What's the Positive to Your Negative?

Jane_the_Bane

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Christianity has implemented atrocious morality throughout the ages, always pointing to the supposedly unassailable authority of their hypothetical deity to implement it.
The only way we've ever been able to grow out of these was not by appeals to the authority of Scripture (which supports slavery, the death penalty, and the second class status of women), but through argument, reason, and whatever ethical impulses we've been supplied with by our heritage as a social species.

Humanitarian efforts have more often been hindered instead of supported by claims to biblical authority.
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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Long story short: there's plenty of deities claiming to represent the One Universal Morality (or more precisely: people claiming to talk/write for these entities). None of them lives up to what could be expected from timeless superbeings, and all of them are deeply steeped in culture-specific mores associated with the cultures that first introduced these myths. Even (and especially) the Christian entity, who at one point supposedly inspired people to treat rape along the lines of property damage, didn't think anything of keeping slaves and beating them severely as long as they weren't incapacitated for more than three days, and supposedly inspired a convert to tell women that they ought to shut their trap and have all of those difficult things explained to them by their husbands, and also that they better cover their hair with a nice headscarf, or else expect to be shorn.
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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Even the oft-cited Decalogue is a major disappointment:
it spends almost half of its list on YHVH's ego, omits vital rules such as "do not enslave each other" or "do not force yourself upon others against their will", and lumps the wives in with other material possessions men could own.
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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I suppose you *could* try to dissociate YHVH from all that jazz and reduce the Christian god's actual morality to "love your enemies" and the symbolism of the cross. But that'd once more place the actual work of figuring out how to conduct ourselves best on *us*.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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@Jane_the_Bane , all of that is still dependant on assuming a Real Morality to be able to judge that the later forms are more in accord than the earlier ones you so derisively dismiss. This is in direct contradiction to your thesis you presented in an earlier thread and your Einstein quote here.

Christianity says Jesus brings the Law to fulfillment. Jesus says to Love God and love thy neighbour as thyself, encompasses all of the Law. Now He is God Himself, you understand. Therefore, anything He said is far stronger Biblical support than anything else.

Anyway, slavery is debatable. Onesimus' case argues for it to be immoral, as does Jesus' words. This is far stronger Biblical support than Levitical laws. Regardless, as I told you before, it is ON ACCOUNT of Christianity that Slavery was abolished, not in spite of it. Secularism was at most lukewarm in support, like Voltaire, or downright opposed. Christianity was the driving force for this moral improvement, in the form of Abolitionist Catholic and Protestant groups in England and New England.

The Bible itself represents the evolution of its morality. So to complain its initial stages are not perfect, is ludicrous. Jesus completes the Prophets, then takes it a step further. As when Jesus prohibits divorce, except for adultery, in spite of OT pronouncements allowing it, or when He heals on the Sabbath, or disavows an eye for an eye.
Jesus; who freed the woman caught in Adultery, he who is without sin cast the first stone; who turns the other cheek; who dined with publicans; and spoke to the Samaritan woman at the well; is a very good moral compass by any standard. He is YHWH, as He Himself says that "before Abraham I AM". So no, we need not figure out Morality ourselves, we merely look to Jesus. Often we may disagree with one another, but the moral choice will rear its head - as Gamaliel said, "If it is of God, it will prosper". If you step back, if you allow the detritus of ourselves, our times and our societies to settle, we can usually see it quite clearly, alas usually in retrospect. We often know what we ought to do, but create all manner of ways to muddy the waters and excuse ourselves therefrom.
 
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Chesterton

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I understand. But we're back to this, your adding way more mental concepts from what one reads and comparisons to human feelings and emotions than what I'm able to do. How much of any of that have you actually experienced while sitting in God's presence? The only way I've seen any of it expressed is in the actions of people. That's especially true with the angry and jealous stuff. Anyway, I honestly do understand the Christian perspective for why it's used. It's just when it comes to God I reject it.

If I'm adding mental concepts it's because Christianity is not found in simply reading a book. It's experienced through worship in the Church, through the wisdom of the Church and of the saints, through prayer and meditation and fasting and how you live.
The Divine can not be anthropomorphized.

