfect, but it was certainly very good.

Personally, from the evidence of the fruit they have borne into the world from their interactions with the Holy Spirit, I would say that the Quaker individual-up approach bears demonstrably superior fruit to all of the other top-down approaches, and I would say that a "return to traditional authority" is the best way to - unintentionally - kill the Church. It's been tried over and over and it doesn't work. The Quaker approach works better, is kinder, humbler, and much more respectful of the individual man and woman.
But it sure is aggravating to small time politicians and petty tyrants, and those who want to move fast and be in charge, all that.

It belongs on this thread, this discussion, because it's the answer to the OP's question: should we turn upwards for answers and unity? Sure. But as individuals, turning upward to God directly. God, then, will inspire each of us separately towards the same things, and we will find natural unity with one another whom God has so moved. Putting the authority in top-down learned theologians will get you men and women bound to stakes and burnt alive. We know that, because it did. It failed. Repeatedly. It doesn't work, and men will walk away from the Church and let the Church die rather than subordinate themselves to men who are just not up to the job. Because really, NOBODY is up to the job. But God is up to the job, and God is heard clearest and best when he speaks to the individuals he made, through the spirit.

Bottom up, not top down. The Quakers prove it works better. Vatican 2 proves it works better even for Catholics.
 
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Norbert L

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No you didn't get it.
Did I mention Rome even once?, no I didn't.

This is a jab at those who spread the sheep and a alarm bell to those who suffer under their own insecure faith combined with a pinch of pride.

It doesn't have to be Rome, but as you can read off of my OP in order to keep total secularization of our religion from getting a flat out victory we need to entrust the theologians through the church, the professionals who actually knows what they're doing when interpreting scripture in the original language.

If our theology is rubbing you of then choose a different church, but don't fall into pride and believe yourself to be the ultimate theologian and judge.

If you don't like Rome, then seek the Methodists, the Anglicans, the Lutherans or any other church.
Theology is only half of the equation, the other half is interpersonal. There will always be men in this present world who will seek to have a following after themselves as Paul foresaw and mentioned in Acts. Christianity as a whole began to take it's baby steps long before and prior to the establishment of orthodoxy towards licentiousness as Jude points out. Present today in large part Christianity as one united political entity is impotent and is more or less what the book of Judges speaks about, when every man did what is right in his own eyes. And I have no doubt, just like in those days, Jesus is still standing at the right hand of God, who is able to raise up men who seek Him and follow the narrow path no matter how disjointed and unorganized Christianity seems to be.

Besides when looking back at the history of orthodoxy, it wasn't as good as it gets made out to be either. All we get to deal with is the right here and now and I believe what the prophet Isaiah said, "Remember not former things, and look not on things of old. Behold I do new things, and now they shall spring forth, verily you shall know them: I will make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert." Isaiah 43:18 can also be relevant to Christianity today.
 
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amariselle

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But the Quakers are unique in their successful political activism. Unlike the other small pacifist Churches, the Quakers organized themselves in large organizations, colonized and governed a colony in the Americas, and it was the Quaker organization - organized Quakers - who pressed for and ultimately succeeded in getting slavery abolished in the British Empire, and thereby outlawed on the high seas. It was the Quakers, specifically them, with their SOCIETY of Friends, linked together by a commonality of approach - as a community, not as individual churches following a local charismatic leader - who brought the single pricing system to Britain and thence the world, and who were the energized nucleus of the women's suffrage movement.

It wasn't the fact of their pacifism - there are pacifistic orders within the Catholic Church. It wasn't any specific doctrine such as that - the Quakers have very little by way of doctrine. It was the fact that it was a organized society of individuals who, together, individually sought guidance from the Holy Spirit, and wrote to each other in place to place and organized themselves to do so. And it was the fact that the Holy Spirit responded by energizing this Society to a common mind to go do good things.

The OP urged that people suspend their individual judgment and simply submit to the "superior" theological authority of the high theologians of established churches. The argument against that is all of the death and bitter fruit borne by that approach.

Your comment, perhaps unintentionally, reduces the Quakers in particular to a small sect of pacifists, like the Amish for example. Localized. Individual or small community - but not a large established Church.

The Quakers, however, were (and still are) a fairly large established church. Their organization has had significant numbers and reach, and has had a greater effect for the good on the politics of the last three centuries than any other organized Christian religion. And the way THEY traditionally do theology is to meet in silence, without a preacher or a pulpit or a sermon or a Bible reader, open themselves to God, and ask for the Holy Spirit to come. And then when they sense that he has come they rise and speak - in English, not in tongues - whatever the spirit has impressed upon them. And they have found that throughout a meeting house, and then far and wide across the Society in meeting houses all over the place (who historically correspond with each other), the Holy Spirit seems to say the same thing to many different individual minds in separate places.

