How to undo the Christian deception?

Open Heart

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God in His wisdom stated "do not eat pork" and in another place said it was an abomination. Here is some medical reason not to eat pork. Watch: Removing 10 lbs of Meat Worms From a Bodybuilder’s Colon – MEDCARE
Cook pork properly, and you don't get worms.

I got worms as a child from eating dirt, and yet doctors today say it is precisely because we are too clean that we have problems, that we don't have enough good bacteria and have underdeveloped immune systems.
 
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Devin P

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Cook pork properly, and you don't get worms.

I got worms as a child from eating dirt, and yet doctors today say it is precisely because we are too clean that we have problems, that we don't have enough good bacteria and have underdeveloped immune systems.

Isaiah 66:17
 
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Devin P

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Isaiah is talking to the Children of Israel. What does that have to do with the Gentile Church?

Romans 11:17-24

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

Jesus in Matthew 15:24 -
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Galatians 3:28 -
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

With your faith in Christ, you are grafted into Israel. You are a child of God. And God's only children throughout the bible - were Israel. Christ even said himself, he's only come to save the lost sheep of Israel. This was God's punishment for Israel's disobedience and whoring out - to sift us among the gentiles. And that we would forget his law.

Amos 9:9, and

Hosea 8:8

8Israel is swallowed up: now shall they be among the Gentiles as a vessel wherein is no pleasure.

9For they are gone up to Assyria, a wild ass alone by himself: Ephraim hath hired lovers.

10Yea, though they have hired among the nations, now will I gather them, and they shall sorrow a little for the burden of the king of princes.

11Because Ephraim hath made many altars to sin, altars shall be unto him to sin.

12I have written to him the great things of my law, but they were counted as a strange thing.

In verse 9, a wild ass, or a donkey represents stubbornness, and it's why it says alone. We're too prideful to see we need him. Then it says Ephraim hired lovers, because the offspring has - spiritually speaking - whored themselves out. All of us included.

Then verse 10, the king of princes - Jesus.
 
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Open Heart

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Romans 11:17-24

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

Jesus in Matthew 15:24 -
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Galatians 3:28 -
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

With your faith in Christ, you are grafted into Israel. You are a child of God. And God's only children throughout the bible - were Israel. Christ even said himself, he's only come to save the lost sheep of Israel. This was God's punishment for Israel's disobedience and whoring out - to sift us among the gentiles. And that we would forget his law.

Amos 9:9, and

Hosea 8:8

8Israel is swallowed up: now shall they be among the Gentiles as a vessel wherein is no pleasure.

9For they are gone up to Assyria, a wild ass alone by himself: Ephraim hath hired lovers.

10Yea, though they have hired among the nations, now will I gather them, and they shall sorrow a little for the burden of the king of princes.

11Because Ephraim hath made many altars to sin, altars shall be unto him to sin.

12I have written to him the great things of my law, but they were counted as a strange thing.

In verse 9, a wild ass, or a donkey represents stubbornness, and it's why it says alone. We're too prideful to see we need him. Then it says Ephraim hired lovers, because the offspring has - spiritually speaking - whored themselves out. All of us included.

Then verse 10, the king of princes - Jesus.
These verses are irrelevant to the point.
 
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gadar perets

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Isaiah is talking to the Children of Israel. What does that have to do with the Gentile Church?
Isa 66:15 For, behold, YHWH will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
Isa 66:16 For by fire and by his sword will YHWH plead with all flesh: and the slain of YHWH shall be many.
Isa 66:17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith YHWH.​

So, what you are saying is that this passage only refers to the "Children of Israel" even though it says "all flesh"? Is the "Gentile Church" part of "all flesh"? How is it that YHWH can slay everyone in the world for eating swine's flesh, etc., even though swine's flesh has supposedly been cleansed by Yeshua? The church is allowed to eat such abominations, but the rest of the world can't? You need to rethink your position. And what is a "Gentile Church" anyway? Does Yeshua have two churches, one Gentile that can break Torah and eat abominations and one Jewish that must keep Torah and not eat abominations? Again, rethink your position. Their is one Torah for Jewish and Gentile believers and that Torah is to be written on the hearts and minds of all believers.
 