I don't know what you believe. Do you believe the Divine has consciousness and will?
 
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Ygrene Imref

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Ok, but I hope you realize none of that was atheism. That's just a problem you were having. I'm glad you were able to recognize it eventually, but it's not about atheism.

Everyone has problems. You are trying to separate lack of/belief in something beyond you from you. The "problems" everyone has is connected to what you believe in, what you think you know, and how you apply those things to your life.

I think the OP purpose has been missed: this isn't about comparing belief systems, and their importance and/or dangers. It (to me) was an attempt to hear first (virtual) hand about what atheists and agnostics hold dear. We know it isn't God, so what is it?

That is why I gave my own testimony, and repeatedly mentioned the uniqueness of the situation (i.e. it happened to me.) But, I was an atheist, and then I was agnostic because I entertained different philosophies and mysticism in practice.

Everything I said was connected to me treating my own cache of intellect as an idol. That was precisely because I was an atheist (first,) and no god came close to me - even if I did believe in them beyond mythology.

If you thought my testimony was not about how my atheism was connected to my problems, then you missed the point of my entire point. Everything, again, that I said that was an unsavory experience was categorically because of my theistic views. In my case (as I said at least three times) this was what happened - and it was consequential of my theistic views.
 
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Cearbhall

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Everyone has problems. You are trying to separate lack of/belief in something beyond you from you.
Yes, I am. Metaphysical beliefs, or a lack thereof, are largely irrelevant to any problems that I might have in my life.

It seems you had a different set of problems, and so you personally found that making a change in what you believed helped you. It's fantastic that you figured that out about yourself! I'm happy for you, but don't project. What's right for you is by no means the solution for every other individual. The problems you were having are not problems that are inherent to atheism.
 
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dlamberth

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I don't know what you believe.
I think in many ways we are talking past each other because of the different ways we approach the Divine.

Do you believe the Divine has consciousness and will?
I'm a Panentheist. Everywhere I look, there God is. Which means that I'm unable to separate Christ, the Light of God, from the very fabric of everything there is in this Creation. It's from that perspective that my answer to your question is "Yes". But I suspect the will I'm saying yes to is a different kind of will than what your asking about.

I have a question for you. Do you believe that our souls are an activity of God?
 
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Chesterton

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I think in many ways we are talking past each other because of the different ways we approach the Divine.


I'm a Panentheist. Everywhere I look, there God is. Which means that I'm unable to separate Christ, the Light of God, from the very fabric of everything there is in this Creation. It's from that perspective that my answer to your question is "Yes". But I suspect the will I'm saying yes to is a different kind of will than what your asking about.

I'm also a panentheist, a Palamite (or "weak") panentheist, which is a position supported by scripture and Early Church Fathers.
I have a question for you. Do you believe that our souls are an activity of God?
Everything, the very particles of which we and everything is composed, may be said to be an activity of God. I'm tempted to say "yes" but also to say "no" because I may not understand what you mean by "activity".
 
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Ygrene Imref

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Yes, I am. Metaphysical beliefs, or a lack thereof, are largely irrelevant to any problems that I might have in my life.

It isn't metaphysics; it is existentialism.

It seems you had a different set of problems, and so you personally found that making a change in what you believed helped you. It's fantastic that you figured that out about yourself! I'm happy for you, but don't project. What's right for you is by no means the solution for every other individual. The problems you were having are not problems that are inherent to atheism.

1) I didn't project; I repeatedly said the experience I posted up is unique to me.

2) I didn't figure out on my own

3) It doesn't matter what my problems were, you are making an error in thinking your system of beliefs, guidance and goals are separate from you. You may not believe in a god, but you believe in something - whatever keeps you going in life. And, your problems are directly related to your beliefs, goals and systemic value system. They are not separate. It was not separate for me, and it isnt for other humans.

Again, the OP point is being missed: we are talking about the superego - theism or not. My superego was my own god, but I did not believe in any gods. Everyone's problems and triumphs are related to their superego. You are no different, you are just trying to separate that from you to make an argument. It isn't how it works.
 
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dlamberth

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I'm also a panentheist, a Palamite (or "weak") panentheist, which is a position supported by scripture and Early Church Fathers.
Are you a contemplative?