Then they pray more, together, in silence, on such things until they start to move towards a unified statement. They don't historically vote - that is an assertion of human power - and they don't debate. Their principle has been to wait until the Spirit brings them to unanimity, and then they record what the Spirit has told all of them, and go out and do it, because each has been separately convinced directly by God, in his own soul.

They have not historically relied upon the Bible for arguments, or the "superior learning" of educated theologians. They have relied directly on the Holy Spirit speaking to them personally - again, the very antithesis of what the OP said.

And it has borne incredible fruit. The single pricing system is not a little thing. It's the reason that kids can be sent to the store to shop for their parents. Do that in an Arab Bazaar and they'll come home having spent $15 for a half-gallon of milk. Pennsylvania colony under the Quakers never had a single fight with the Indians, though the Indians DID kill the Scotch-Irish who came to Pennsylvania. The Indians distinguished, rather easily, between the Quakers who treated them each as individual children of God, did not take their land, negotiated with them as equals, and dealt with them as they dealt with each other, and the others, who came with armed force and took what they wanted.

The Quakers in Pennsylvania demonstrated the way that America COULD HAVE BEEN colonized, had the Europeans been good Christians.

The Quakers in Pennsylvania pressed for the outlawing of slavery from the time that it began. They were frustrated under the British rule (as the "right" to own slaves was a "God-given right of Englishmen", according to the Privy Council), but Pennsylvania rapidly abolished slavery with independence.

Of course women could always rise and speak in Quaker meetings, from the very beginning, as the Holy Spirit comes to both women and men. Anybody who sits in a Quaker meeting who is moved by the Holy Spirit to do so can rise and speak. The fruit of this was born in the 19th Century, when Quaker women in America organized, launched and led the women's suffrage movement, starting in Seneca Falls, NY, in 1848.

Simply put, the Quakers are not simply another small local pacifist sect. They are an organized religion that literally came out of nowhere and that has been more important - as an identifiable Christian church - than any other Christian church in LEADING the changes that have greatly affected our society. The abolition of slavery in the British Empire (with all of the influence that had on the rest of the world), women's suffrage, the single price system - these are not little things, they did not "come out of the air" - they came out of the interaction of the Holy Spirit with Quaker minds in Quaker meeting houses. It was the Quakers who led the charge on these things, did it first, set the example, and whose structured meeting organization gave them the experience at organized meeting structures to be able to lead such things. It is not the nature of small charismatic sects to link up via correspondence and form a whole networked church over a vast geographical area. THAT was uniquely Quaker, and that is what gave them such an outsized ability to influence society given their relatively small numbers.

The ideas themselves came directly from God, out of the air as it were. That's what THEY believe, and judging by their fruit, that would seem to be true. And it would indicate that men and women sitting alone and equal, in silence, with neither book nor pulpit purporting to lead them, talking individually directly to God, produce better practical results than the other models. The ability to find unanimity by sitting in silence is particularly interesting.

Quakers cannot be written off, because they are the primary instrument by which slavery was abolished when it was, and women got the vote when they did, and we have the whole retail pricing system that we have.

They are a direct refutation of the top-down obedience that was suggested by the OP, as they are a granularized, individual-up, unanimity-seeking philosophy that has produced better broad and permanent results than the alternatives, with shedding a drop of blood. That's something. It has to be put on the table for consideration. I've put it there, and I'm going to keep slapping away the hands that would try to take it off the table, because it IS pretty uncomfortable to see it there, and realize that IT is the root from which all of the most important modern strides towards human equality came from. The traditional organized Churches, by contrast, were almost invariably forces for conservatism that fought AGAINST those leveling things.

The Catholic Church certainly didn't do black slaves or American Indians any favors, and the Southern Baptists upheld slavery in America as the Mark of Cain! The strongest organized opposition to women's suffrage came from the Catholic Church.

Real world fruit is the way that Jesus said we would know those who followed him. The Quakers have the best of that, among Christian organizations in the past 350 or so years. They did it the way that is most diametrically opposed to what the OP said - which is why I bring them up.