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RaymondG

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Isa 66:15 For, behold, YHWH will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
Isa 66:16 For by fire and by his sword will YHWH plead with all flesh: and the slain of YHWH shall be many.
Isa 66:17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith YHWH.​

So, what you are saying is that this passage only refers to the "Children of Israel" even though it says "all flesh"? Is the "Gentile Church" part of "all flesh"? How is it that YHWH can slay everyone in the world for eating swine's flesh, etc., even though swine's flesh has supposedly been cleansed by Yeshua? The church is allowed to eat such abominations, but the rest of the world can't? You need to rethink your position. And what is a "Gentile Church" anyway? Does Yeshua have two churches, one Gentile that can break Torah and eat abominations and one Jewish that must keep Torah and not eat abominations? Again, rethink your position. Their is one Torah for Jewish and Gentile believers and that Torah is to be written on the hearts and minds of all believers.
No matter how good and clean you keep your body....no matter how healthy it is...no matter how free of disease it is....it Still will not inherit the kingdom of heaven, and, in the flesh, no man can please God. Why do you feel He cares so much about food you put in these bodies? We hold fast to ideas of what not to eat, while leaving the more important commandments of love out. Love should come first, while not leaving the others out. i see little love in condemnation.
 
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gadar perets

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No matter how good and clean you keep your body....no matter how healthy it is...no matter how free of disease it is....it Still will not inherit the kingdom of heaven, and, in the flesh, no man can please God. Why do you feel He cares so much about food you put in these bodies? We hold fast to ideas of what not to eat, while leaving the more important commandments of love out. Love should come first, while not leaving the others out. i see little love in condemnation.
This is a typical response when a teaching cannot be refuted; attack the messenger rather than message. I do not neglect love, nor do I leave the more important commandments out. I try to live by every word of YHWH that applies to me. However, I will not allow my brothers and sisters to remain in deception and ignorance. Love for them prevents me from remaining silent. You saying I'm condemning them. In reality, I am simply explaining what YHWH has decreed.

As for, "Why do you feel He cares so much about food you put in these bodies?"; He cares because He loves us. He created us and knows what type of good fuel our bodies run on. Swine's flesh and other abominations like shrimp, crabs, lobster, slugs, dogs, maggots, etc., are not good fuel. They are harmful and were never created to be eaten. However, more important than health factors, our Creator is disgusted by us eating them because He knows they defile us.
 
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gadar perets

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Whenever I see this, I know i am speaking to a master of the law. Further discussion would be unfruitful. Continue in your ways until God tells you otherwise.
The only kind of discussion that is fruitful is when both parties discuss Scripture without personal attacks. When you are ready to do that, I am ready to listen.
 
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Devin P

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All I'm saying is the bible tells us not to sin, and at the same time the only definition it has ever given for sin is the breaking of God's law.
No matter how good and clean you keep your body....no matter how healthy it is...no matter how free of disease it is....it Still will not inherit the kingdom of heaven, and, in the flesh, no man can please God. Why do you feel He cares so much about food you put in these bodies? We hold fast to ideas of what not to eat, while leaving the more important commandments of love out. Love should come first, while not leaving the others out. i see little love in condemnation.

I admit he could've been more loving. But I beg of you, I have one question. If I ask it will you answer?
 
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RaymondG

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All I'm saying is the bible tells us not to sin, and at the same time the only definition it has ever given for sin is the breaking of God's law.
Im confused? Who could have been more loving.....Who to you want to ask the question to....and why wouldnt anyone answer?

I admit he could've been more loving. But I beg of you, I have one question. If I ask it will you answer?
 
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Devin P

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The person that could've been more gentle with what they said was the person you were talking to in that message I quoted from you.

The question is this. What does the bible describe as sin? I asked you ahead of time if you would answer the question I ask, because people who are anti-law, seem to be so anti-law, that they won't even answer the question - what does the bible define as sin.

If you know it by heart, or if you can recall a verse or two, or even if you have to google it, just please, answer the question. I am not meaning to sound rude, or arrogant, or odd or any other tone this message could take on, I mean this with sincerity, it's just difficult to convey tone through text.
 
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Dave-W

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All I'm saying is the bible tells us not to sin, and at the same time the only definition it has ever given for sin is the breaking of God's law.
Whaddaya mean the "ONLY definition?" There are more definitions.

