What is the "big picture" or point of scripture, or what is the whole of scripture trying to tell...

Dartman said:

It really doesn't matter how you and I phrase our disagreement..... as long as we are civil, and honest, and don't stoop to slander, backbiting or name calling ... in my opinion. It bothers me that we haven't achieved harmony FAR more than which words you select to express that disagreement.
I totally agree with your rejection of the Orthodox Creed. I do NOT agree with much of ANYTHING written in the second and third centuries either!! They seem to be precisely what Paul was warning about in Acts 20, and 2 Thess 2, and what John was warning about in 2 John and Revelation.

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I cannot really use dates as a measurement. The Pastorals (1-2 Timothy and Titus) were written after Pauls death at the beginning of 2nd century *according to scholars. And the Gospel of John (100-120AD). People of the time did not have the education (reading and writing) we experience today. So oral was the tradition. Didn't Luke write Pauls letters? Luke was highly educated.

When you go by timelines, Thomas could have been the first Gospel written. And then "maybe not". The early catholic "church" fathers were prevalent in the second century especially towards it's end. They are the influence of the catholic thought that brought the eventual Nicene Creed.

In my eyes, Paul was the greatest "apostle". The disciples heard Jesus physically. Paul never met Jesus physically and relied totally on the Holy Spirit. But to say that books in the second and third centuries were not written by inspiration of the Holy Spirit (in the presbyters who wrote them) doesn't make them false, IMO. If they glorify God, and marry to an understanding of Gospel truth, the Spirit will reveal it. I found that the Gospel of Thomas and Philip pulls the message of Christ to a higher understanding. The Canon Gospels light up. Pauls words light up. And other books in the Bible take a back seat.

The first 3 centuries, many Christians preferred death over relinquishing their belief. Their faith was so strong.

I don't like being limited to where the Spirit guides. I like reading of the times, and trying to understand the division. This helps:

Early Christian Writings: New Testament, Apocrypha, Gnostics, Church Fathers

Phantasman said:

I cannot really use dates as a measurement. The Pastorals (1-2 Timothy and Titus) were written after Pauls death at the beginning of 2nd century *according to scholars. And the Gospel of John (100-120AD). People of the time did not have the education (reading and writing) we experience today. So oral was the tradition. Didn't Luke write Pauls letters? Luke was highly educated.

When you go by timelines, Thomas could have been the first Gospel written. And then "maybe not". The early catholic "church" fathers were prevalent in the second century especially towards it's end. They are the influence of the catholic thought that brought the eventual Nicene Creed.

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Again, I totally agree with your assessment that the writings of the "church fathers" currently available, are the influences which eventually manifested as the trinitarian creeds. There are a hints that their doctrine was NOT the majority Church position. The Apostolic Creed is NOT trinitarian, in fact I support every tenet in that creed, while I do NOT endorse the concept of "creeds". I reject creeds for the exact same reason I reject the "early church fathers" ..... neither are Scripture, and the Scripture contains "all things that pertain unto life and Godliness".

It appears "James" was the first NT book written, and John's writings were the last, written about 92AD. All of the other books in the NT were written between those two.
I reject the other opinions expressed by the Skeptics/Scholars.

Dartman said:

Not one sermon recorded in the Scriptures agrees with this paragraph. In fact, Marilyn, MOST of the phrases and titles you have used here are man made, not scripture.
The Scriptures NEVER use the phrase "God the Son" ... it's a trinitarian invention.
The Scriptures only use the Phrase "King of Heaven" once, and that was a remark made by Nebuchadnezzar, about Jehovah, not Jesus.
"King of the Ages" .... never.
"trinity" ........ never.
"third person of ..." ........ Never.
Yes, the Christ was manifested as Jesus of Nazareth, and Jesus absolutely is a man, but the phrase "manifested as a man" is NOT Scriptural, and is an invention to try to express a ludicrous concept, that contradicts Scripture.
Jesus most certainly did "humble himself and became a servant ... in his ministry;
Luke 22:25-27 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
26 But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.
27 For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.
Paul plainly commands us to hold fast to the "Jesus" actually preached by the apostles.
NEVER ....
EVER ....
was a "trinitarian" Jesus preached, to ANY audience in the Scriptures.
By stark contrast, the "Jesus" actually preached is a man from Nazareth, that God exalted to be Lord, Savior, Prince and the Christ.
The "Jesus" actually preached is a Jew, a literal descendant of Eve, Abraham, Judah, David and Mary.
The "Jesus" actually preached is the man that was murdered in Jerusalem, and spent 3 days in hell/the grave, and then Jehovah/YHVH God, his God, raised him from the dead, to eternal life.

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Hi Dartman,

Now why did the leaders of Israel decide to kill Jesus. What was their reason?

Marilyn.

Marilyn C said:

Hi Dartman,

Now why did the leaders of Israel decide to kill Jesus. What was their reason?

Marilyn.

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Matt 27:17-18 Therefore when they were gathered together, Pilate said unto them, Whom will ye that I release unto you? Barabbas, or Jesus which is called Christ? 18 For he knew that for envy they had delivered him.

Luke 19:14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us..... 27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

John 11:48-52 If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation. 49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all, 50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not. 51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation; 52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

Dartman said:

Matt 27:17-18 Therefore when they were gathered together, Pilate said unto them, Whom will ye that I release unto you? Barabbas, or Jesus which is called Christ? 18 For he knew that for envy they had delivered him.

Luke 19:14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us..... 27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

John 11:48-52 If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation. 49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all, 50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not. 51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation; 52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

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Hi Dartman,

Yes envy was their motive, but they had to have a reason under the law. What was it?

Marilyn.