I note that when Vatican II was being organized, a commission of the Catholic Church specifically went to meet with, work with and seek to understand the Quakers, precisely because the Quaker concept of the "Covered Meeting" where a roomful of people without a leader, each listening to the Holy Spirit moving each other to speak, ultimately comes to unanimity, without a vote and without debates. This was an ideal towards which the organizers of Vatican II strove - to have a council were God really spoke and brought the Church together. Whether that happened or not is a subject for debate. I would say that the fruit of Vatican II has been pretty good, all in all. Certainly I am able to in good conscience be a Catholic thanks to specific doctrines and approaches that came from that Council.

In this way, though, the Quaker example was specifically sought out by the Catholic Church itself, in its highest theological structures, as a thing to be modeled, and ideal to be sought out and incorporated as much as possible, so that the Church could come together, covered by God, and reach a consensus that the participants themselves each felt were moved by God in them personally.

That's pretty hard for Catholics to do, but the POINT is that they recognized that what the Quakers do is what they WANTED to have happen at Vatican II, so they specifically went to the Quakers to see HOW they did it, because there was no working tradition of how to run a Church Council in 1962. The last one hadn't been for over 100 years, and before that there had not been one for 400...and the Church was decidedly not eager to have authoritarian councils such as Vatican 1 and Trent had been.

I'm not telling everybody to go become a Quaker. I AM pointing out that the Quaker approach, individual-talking-to-God and then organized UP from the granular individual, has borne demonstrably better fruit since it came into the world than the other Christian examples. So much so that the heads of my own Church, the Catholics, most hierarchical and authoritarian of all, specifically studied the Quakers as the model of what they WANTED for Vatican II. And Vatican II wasn't perfect, but it was certainly very good.

Personally, from the evidence of the fruit they have borne into the world from their interactions with the Holy Spirit, I would say that the Quaker individual-up approach bears demonstrably superior fruit to all of the other top-down approaches, and I would say that a "return to traditional authority" is the best way to - unintentionally - kill the Church. It's been tried over and over and it doesn't work. The Quaker approach works better, is kinder, humbler, and much more respectful of the individual man and woman.
But it sure is aggravating to small time politicians and petty tyrants, and those who want to move fast and be in charge, all that.

It belongs on this thread, this discussion, because it's the answer to the OP's question: should we turn upwards for answers and unity? Sure. But as individuals, turning upward to God directly. God, then, will inspire each of us separately towards the same things, and we will find natural unity with one another whom God has so moved. Putting the authority in top-down learned theologians will get you men and women bound to stakes and burnt alive. We know that, because it did. It failed. Repeatedly. It doesn't work, and men will walk away from the Church and let the Church die rather than subordinate themselves to men who are just not up to the job. Because really, NOBODY is up to the job. But God is up to the job, and God is heard clearest and best when he speaks to the individuals he made, through the spirit.

Bottom up, not top down. The Quakers prove it works better. Vatican 2 proves it works better even for Catholics.

I have a question:

How did/do any of the Quakers actually know it's the Holy Spirit they're hearing from?
 
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Stabat Mater dolorosa

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I have a question:

How did/do any of the Quakers actually know it's the Holy Spirit they're hearing from?

I suspect a high level of subjectivity in that department...
 
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amariselle

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I suspect a high level of subjectivity in that department...

I agree. I think it is quite dangerous to suggest that we can or even should simply set aside the word of God and all just gather together and wait for the "Holy Spirit" to speak directly to us. We are in a spiritual battle and Satan can and does masquerade as an "angel of light" and his servants as "servants of righteousness."

If we have no standard to go by, and no way to "test the spirits", no matter how "good" they may seem, we could be opening ourselves up to deception.
 
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Goatee

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Now, you know I love you Goatee but:

Now Jesus asks His disciples, “yet you-all who-any? me, you-all-are-saying, to-be.

"Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ(Anointed-One), the Son of the living God(thee Son of-thee-God, thee One-always-living)." Jesus replied, "Blessed(makarios-wealthy, prosperous, fortunate) are you, Simon Bar(Hebrew = son) Jonah(Aramaic = dove, Son of John), because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but(-rather) My Father who is in heaven(thee Father of-me Thee in thee skies). "I also say to you that you are Peter(petros, Rock, “Rocky”, nominative masculine singular), and upon(on) (to-)this [thee-tE, removed dative feminine singular definite article] rock(petra, dative feminine singular) I will build My[thee] church(ekklEsian, called-out, accusative feminine singular); and the gates of Hades will not overpower it(her). Matt 16:13-18 NASB

Some may argue but, Peter was not a girl and did not wear silly hats! The key is in verse 17, "flesh and blood not revealed(apekalupsen, aorist active indicative, third person singular verb) to you", therefore, it is a revelation(apokalupsis, nominative, singular, feminine noun) from God. Therefore, the "petra"(feminine) that Jesus is going to build upon, and is now building upon, is the "revelation"(feminine) by God to "Petros"(masculine) which "Petros" spoke to Jesus and revealed to us, "You are thee Anointed-One, thee Son of-thee God, thee One-always-living" which is an apokalupsis, feminine noun, revelation from God.

