Hypothetical 10 year old who died without being baptized.

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I didn't say meaningless. you said that. makes me wonder why you would say that...

I said everything else was obedience or ritual. You know what else is obedience? Sharing the gospel. Not commiting sin. celebrating communion, etc. But I guess because I say that those things don't save you, you would consider them meaningless.

as for the chanting and rituals and that follow in the other steps. to each their own. they have historical/traditional significance to you. I think I would find them a bit spooky. ;)

I said that because it's a common theme stated in Protestantism about The Church and her sacraments.

How are you going to feel in heaven when the same unchanging unending rituals are front and center?

The rituals of heavenly worship are clearly displayed for us in Revelation. In fact, it's the reason Revelation was included in the canon.

Forgive me...
 
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Acts2:38

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Well, to continue our conversation...

What happens to our hypothetical 10 year old who died without being baptized and remained unrepentant, having been raised by parents who think that everything ought to be "his choice" when he is older.

A point of clarity has been added on post #16.

Forgive me...

I will respond to post # 16 separately.

The "what if" scenario has always been thrown around in this world to "attempt" at putting a monkey wrench in baptism. For some perplexing reason people wish to avoid baptism even though it is quite clear.

One can be correct that attempts to imagine a situation where the rule might be broken does not invalidate the rule. People imagine the possibility of a person believing in Christ but before he can act on it he is killed. "What will happen to the poor man?" they moan. They want someone to say, "he will be saved," so that they can say, "See, you can be saved without baptism!"

"If anyone speaks, let him speak as the oracles of God. If anyone ministers, let him do it as with the ability which God supplies, that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belong the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen" (I Peter 4:11).

What they don't realize is that they are diminishing the power of God. "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance" (II Peter 3:9). If a man turns his heart to God, God is not going to take his life at the last second so as to prevent his salvation. The Lord God is not like that.

I often ask such people, "Can a person be saved with confessing Christ?"

"Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven" (Matthew 10:32-33).

"But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we preach): that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation" (Romans 10:8-10).

"But what," I then ask, "will happen to him if he dies before he has a chance to open his mouth and make a confession?"

And what about repentance? Can a person be saved without changing their life?

"I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish" (Luke 13:3, 5).

"Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before" (Acts 3:19-20).

Now some want to blur the lines and say that faith, confession, and repentance are all the same thing. But I always point out that you believe in your heart, but confession is made with the mouth and repentance means doing things differently. "... that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance" (Acts 26:20). What happens to a fellow who doesn't have a chance to do works befitting repentance?

The answer is, if it ever did happen (and I have more confidence in God than that), then it would be God's decision, and fortunately not mind, but in the meantime, I must teach the will of the Father and He says that hearing the word, faith in Jesus, confession of Christ, repentance from sins, and washing away sins in baptism are all necessary to be saved from sins. Therein is the key problem. People talk about salvation, they see the goal is to get to heaven, but they neglect to see that they being saved from something -- sin! It is as if they think they can be saved from drowning while remaining under the water.

However, we know that the early disciples understood the importance of being saved. When Saul was taught by Ananias, "And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord" (Acts 22:16). When the Philippian jailer wanted to be saved, "So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household." Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized" (Acts 16:31-33). And this even though Acts 16:25 said the events started around midnight.

Why the urgency in obeying God's commands? Because the people knew that the future is uncertain. "Whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then vanishes away" (James 4:14). They did not risk the possibility of not having another opportunity.

"For He says: "In an acceptable time I have heard you, And in the day of salvation I have helped you." Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation" (II Corinthians 6:2).

Frankly, when people truly believe God and are willing to do as He commands, the gap between belief and baptism isn't all that great. The possibility of dying before obeying is slim, and I'm confident that the Lord watches over those who are His.

When the Ethiopian asked, "See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?" The answer was, "If you believe with all your heart, you may" (Acts 8:37-38). There is nothing preventing salvation but a person's own heart.

Now that we covered the "what if" scenario, the specific age you mentioned about a "10 year old".

Obeying God's law
(Acts 5:29) - "But Peter and the apostles answered and said, We must obey God rather than men."

Obeying mans law
(Romans 13:1) - "Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God."
(1 Peter 2:13) - "Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority,"

With these three verses, I have shown that we must submit to man's laws UNLESS they conflict with God's laws.

I find it a rare case where a 10 year old could understand and be in an age of accountability, but I suppose it could happen. If it did happen to be that a 10 year old understands, then the 10 year old should not be hindered by their parents or anyone else to become baptized. If a parent is stopping them, they can and should go behind the parents back to get baptized for the parent is conflicting with God's law attempting to hinder the child's salvation.
 
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Acts2:38

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Let me add this for clarity. All that we see below happens on the same day.

The "liturgical process" of baptism consists of a few steps all done in linear fashion. Some parts are done by the Godparents when the child young. Because the godparent speaks on behalf of the child, sponsors his entrance into the Church and “receives” the child out of the baptismal waters into the Church and cares for his spiritual life, the godparent himself must be a member of the Church.

1. Confession of Faith in Christ and rejection of Satan (At this point the Bishop would begin referring to the person as Christian.)