Marilyn C said:

Hi Dartman,

Yes envy was their motive, but they had to have a reason under the law. What was it?

Marilyn.

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John 19:12 ... "If you let this man go, you are no friend of Caesar. Anyone who claims to be a king opposes Caesar."

Dartman said:

John 19:12 ... "If you let this man go, you are no friend of Caesar. Anyone who claims to be a king opposes Caesar."

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So Dartman...let`s back track a few verses -

`Therefore when the chief priests and officers saw him, they cried out saying, "Crucify Him, crucify Him!" Pilate said to them, "You take Him and crucify Him for I find not fault in Him."

The Jews answered Him, "We have a law, and according to our law He ought to die, because He made Himself the Son of God." (John 19: 6 & 7)

So we see that the leaders of Israel believed that Jesus should die because He called Himself the Son of God, making Himself equal with God.

Do you believe the leaders were right?

Marilyn.

Neogaia777 said:

They claim blasphemy, for making himself equal to God, or the Father God...

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News flash, they were wrong.

Jesus corrected them... "I said I am the SON of God".

The same error is ....

Still going on today...

Marilyn C said:

So Dartman...let`s back track a few verses -

`Therefore when the chief priests and officers saw him, they cried out saying, "Crucify Him, crucify Him!" Pilate said to them, "You take Him and crucify Him for I find not fault in Him."

The Jews answered Him, "We have a law, and according to our law He ought to die, because He made Himself the Son of God." (John 19: 6 & 7)

So we see that the leaders of Israel believed that Jesus should die because He called Himself the Son of God, making Himself equal with God.

Do you believe the leaders were right?

Marilyn.

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Of course not, neither did Jesus. Again, he corrected their error.

Neogaia777 said:

They claim blasphemy, for making himself equal to God, or the Father God...

Still going on today...

And, Yes, they envied him, just Like Satan does him and us and man... The Father made man, after he made the angels, in such a way that would provoke envy from some of the angels though...

So, it's all a part of the Father's plan from the beginning, there is no escaping that...

God Bless!

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Mmmm Neogaia, thinking on that. Yes I agree concerning the claim of blasphemy but the next point well... God made it all good, however it was vulnerable. That is what God in His foresight knew and thus undergirded it with Himself.

Marilyn.

Dartman said:

Of course not, neither did Jesus. Again, he corrected their error.

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Can you show where Jesus `corrected` their error, please?

Marilyn C said:

Can you show where Jesus `corrected` their error, please?

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Again?
Of course I can.
John 10:33-39

33 "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, "I have said you are gods"? 35 If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came — and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? 37 Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. 38 But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."

John 17:21-22 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

This is really getting boring.... you guys keep bringing up the SAME handful of classic brainwash fodder.

NOT ONE of these verses actually states what you WISH it stated! No Verses Do!!

The clincher here is, trinitarian theory is "another Jesus"... exactly like Paul foresaw.
Your eternal life depends on you rejecting THAT "Jesus", and accepting the "Jesus" actually preached in the Scriptures.

Dartman said:

This is really getting boring.... you guys keep bringing up the SAME handful of classic brainwash fodder.
.

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OK Dartman,

Can you please tell me how you see God? Meaning is He just one, and not like the Godhead we others believe, 3 persons in one.

regards, Marilyn.

Marilyn C said:

OK Dartman,

Can you please tell me how you see God?
Meaning is He just one, and not like the Godhead we others believe, 3 persons in one.

regards, Marilyn.

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Like Jesus said, his Father (Jehovah/YHVH) is the ONLY true God.
Like Paul said, to us there is but ONE God, the Father, and; There is ONE God, and one mediator BETWEEN God and men, the MAN Christ Jesus.
Like Jehovah said,
Isa 42:1-8 Behold, My servant, whom I uphold; My chosen, in whom My soul delighteth: I have put My Spirit upon him; he will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.
2 He will not cry, nor lift up his voice, nor cause it to be heard in the street.
3 A bruised reed will he not break, and a dimly burning wick will he not quench: he will bring forth justice in truth.
4 He will not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set justice in the earth; and the isles shall wait for his law.
5 Thus saith God Jehovah, He that created the heavens, and stretched them forth; He that spread abroad the earth and that which cometh out of it; He that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
6 I, Jehovah, have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thy hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
7 to open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the dungeon, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison-house.
8 I am Jehovah, that is My name; and My glory will I not give to another, neither My praise unto graven images.

Isa 45:5 I am Jehovah, and there is none else; besides me there is no God.

Scripture is the canon of revelations between God and man.
It was to the people, and is now for the people to bring man to God.

Dartman said:

Like Jesus said, his Father (Jehovah/YHVH) is the ONLY true God.
Like Paul said, to us there is but ONE God, the Father, and; There is ONE God, and one mediator BETWEEN God and men, the MAN Christ Jesus.
.

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Thank you Dartman,

Now how does ONE God express love,(faithfulness, kindness, graciousness etc) when He is alone, meaning in eternity past?

Marilyn.

Marilyn C said:

Thank you Dartman,

Now how does ONE God express love,(faithfulness, kindness, graciousness etc) when He is alone, meaning in eternity past?

Marilyn.

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Verse please? Otherwise, you are merely asking for speculation, and I am not interested.
Let me ask you a question;
Why do you cling to a doctrine that contradicts plain and simple Scripture?

Why do you accept this completely illogical, impossible, theory, without a SINGLE commandment asking you to believe it?

Why do you accept a theory that not only is NEVER ... EVER .... explained, preached or stated IN Scripture .. But, this theory absolutely CANNOT be explained using Biblical terms! You MUST resort to invented words and phrases, familiar in pagan philosophy .. but utterly foreign to Scripture?

Why?