After Jesus was raised from the dead-ones, Jesus never once addressed Peter as “The Rock”. In fact, He addressed him only as Simon.

Guess Jesus only had to call him Rock once!
 
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amariselle

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I often think that many people try to look too deeply into the meanings in scripture. They dissect it.

We should probably be like children when we read it.

Yes and no, as we do need to "rightly divide the word of truth."
 
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Goatee

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Yes and no, as we do need to "rightly divide the word of truth."

Well, I truly think that many dissect it too much. They pull bits out of context, they try and interpret bits to suit their own needs, they read it blindly etc etc.
 
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amariselle

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Well, I truly think that many dissect it too much. They pull bits out of context, they try and interpret bits to suit their own needs, they read it blindly etc etc.

I'm sure that can happen, though careful study should not be discouraged.
 
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Vicomte13

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Dude! "Far beyond your own?" How do you know this?

I've been studying theology and the autographed languages for decades! Longer then most clergy have been alive. And I consider my own book the greatest commentary on the bible ever written to date.

I have no moral opinion on science. I've also been studying many sciences for years including theology which should be the science of God and not the showcase of man's goofy ideas.

I've been translating for years! Here is an example of what I do:

“About the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, " ELI, ELI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?" that is, "MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?" Math 27:46 NASB

Let’s look at just the underlined words: first we have the nominative masculine vocative singular: the'e = God!

Then we have the genitive 1st person singular, personal/progressive(ownership) pronoun: mou = of-me/mine. Then these words are repeated (idiom of strong entreaty).

God! of-Me, God! of-Me,...

Then we have the conjunction: hina = that(purpose), usually establishing a purpose clause.

God! of-Me, God! of-Me, that(purpose)...

Then we have the accusative neuter singular, interrogative(begs a question)/indefinite(anything, anyone) pronoun: ti = why?-anything>...

In Greek, the entire population, or large segment, is always in the masculine gender. Masculine groups are masculine. Female groups are feminine. Whereas, a smaller mixed group is always neuter.

God! of-Me, God! of-Me, that(purpose) why?-anything>...

Then we have the accusative 1st person singular, enclitic personal/possessive pronoun: me = <mine.

God! of-Me, God! of-Me, that(purpose) why?-anything> <mine... Not "stuff"--people! His associates, family, friends and disciples.

Then we have the 2nd person singular, aorist active indicative compound verb: egkatelipes. Which is first the prefixed preposition: en = in, prefixed to a verb usually connotes (continuing)in.

Then we have the proposition: kata = down(from), which is a two terminus word where the authority is up and the action is down.

Then we have the verb: leipO = desert, abandon, leave, leave as destitute.

God! of-Me, God! of-Me, that(purpose) why?-anything> <mine You-(continuing)in-down(from authority)-leave-destitute*

By virtue of the enclitic personal/possessive pronoun me, the enclitic to ti, there is no way this should have been translated as, "WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME"!

Jesus is not a wimp crying for himself! He is crying for His own possession--the people He loved dearly! Just like David, whom Jesus is quoting in Psalm 22:1, whom is crying for his people Israel and not himself!

2,000yrs later and no one has taught this? I think it's cool!

So, should it be "God! My God! Why have you forgotten us?"
 
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I agree. I think it is quite dangerous to suggest that we can or even should simply set aside the word of God and all just gather together and wait for the "Holy Spirit" to speak directly to us. We are in a spiritual battle and Satan can and does masquerade as an "angel of light" and his servants as "servants of righteousness."

If we have no standard to go by, and no way to "test the spirits", no matter how "good" they may seem, we could be opening ourselves up to deception.

Abolished slavery. Equal rights of women. Fair pricing in transactions. You know them by their fruits.

Now please compare the fruits of the OTHER churches, the ones with the formal theologians, during those same time periods. Why should we trust your interpreters of the Bible, who have burnt people alive? Why should we trust your theological authorities, who have burnt people alive. Your fruit is rotten, so THEREFORE your beliefs must also be rotten. You don't listen to spirits, don't trust them, so you listen to men, and follow them under banners to commit mass murder and conquest.

The rotten fruit proves you're wrong, and that we were wrong.
The good fruit proves they're right.
 
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