2. Confession of personal sins. (The Priest is only a witness to the congregation that one has confessed.)

3. Blessed with sanctified oil.

4. Immersed three times in the water in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
Through the act of immersion, the baptized person dies to this world and is born again in the resurrection of Christ into eternal life. He is clothed with the “garments of salvation” symbolized by the white baptismal robe which is the “new humanity” of Jesus himself who is the new and heavenly Adam (See Jn 3, Rom 5, 1 Cor 15). Thus, the words of the Apostle Paul are chanted as the newly-baptized is led in procession around the baptismal font three times as the symbol of his procession to the Kingdom of God and his entrance into eternal life: “For as many as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Alleluia” (Gal 3.27).

5. Chrismation (confirmation)

6. In ancient times a procession was made from the baptistery to the church where the newly-baptized received Holy Communion at the celebration of the "Divine Liturgy" (worship services). In modern times there is no external baptistery and baptism is performed just before Liturgy. The new received partake of communion first.

Forgive me...

"blessed with oil" and being immersed "3 times" for salvation etc etc, I do not find in scripture

This is what I see in scripture to be saved in Christ:

Hear the word – Romans 10:17, Matthew 7:24-27

Believe the word is true and believe in Jesus – Hebrews 11:6, Mark 16:15-16(not faith only), James 2:24, John 12:42

Repent of your sins and transgressions – Acts 2:38, Acts 17:30-31, Luke 13:3

Confess Jesus – Matthew 10:32-33, Acts 8:36-37

Baptism for forgiveness of your sins -
Remain faithful until death – Revelation 2:10

Examples of baptism and conversions:

Jesus’ Baptism – Matthew 3:13-17

Day of Pentecost – Acts 2:22 and 36-47

Samaria – Acts 8:4-13

Ethiopian eunuch – Acts 8:26-39

Paul (Saul) – Acts 9:1-20 and 22:6-16

Cornelius – Acts 10:1-48 and 11:1-18

Lydia – Acts 16:13-15

Philippian jailor – Acts 16:23-34

Many Corinthians – Acts 18:8
 
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JESUS=G.O.A.T

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Well, to continue our conversation...

What happens to our hypothetical 10 year old who died without being baptized and remained unrepentant, having been raised by parents who think that everything ought to be "his choice" when he is older.

A point of clarity has been added on post #16.

Forgive me...

IT depends on if he had enough reasoning, if someone dies without a basic understanding of salvation, and just christianity and salvation they will not be in damnation. But IK a 10 year old for example who goes to a private christian school...has an assistant head pastor as her dad and she knows. But when I was 10 years old I didn't understand it at all...so you never know.


Acts 2:38 said what i'm saying here just in an extended way.

So if you want an extended explanation just read his.
 
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fhansen

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Well, to continue our conversation...

What happens to our hypothetical 10 year old who died without being baptized and remained unrepentant, having been raised by parents who think that everything ought to be "his choice" when he is older.

A point of clarity has been added on post #16.

Forgive me...
He'll be judged based on what he did with whatever he was given. Luke 12:48 applies. In the end he'll be judged on his love, based on whatever opportunities for or obstacles to its blossoming and growth were present. These could include such things as age, knowledge, background and, of course, grace.
 
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Acts2:38

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Baptism does not remove sin, giving your life to Christ does. Until you do that, you aren't worthy of baptism. Baptism is symbolic of the death and resurrection of Jesus. It is a public statement of faith. It comes after you are saved, not before. As for the boy's salvation, only God knows the age of accountability in each of us. Until that time he is innocent because he didn't have the presence of mind to choose.

So you don't believe in Acts 2:38?

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

You don't believe in Mark 16:16?

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

You don't believe Galatians 3:27 and Romans 6:3-4?
Gal.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Rom.
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Baptism does make removal of your sin Acts 2:38 "for forgiveness of sins"

It is for you to be saved AFTER you receive baptism Mark 16:16

You cannot be in Christ UNLESS you are baptized Galatians 3:27 and Romans 6:3-4
 
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woobadooba

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Well, to continue our conversation...

What happens to our hypothetical 10 year old who died without being baptized and remained unrepentant, having been raised by parents who think that everything ought to be "his choice" when he is older.

A point of clarity has been added on post #16.

Forgive me...
Leave the judgment to God.
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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"blessed with oil" and being immersed "3 times" for salvation etc etc, I do not find in scripture

This is what I see in scripture to be saved in Christ:

Hear the word – Romans 10:17, Matthew 7:24-27

Believe the word is true and believe in Jesus – Hebrews 11:6, Mark 16:15-16(not faith only), James 2:24, John 12:42

Repent of your sins and transgressions – Acts 2:38, Acts 17:30-31, Luke 13:3

Confess Jesus – Matthew 10:32-33, Acts 8:36-37

Baptism for forgiveness of your sins -
Remain faithful until death – Revelation 2:10

Examples of baptism and conversions:

Jesus’ Baptism – Matthew 3:13-17

Day of Pentecost – Acts 2:22 and 36-47

Samaria – Acts 8:4-13

Ethiopian eunuch – Acts 8:26-39

Paul (Saul) – Acts 9:1-20 and 22:6-16

Cornelius – Acts 10:1-48 and 11:1-18

Lydia – Acts 16:13-15

Philippian jailor – Acts 16:23-34

Many Corinthians – Acts 18:8

The canon of scripture is the work of The Church. However, Orthodox Christians are not locked in to "scripture only". In fact we don't put 'only' beside any word describing Christianity. Without the Sacramental Liturgy (works) of The Church there would be canon. The scriptures were gathered and placed in order by The Church so that every Church would have copies and all repeating the same thing at any given worship in the calendar year. If traveling, one would not miss any services.