Everything, the very particles of which we and everything is composed, may be said to be an activity of God. I'm tempted to say "yes" but also to say "no" because I may not understand what you mean by "activity".
As seen from your tempted "yes" answer, what is it about the soul that makes you answer that way.
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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Sadly, forum rules establish that I have to discuss with my mouth taped partially shut, otherwise I could point to concrete examples where "What would Jesus do" is so unspecific as to result in exactly what I predicted (that is, we've got to figure it out on our own), or else leads to Christians sticking to Leviticus and embracing a very culture-specific, subjective stance.

Let's look at Jesus's prohibition of divorce instead. Without looking at the historical context, this looks like a perfectly horrible demand: so, your partner abuses you, your relationship is dysfunctional, or your partner is a controlling paranoiac? Tough luck, that ship has sailed. You are their property for life.
In fact, the legal status quo of married couples (and wives in particular) was ATROCIOUS, directly based upon this passage.

I grant that this issue looks less damning in its historical context, where it is a rebuke against patriarchal husbands discarding their wives like old smartphones, and women existing in total socio-economic dependence .
So, in the end, today's response is not the one Jesus gave in the 30s CE, since things have changed too much. And again, it is up to us to figure it out. Scripture is little help.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Sadly, forum rules establish that I have to discuss with my mouth taped partially shut, otherwise I could point to concrete examples where "What would Jesus do" is so unspecific as to result in exactly what I predicted (that is, we've got to figure it out on our own), or else leads to Christians sticking to Leviticus and embracing a very culture-specific, subjective stance.

Let's look at Jesus's prohibition of divorce instead. Without looking at the historical context, this looks like a perfectly horrible demand: so, your partner abuses you, your relationship is dysfunctional, or your partner is a controlling paranoiac? Tough luck, that ship has sailed. You are their property for life.
In fact, the legal status quo of married couples (and wives in particular) was ATROCIOUS, directly based upon this passage.

I grant that this issue looks less damning in its historical context, where it is a rebuke against patriarchal husbands discarding their wives like old smartphones, and women existing in total socio-economic dependence .
So, in the end, today's response is not the one Jesus gave in the 30s CE, since things have changed too much. And again, it is up to us to figure it out. Scripture is little help.

Jane,

I agree with your general premise that later Christianity gets the 'divorce thing' wrong whereas N.T. Christianity actually admonishes men to honor their wives and not feel free to discard them like a used piece of tissue-paper. But, I can't say that I agree that the N.T. Scripture, taken as a whole in context and with the application of educated hermeneutical acumen (as it should be), is of little help. Likely, the truth of the matter is that Jesus didn't think He needed to spell it all out; in fact, the implication in saying "...such and such law was given because of your hardness of heart" seems to tell us that men could generally have figured this out with their God given brains if they weren't so stubborn and heard hearted toward women.

If we take what Gerda Lerner, PhD has to say in her book, The Creation of Partriarchy, and maybe at some points despite what she says, I don't think we can actually accuse the O.T. men of treating women in any 'worse' ways than what the numerous pagan nations of old were already doing and had been doing for quite some time, ways that extended into even more ancient eras, as far as we can tell. No, as far as we can tell, if one was a wife of purity in Old Israel-- as she had learned to be so from the time of being a little girl-- that women had a good place in society (assuming also that the entire nation was actually 'doing' what it was supposed to do in Gods' eyes, i.e. not being sinful, something they apparently found it difficult to do).

And if we take what Orlando Patterson, PhD has to say in his book, Freedom: Volume 1, about how the initial motifs of "freedom from sin" in the N.T. played out in history over the last 2,000, we can't really knock the teachings of Jesus, Paul, and Peter off the table; their teachings were at least likely helpful in some ways to the initial development and causes of freedom in Western society.

I mean, how dense does one have to be to not understand the implications and social outworking of the following verses from Matthew 20:20-25?:

20 Then the mother of Zebedee’s sons came to Jesus with her sons and, kneeling down, asked a favor of him.

21 “What is it you want?” he asked.

She said, “Grant that one of these two sons of mine may sit at your right and the other at your left in your kingdom.”

