Prevenient Grace

Hammster said:

Notice that it doesn't say that many are called, but few respond to the call. You can't come to that conclusion, regardless of how many words you capitalize.

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See Jesus' parable preceding His statement here (Matthew 22:2-10), ... which clearly illustrates that the responses of the invited were the pivotal point on coming into the blessings of the rich man's feast.

Those that responded favorably (accepted) the rich man's invitation were CHOSEN to attend,
while those who declined the rich man's invitation were NOT CHOSEN to attend.

Hammster said:

Foreknown and predestined? In what way?

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Are not the non-elect foreknown and predestined to destruction ?

Hammster said:

If you send and invitation, it's assumed that you are chosen to come. Those that came were gathered.

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But in JESUS' parable, those that declined the invitation were NOT CHOSEN to come (i.e. X'd off of the list of invitees) (Luke 14:24). If they had given the invitation a second thought and shown up, ... they wouldn't have been allowed in.

The same parable as related by Luke ...

15 When one of those reclining with Him heard this, he said to Jesus, “Blessed is everyone who will eat at the feast in the kingdom of God.”

16 But Jesus replied, “A certain man prepared a great banquet and invited many guests. 17 When it was time for the banquet, he sent his servant to tell those who had been invited, ‘Come, for everything is now ready.’

18 But one after another, they all began to make excuses. The first one said, ‘I have bought a field and I need to go see it. Please excuse me.’

19 Another said, ‘I have bought five yoke of oxen and I am going to try them out. Please excuse me.’

20 Still another said, ‘I have married a wife, so I cannot come.’

21 The servant returned and reported all this to his master. Then the owner of the house became angry and said to his servant, ‘Go out quickly into the streets and alleys of the city, and bring in the poor, the crippled, the blind, and the lame.’

22 ‘Sir,’ the servant replied, ‘what you ordered has been done, and there is still room.’

23 So the master told his servant, ‘Go out to the highways and the hedges and compel them to come in, so that my house will be full.

24 For I tell you, NOT ONE of those men who were invited will taste my banquet.’”

Hammster said:

Is there scripture to support that?

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Romans 9

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Hammster said:

Not the same parable.

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Really ???

Then focus on the parable in Luke, I guess ...

Still Jesus' teaching ...

A_Thinker said:

Assuming you are speaking of Romans 8, the passage you speak of starts out by acknowledging God's foreknowledge, leading to predestination of the elect, leading to a call to the elect, leading to justification of the elect, ... and so on ...

Romans 8

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

The passage does not refer to the non-elect in any way ... as to whether they are called ... or not.

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Elect believers are simply believers, there are no non elect believers. There are no special group of elect believers and all the other are ordinary believers.

Peter warns us to not be shortsighted even to blindness, that God chose us in His call and election of us.
That we were cleansed by Him according to His calling and election of us and should be living lives and bearing fruit worthy of our calling and election.

Example
2 Peter 1:9-11New King James Version (NKJV)
9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Another example from Paul, saying he works for the sake of the elect, that they may also obtain salvation, working for the elect was His entire command from God. Peter too, they were told to feed My sheep from the Lord. God is not willing that His elect perish, which is part of why the gospel is reached to the whole world, that His elect will obtain salvation, and all of His elect will obtain salvation, and the rest, the others, will be blinded in their minds by the god of this world, Satan, or blinded by the Lord.

2 Timothy 2:9-11New King James Version (NKJV)
9 for which I suffer trouble as an evildoer, even to the point of chains; but the word of God is not chained. 10 Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

11 This is a faithful saying:

For if we died with Him,
We shall also live with Him.

Example, Romans 11
7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:

“God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”

rjs330 said:

Jesus said he draws all.men unto him.

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The resistance is above. I think that you misunderstand that verse.

DeaconDean said:

It is mine too.

I wasn't meaning to come off "gruff", I just wanted to point out that what you posted is inconsistent.

You don't follow certain theologians from the past, but yet you agree with one, and in fact, the one you agree with is teaching what was taught some 120 years earlier.

And even at that, whether you'll admit it or not, if you attend church today, and listen to your pastor preach, unless your in an area that don't require a PhD before being "hired" as a pastor, somebody had to teach them. They are teaching/preaching somebody else's "theology".

Kinda ironic.

God Bless

Till all are one.

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Phoebe Ann said:

Are you suggesting that we don't go to church or listen to any preachers? I do not agree with Wesley if that's what you thought. But do you disaprove of all preachers because they are men? The apostles were men and Jesus told them to preach. The prophets were men.

Or do you want me to label myself a Calvinist?

1 Corinthians 1
12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

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Please explain what you were trying to tell me.

A_Thinker said:

Assuming you are speaking of Romans 8, the passage you speak of starts out by acknowledging God's foreknowledge, leading to predestination of the elect, leading to a call to the elect, leading to justification of the elect, ... and so on ...

Romans 8

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

The passage does not refer to the non-elect in any way ... as to whether they are called ... or not.

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There is one problem in your post.

At the beginning of verse 29, the is a "conjunction".

The Greek word "eis". In this particular spot, "eis" serves to link v.29 with v.28. And it also answers the question as to why God "foreknew" these people.

They were called/elected first, and because of that, God foreknew them, predestinated them, and justified them.

"to them who are the called according to his purpose. (eis)For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

God Bless

Till all are one.

Phoebe Ann said:

Please explain what you were trying to tell me.

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That you contradict yourself.

Although you may not realize it.

You say you do not follow the theology of those from the Reformation period, but you acknowledge the teaching of John Wesley as far as "Prevenient grace" is concerned.

Whether you realize it or not, you following somebodies "theology", that's all I was trying to say.

God Bless

Till all are one.

DeaconDean said:

That you contradict yourself.

Although you may not realize it.

You say you do not follow the theology of those from the Reformation period, but you acknowledge the teaching of John Wesley as far as "Prevenient grace" is concerned.

Whether you realize it or not, you following somebodies "theology", that's all I was trying to say.

God Bless

Till all are one.

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Thanks so much for explaining.

No, I don't believe in Prevenient Grace nor do I follow Wesley. Common grace is another story. Someone's theology may line up with what I believe, but I base my thoughts on what I see in my Bible and what I think God wants me to believe. No offense to anyone.

Phoebe Ann said:

Thanks so much for explaining.

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NP

God Bless

Till all are one.

Hammster said:

The context of that was not each and every person who ever lived. The context means men from every nation. If it was the former, then all would be saved because in John 6 He says that all who are drawn will come to Him.

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Yes I agree. I am not a universalist.

DeaconDean said:

There is one problem in your post.

At the beginning of verse 29, the is a "conjunction".

The Greek word "eis". In this particular spot, "eis" serves to link v.29 with v.28. And it also answers the question as to why God "foreknew" these people.

They were called/elected first, and because of that, God foreknew them, predestinated them, and justified them.

"to them who are the called according to his purpose. (eis)For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

God Bless

Till all are one.

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Similar to 1 Peter 1:1-2 ... ???

1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To the elect, exiles of the Dispersion throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 chosen by the foreknowledge of God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by His blood:

Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

A_Thinker said:

Similar to 1 Peter 1:1-2 ... ???

1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To the elect, exiles of the Dispersion throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 chosen by the foreknowledge of God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by His blood:

Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

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If you are elect, (God foreknows you as His child), you are chosen by God, ( predestined to come to Christ for salvation and not destruction), to be sanctified (made Holy acceptable in the beloved), by obedience to the gospel of Christ, (your gonna believe in Christ) and sprinkled with His blood. (be forgiven all of your sins and be sealed in the Holy Spirit as a guarantee of your eternal inheritance)