[URL='https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+3:23&version=NASB']Romans 3:23[/URL]
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, [trying but falling short]

Romans 14:23b

whatever is not from faith is sin.

James 4:17
Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.
 
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RaymondG

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The person that could've been more gentle with what they said was the person you were talking to in that message I quoted from you.

The question is this. What does the bible describe as sin? I asked you ahead of time if you would answer the question I ask, because people who are anti-law, seem to be so anti-law, that they won't even answer the question - what does the bible define as sin.

If you know it by heart, or if you can recall a verse or two, or even if you have to google it, just please, answer the question. I am not meaning to sound rude, or arrogant, or odd or any other tone this message could take on, I mean this with sincerity, it's just difficult to convey tone through text.
I dont get offended easy. And I find nothing wrong with what you are saying or the other poster you mentioned. Lastly, I will not place any character judgement on you, based on what you write or believe.

I am not anti-law and wouldnt tell you or anyone that you shouldnt follow what you believe to be the law.

The verse that comes to mind concerning the definition of sin, would be "Transgression of the law" and "Any done not in Faith"
 
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Devin P

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I dont get offended easy. And I find nothing wrong with what you are saying or the other poster you mentioned. Lastly, I will not place any character judgement on you, based on what you write or believe.

I am not anti-law and wouldnt tell you or anyone that you shouldnt follow what you believe to be the law.

The verse that comes to mind concerning the definition of sin, would be "Transgression of the law" and "Any done not in Faith"

Precisely, that is exactly what sin is. No one - aside from Jesus - has ever been able to fully lead their lives in complete compliance with the law. Which is why we needed Jesus.

You could live your life and live to be 90 not breaking any of the laws - impossible but for example sake let's roll with it - and then on your 91'st birthday, accidentally look at a young woman lustfully, boom. You don't get to go into heaven.

But, as those before Jesus were purified NOT by their requirements to fulfill their law, but by their faith, so are we called. Our payment, and the payment of those before Christ, was faith in Christ - and ultimately God. Placing faith in his ways, to eat from the tree of life (God's judgement) and not from the tree of knowledge of good and evil (man's judgement).

Jesus tells us to go and sin no more, which the bible says that sinning, is breaking the law. Also, it has shown in many verses that since we are absolutely unable to uphold the entirety of the law, considering breaking one law is breaking the whole law, that our faith is what justifies us. But, trying to obey, is how we show our salvation.

I used to believe, very heavily, in the not having to follow the law type doctrines, but with it, there are so many inconsistencies within scripture. Matthew 7:22-23, which if you look at the original greek for iniquity, it literally means lawlessness, or one who is without law (either for will, or for ignorance).

I could go on, but you get my point. Faith in God, is loving God. We show our faith, by believing in him. But how do we believe? Not with just our mouth, with our actions.

James 2:15-17
15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

This is why Jesus says this in Matthew 15:8

Saying we have faith, is one thing, actually showing it by our actions is another. You will never be worthy enough to merit yourself salvation. Having faith in God is what will merit that. That is how - like Abraham - you get righteousness. By admitting you're not enough, and that you need his grace, his kindness, and his mercy. By submitting to him, and

5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the Lord, and depart from evil.

Without thinking of it from - the law is the receipt and sign of my salvation, not the currency with which I purchase it (because no man can purchase it, God already has) - type of perspective, verses like this make no sense. How are you to acknowledge him? How are you to obey him? If we aren't to follow the law, how do we obey God? Is it a pull inwardly? Is it to not sin? But without the law, how are we to know sin? How are we to avoid it?

7 Well then, am I suggesting that the law of God is sinful? Of course not! In fact, it was the law that showed me my sin. I would never have known that coveting is wrong if the law had not said, “You must not covet.”[a] 8 But sin used this command to arouse all kinds of covetous desires within me! If there were no law, sin would not have that power. 9 At one time I lived without understanding the law. But when I learned the command not to covet, for instance, the power of sin came to life, 10 and I died. So I discovered that the law’s commands, which were supposed to bring life, brought spiritual death instead. 11 Sin took advantage of those commands and deceived me; it used the commands to kill me. 12 But still, the law itself is holy, and its commands are holy and right and good.