22 “You don’t know what you are asking,” Jesus said to them. “Can you drink the cup I am going to drink?

“We can,” they answered.

23 Jesus said to them, “You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father.

24 When the ten heard about this, they were indignant with the two brothers.

25 Jesus called them together and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. 26 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 27 and whoever wants to be first must be your slave— 28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
To me, this is one of those "well, duh?" passages which people seem to very easily ignore, and they (even "the Church") have done so quite profusely over the past 2,000 years since these words were delivered. :doh:One doesn't have to have a PhD to understand this: be a servant to other people; don't oppress them or make slaves of them. Obviously, in its fullest manifestation, this would apply to all social contexts, even those between men and women, and husbands and wives.

So, I think we can see that if people could apply the specifics of Jesus' admonishment where He says, "Not so with you," the world would be, could be, and could have been, a better place. In this regard, His words, even His simple words, are helpful.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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Sadly, forum rules establish that I have to discuss with my mouth taped partially shut, otherwise I could point to concrete examples where "What would Jesus do" is so unspecific as to result in exactly what I predicted (that is, we've got to figure it out on our own), or else leads to Christians sticking to Leviticus and embracing a very culture-specific, subjective stance.

Let's look at Jesus's prohibition of divorce instead. Without looking at the historical context, this looks like a perfectly horrible demand: so, your partner abuses you, your relationship is dysfunctional, or your partner is a controlling paranoiac? Tough luck, that ship has sailed. You are their property for life.
In fact, the legal status quo of married couples (and wives in particular) was ATROCIOUS, directly based upon this passage.

I grant that this issue looks less damning in its historical context, where it is a rebuke against patriarchal husbands discarding their wives like old smartphones, and women existing in total socio-economic dependence .
So, in the end, today's response is not the one Jesus gave in the 30s CE, since things have changed too much. And again, it is up to us to figure it out. Scripture is little help.
This is a bit disingenuous.

You cannot take Jesus as your moral compass and then pick and choose what precepts you follow. Jesus teaches to love your neighbour, to forgive, to not dwell on wrongs, etc. Therefore, if a married couple are trying to live a moral life according to His example, then such abuses should not occur. Even if they do on account of our sinful nature, the chances of adultery occuring are anyway high, as Jesus says that if you look at another with lust then you have already commited Adultery. The fact is that married life is difficult and only the effort that comes with permanence will make it bear fruit, but that is worth all that effort. For it will give a true relationship, becoming one flesh, to love one another as Christ does.

You have a significant misunderstanding though. We cannot 'figure out' anything ourselves, for Morality needs to be an attempt to reach a standard, an absolute, a real morality, or it merely becomes my preference - therefore not moral at all. You have yet to explain how 'morality' can even be achieved, so your argument largely amounts to denying its existence.
 
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Chesterton

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Sadly, forum rules establish that I have to discuss with my mouth taped partially shut,...
After all these years, finally, something we agree on. Yes it is quite sad that your mouth is taped partially shut.

:D just kiddin', luv ya, Jane
 
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ubicaritas

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So, in the end, today's response is not the one Jesus gave in the 30s CE, since things have changed too much. And again, it is up to us to figure it out. Scripture is little help.

Maybe it's less of an issue for me because I don't primarily think of the Bible as a rulebook for human life... that's more of a Neo-Calvinist approach to the Scriptures.

My own denomination comes up with very general guidelines on moral issues and leaves alot to the individual. We engage in moral deliberation as a community, and consider our choices in light of Jesus' ethic of love, and scientific evidence and human reason.

I also agree with what Quid said about marriage. Jesus teachings give us the wisdom to deal with the ups and downs of human life, with forgiveness being a very necessary antidote to the perceived failings of other people. Secular culture's frequent narcissism makes it difficult for anybody to engage in interpersonal relationships beyond a superficial level.
 
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Chesterton

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Are you a contemplative?

Well I'm contemplative, I'm not a contemplative. :) I don't really recognize that as a special category of person, although I think Catholics might, I'm not sure.
As seen from your tempted "yes" answer, what is it about the soul that makes you answer that way.