It had never been used as it is today by anyone before the printing press and everyone started reading and giving their ideas about what it all meant. Meanwhile, The Church and the liturgy continue.

Forgive me...
 
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JoeP222w

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What happens to our hypothetical 10 year old who died without being baptized and remained unrepentant, having been raised by parents who think that everything ought to be "his choice" when he is older.

Then God will give him justice because he was unrepentant and apparently did not trust in Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord.

Baptism follows after justification, but Baptism has no salvific power. Baptism is not required for salvation. Baptism is a symbolic profession of faith and following in obedience to Jesus Christ after God's work of grace in the individual.
 
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Then God will give him justice because he was unrepentant and apparently did not trust in Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord.

Baptism follows after justification, but Baptism has no salvific power. Baptism is not required for salvation. Baptism is a symbolic profession of faith and following in obedience to Jesus Christ after God's work of grace in the individual.

That is the western scholastic Protestant point of view all right. It exists only in the west.

Forgive me...
 
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newlightseven

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:Smacks lips::: at yall even entertaining the idea that a 10 year old isn't going to make it. This is what happens when we get caught too much in laws.. and have they done this and have they done that.
 
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JoeP222w

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giving your life to Christ does

Where does the Bible say to "give your life to Christ"? Since God created us, He already owns us. I don't find any apostle telling people to "give your life to Christ", as if the individual is the sovereign owner of their own life.

As for the boy's salvation, only God knows the age of accountability in each of us.

Where does the Bible say that there is such a thing as an "age of accountability"?

Until that time he is innocent

Romans 3:10-12 as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; (11) no one understands; no one seeks for God. (12) All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.”

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

All mankind is born in Adam (i.e. with a sinful nature), no one is born innocent.

he didn't have the presence of mind to choose.

Salvation is of God's sovereign grace, not man's sovereign will. Man does not have autonomous libertarian free will. And man, in and of himself, will never choose God.
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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:Smacks lips::: at yall even entertaining the idea that a 10 year old isn't going to make it. This is what happens when we get caught too much in laws.. and have they done this and have they done that.
:)
Western scholastic Christian theology traps itself. Knowledge of scripture outruns wisdom...

Forgive me...
 
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JoeP222w

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That is the western scholastic Protestant point of view all right. It exists only in the west.

Forgive me...

So the thief on the cross was not saved then, because certainly he was not baptized. That is what you are promoting.

Jesus did not tell the thief on the cross, "Go and get baptized and today you will be with me in paradise."
 
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Acts2:38

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The canon of scripture is the work of The Church. However, Orthodox Christians are not locked in to "scripture only". In fact we don't put 'only' beside any word describing Christianity. Without the Sacramental Liturgy (works) of The Church there would be canon. The scriptures were gathered and placed in order by The Church so that every Church would have copies and all repeating the same thing at any given worship in the calendar year. If traveling, one would not miss any services.

It had never been used as it is today by anyone before the printing press and everyone started reading and giving their ideas about what it all meant. Meanwhile, The Church and the liturgy continue.

Forgive me...

I apologize, but this went right over my head.

Question: Are you saying that the bible is not the only authority when you say "However, Orthodox Christians are not locked in to 'scripture only'."?

I didn't want to assume and I was curious if that is what you are saying.

As for the rest of what you said, I missed the point and I am sorry. Could you rephrase it another way?
 
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JESUS=G.O.A.T

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The canon of scripture is the work of The Church. However, Orthodox Christians are not locked in to "scripture only". In fact we don't put 'only' beside any word describing Christianity. Without the Sacramental Liturgy (works) of The Church there would be canon. The scriptures were gathered and placed in order by The Church so that every Church would have copies and all repeating the same thing at any given worship in the calendar year. If traveling, one would not miss any services.

It had never been used as it is today by anyone before the printing press and everyone started reading and giving their ideas about what it all meant. Meanwhile, The Church and the liturgy continue.

Forgive me...

??? so what are you trying to say here? Just curious sounds like you're saying something...but it's not something you just randomly accuse someone of saying so just want to be sure.
 
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So the thief on the cross was not saved then, because certainly he was not baptized. That is what you are promoting.

Jesus did not tell the thief on the cross, "Go and get baptized and today you will be with me in paradise."

Incorrect. Baptism is our participating in the Easter story.

He most certainly was involved 'first hand' in the death and resurrection of Christ... and I would note that he gave good confession before hand.

His name is Saint Dismas. He is the first Saint to be refereed to as having been baptized in blood.

Forgive me...
 
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