Long post, but it's a topic I feel is jumped over today. We have become a people of hardened hearts. Even Jesus tells us that he who loves him should keep his commandments. John 14:21, John 14:31

John 14:31 Is more important. For this topic anyway. The way he says, the world will know, because as His Father gave him the commandment, he will do it, thereby showing the world his love for God based on his actions.
 
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RaymondG

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Precisely, that is exactly what sin is. No one - aside from Jesus - has ever been able to fully lead their lives in complete compliance with the law. Which is why we needed Jesus.

You could live your life and live to be 90 not breaking any of the laws - impossible but for example sake let's roll with it - and then on your 91'st birthday, accidentally look at a young woman lustfully, boom. You don't get to go into heaven.

But, as those before Jesus were purified NOT by their requirements to fulfill their law, but by their faith, so are we called. Our payment, and the payment of those before Christ, was faith in Christ - and ultimately God. Placing faith in his ways, to eat from the tree of life (God's judgement) and not from the tree of knowledge of good and evil (man's judgement).

Jesus tells us to go and sin no more, which the bible says that sinning, is breaking the law. Also, it has shown in many verses that since we are absolutely unable to uphold the entirety of the law, considering breaking one law is breaking the whole law, that our faith is what justifies us. But, trying to obey, is how we show our salvation.

I used to believe, very heavily, in the not having to follow the law type doctrines, but with it, there are so many inconsistencies within scripture. Matthew 7:22-23, which if you look at the original greek for iniquity, it literally means lawlessness, or one who is without law (either for will, or for ignorance).

I could go on, but you get my point. Faith in God, is loving God. We show our faith, by believing in him. But how do we believe? Not with just our mouth, with our actions.

James 2:15-17
15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

This is why Jesus says this in Matthew 15:8

Saying we have faith, is one thing, actually showing it by our actions is another. You will never be worthy enough to merit yourself salvation. Having faith in God is what will merit that. That is how - like Abraham - you get righteousness. By admitting you're not enough, and that you need his grace, his kindness, and his mercy. By submitting to him, and

5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the Lord, and depart from evil.

Without thinking of it from - the law is the receipt and sign of my salvation, not the currency with which I purchase it (because no man can purchase it, God already has) - type of perspective, verses like this make no sense. How are you to acknowledge him? How are you to obey him? If we aren't to follow the law, how do we obey God? Is it a pull inwardly? Is it to not sin? But without the law, how are we to know sin? How are we to avoid it?

7 Well then, am I suggesting that the law of God is sinful? Of course not! In fact, it was the law that showed me my sin. I would never have known that coveting is wrong if the law had not said, “You must not covet.”[a] 8 But sin used this command to arouse all kinds of covetous desires within me! If there were no law, sin would not have that power. 9 At one time I lived without understanding the law. But when I learned the command not to covet, for instance, the power of sin came to life, 10 and I died. So I discovered that the law’s commands, which were supposed to bring life, brought spiritual death instead. 11 Sin took advantage of those commands and deceived me; it used the commands to kill me. 12 But still, the law itself is holy, and its commands are holy and right and good.

Long post, but it's a topic I feel is jumped over today. We have become a people of hardened hearts. Even Jesus tells us that he who loves him should keep his commandments. John 14:21, John 14:31

John 14:31 Is more important. For this topic anyway. The way he says, the world will know, because as His Father gave him the commandment, he will do it, thereby showing the world his love for God based on his actions.
Good post and information. I know where you are coming from. I use to try to follow as many laws as possible. No pork or shell fish......scaled and finned fish only.. no work friday sun down to Sat sun down....tried not to mix fabrics, looked into tzitzits etc... felt good.

It is hard to take note of the laws and actively try to follow them, without starting to feel that you are somehow making yourself righteous and more deserving of Salvation.....that you are winning and gaining your own salvation. It is hard to look at others who arent "following" the law and not feel that im gaining something that they are losing or that they are in the wrong and im in the right. That they are not following God because they are not doing what im doing and therefore God loves me more and therefore Me and God looks down on them. I need to stop preaching the Gospel and start preaching following the law. Its hard not to feel glad that we are not like those sinners over there...eating pork and committing adultery and shaving breads.... Let me pick up rocks and throw them....etc... This can breed self righteousness.

I felt happy and just and content in these way as well......Until..... That's it.....Until...
No need trying to explain the things that passes understanding.