When you say "activity" of God you might mean what we describe as the "energies" of God, but I'm not sure. My belief is that we shouldn't blur the line between Creator and created, so the soul, while it may be special, is still part of the creation of the Divine, not of the same essence as the Divine itself. But if you're interested I have this video which is a pretty good explanation of this topic generally:

 
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ubicaritas

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It's cool that video mentions Luther in discussing panentheism, and it is indeed true that Luther's theology is "weak panentheism". However, we Lutherans are less philosophically inclined than the Eastern Orthodox, and Luther tended to describe this reality in poetic rather than philosophical terms. Nevertheless, panentheism is the only perspective that makes sense of divine transcendence and immanence. It is also true that western theology has tended to over-emphasize transcendence, with dangerous consequences in how we approach what it means to be spiritual or religious.
 
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Ygrene Imref

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Jane,

I agree with your general premise that later Christianity gets the 'divorce thing' wrong whereas N.T. Christianity actually admonishes men to honor their wives and not feel free to discard them like a used piece of tissue-paper. But, I can't say that I agree that the N.T. Scripture, taken as a whole in context and with the application of educated hermeneutical acumen (as it should be), is of little help. Likely, the truth of the matter is that Jesus didn't think He needed to spell it all out; in fact, the implication in saying "...such and such law was given because of your hardness of heart" seems to tell us that men could generally have figured this out with their God given brains if they weren't so stubborn and heard hearted toward women.

If we take what Gerda Lerner, PhD has to say in her book, The Creation of Partriarchy, and maybe at some points despite what she says, I don't think we can actually accuse the O.T. men of treating women in any 'worse' ways than what the numerous pagan nations of old were already doing and had been doing for quite some time, ways that extended into even more ancient eras, as far as we can tell. No, as far as we can tell, if one was a wife of purity in Old Israel-- as she had learned to be so from the time of being a little girl-- that women had a good place in society (assuming also that the entire nation was actually 'doing' what it was supposed to do in Gods' eyes, i.e. not being sinful, something they apparently found it difficult to do).

And if we take what Orlando Patterson, PhD has to say in his book, Freedom: Volume 1, about how the initial motifs of "freedom from sin" in the N.T. played out in history over the last 2,000, we can't really knock the teachings of Jesus, Paul, and Peter off the table; their teachings were at least likely helpful in some ways to the initial development and causes of freedom in Western society.

I mean, how dense does one have to be to not understand the implications and social outworking of the following verses from Matthew 20:20-25?:

20 Then the mother of Zebedee’s sons came to Jesus with her sons and, kneeling down, asked a favor of him.

21 “What is it you want?” he asked.

She said, “Grant that one of these two sons of mine may sit at your right and the other at your left in your kingdom.”

22 “You don’t know what you are asking,” Jesus said to them. “Can you drink the cup I am going to drink?

“We can,” they answered.

23 Jesus said to them, “You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father.

24 When the ten heard about this, they were indignant with the two brothers.

25 Jesus called them together and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. 26 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 27 and whoever wants to be first must be your slave— 28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
To me, this is one of those "well, duh?" passages which people seem to very easily ignore, and they (even "the Church") have done so quite profusely over the past 2,000 years since these words were delivered. :doh:One doesn't have to have a PhD to understand this: be a servant to other people; don't oppress them or make slaves of them. Obviously, in its fullest manifestation, this would apply to all social contexts, even those between men and women, and husbands and wives.

So, I think we can see that if people could apply the specifics of Jesus' admonishment where He says, "Not so with you," the world would be, could be, and could have been, a better place. In this regard, His words, even His simple words, are helpful.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

I used to think much of what [The Word of] God said was some literary exaggeration of spiritual or physical things.

It really is very simple; we just complicate it - sometimes just because we are too cynical and stubborn to accept the simplicity of what God asks of us (the correct way.)

I think about the argument against God's alleged cruelty concerning laws on killing, and then I recall how most all people would have no problem killing a person, for example, for touching their child. There was a recent issue in which a father was arrested for killing a man he caught in the act of molesting his dauthter in Texas. It was simply an "issue," and not a felony because no one would serve on the jury. The department was forced to drop the indictment because people demanded it.

It was already in the Law to follow the right way from God.
 
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