I believe these laws have deeper spiritual meanings that our carnal minds cannot understand.....as it cannot understand the things of the Spirit. It is geared more towards the flesh. Yet we have to crucify the flesh.... The mind will try to stop this at all cost and keep us focused on the flesh.

That being said, we must all work out our soul salvation in fear and trembling. All my experiences helped bring me to where I Am today.... God is in control of everything. As long as you have a desire to please Him you are in the right direction.....acknowledge Him and he will give directions.
 
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Devin P

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Good post and information. I know where you are coming from. I use to try to follow as many laws as possible. No pork or shell fish......scaled and finned fish only.. no work friday sun down to Sat sun down....tried not to mix fabrics, looked into tzitzits etc... felt good.

It is hard to take note of the laws and actively try to follow them, without starting to feel that you are somehow making yourself righteous and more deserving of Salvation.....that you are winning and gaining your own salvation. It is hard to look at others who arent "following" the law and not feel that im gaining something that they are losing or that they are in the wrong and im in the right. That they are not following God because they are not doing what im doing and therefore God loves me more and therefore Me and God looks down on them. I need to stop preaching the Gospel and start preaching following the law. Its hard not to feel glad that we are not like those sinners over there...eating pork and committing adultery and shaving breads.... Let me pick up rocks and throw them....etc... This can breed self righteousness.

I felt happy and just and content in these way as well......Until..... That's it.....Until...
No need trying to explain the things that passes understanding.

I believe these laws have deeper spiritual meanings that our carnal minds cannot understand.....as it cannot understand the things of the Spirit. It is geared more towards the flesh. Yet we have to crucify the flesh.... The mind will try to stop this at all cost and keep us focused on the flesh.

That being said, we must all work out our soul salvation in fear and trembling. All my experiences helped bring me to where I Am today.... God is in control of everything. As long as you have a desire to please Him you are in the right direction.....acknowledge Him and he will give directions.

Pretty much yeah. Except God doesn't look down on those for not following the law, and neither should those following the law. That defeats the purpose of it. It's a gift, grace-given by God. Nothing we can do to earn it, but it's how we show we love him. It's how we show we have faith, by the actions we take. Spiritually, we are the house of Israel that God has yet to rejoin. It's not that you're getting something that they aren't, you see something they don't yet want to see (or arguably, something God isn't allowing them to see). You profess Christ with your lips, and your heart is close to him. That's the difference.

It should make you feel bad, but only because the level of deception is so high today, that many of your brothers and sisters that are supposed to see what you see, are being blinded by the enemy. Making it harder and harder for you to stand the way God calls us to. That, and it should make you feel badly. Sad to be more specific. Sad that the world has put it's goggles on our brothers and sisters and they simply refuse to take them off and look at the truth. Out of I can't even count how many conversations I've had with people on this website, and in real life, you're literally, the first person that hasn't gotten incredibly angry the second the law is brought up. No matter how gently I do it, to no matter who I try to do it to, the second it's brought up - not only will they no longer listen to anything said. They just get angry. Even though scripturally they have no justification for what they're saying, or how they're feeling. They just ignore scripture and go with "I think," or "I feel" or "In my opinion". No, thoughts, feelings or opinions don't matter. It's what's in the scripture that matters.

... Brother, you SHOULD have felt bad. But it's not because of anything you're doing. Nor is it because of anything you're NOT doing. You should feel bad because of the blindness the world has cast upon them.

It's not their fault. "There but by the grace of God, go I."

We need to plead with the Lord, to beg him to give eyes for his children to see, and ears so they can hear. I can see what you mean, by you started to feel more than those that weren't doing those things. I'd just pray about it if you could. Ask Yah to bless you with humility, despite you being a man after His own heart in a world filled with deceit and idolatry. I wouldn't consider each person guilty of committing those things, because it's not their fault. It is, but the powers that be have done such a good job with the many tiers of deception, aside from God, there's pretty much nothing anyone can do to lead someone away from those things. Trust me. Like I said, you're the first person to respond positively to the mention of the law. Aside from others who also (praise YHWH) were able to have faith enough to have been led out of it.
 
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Open Heart

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So, what you are saying is that this passage only refers to the "Children of Israel" even though it says "all flesh"?
I'm sorry, but I have to drop the discussion. I cannot continue it without violating the SOP.
 
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