Prevenient Grace

jimmyjimmy

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rjs330

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Who is the audience for that text?
At that point you could say the unregenerate Israelites. God is calling them to himself. I do not disagree at all with God calls people. He does! But as the word says he calls in more ways than just one. Whether or not people heed the call is entirely up to them. Some listened to Jesus most did not because they preferred darkness to light.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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At that point you could say the unregenerate Israelites. God is calling them to himself. I do not disagree at all with God calls people. He does! But as the word says he calls in more ways than just one. Whether or not people heed the call is entirely up to them. Some listened to Jesus most did not because they preferred darkness to light.

Isaiah, and in fact, all of the OT is directed at the Nation of Israel. This is one of many cals to repentance. This is not an invitation to a Hittites, who would never have access to this document, BTW, to trust in the Lord.
 
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A_Thinker

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Isaiah, and in fact, all of the OT is directed at the Nation of Israel. This is one of many cals to repentance. This is not an invitation to a Hittite, who would never have access to this document, BTW, to trust in the Lord.

In the NT, the call is expanded by Jesus ...

"Come to Me, all ye who labor and are heavy-laden ... "
 
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rjs330

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Thanks, but you can't jump millennia like that.
Yes you can. In the OT God directly deals with the Israelites. It shows how God deals with people. God just expands the call to all people today. In fact other people's in the OT times could become Israilites. They saw what God did and wanted to be part of his people.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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Yes you can. In the OT God directly deals with the Israelites. It shows how God deals with people. God just expands the call to all people today. In fact other people's in the OT times could become Israilites. They saw what God did and wanted to be part of his people.

I remember your first post. Would you like me to quote it?
 
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RisenInJesus

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Reformed Theology sees as regeneration, as it concerns Soteriology.

Non Reformed Theology sees it more as freeing the will to be able to believe, but not necessarily regeneration. As I understand it, it's agreed that we are dead in sin, but God does something to us to enable us to believe, though the choice to believe is still ours to make.

I am more than willing to accept a better definition if someone would like to provide it. This is just my understanding as I've pieced it together through the years.

The question is, is this a biblical concept, and if so, what scripture would be used to support it?
The Bible doesn't speak of prevenient grace, effectual grace, special grace or common grace. It simply speaks of God's grace toward mankind. I do not see the idea of prevenient grace or irresistible grace as biblical concepts, rather systems formulated by men, because I do not believe the Bible supports the idea of total depravity meaning total inability. Calvinists say that total depravity causes an inability which prevents every person from believing the gospel or responding to God in any way except by rejection and rebellion. The Bible never even hints at any such inability, but instead repeatedly presents human sinfulness and warns against rejecting the salvation God has provided through Christ. Never do the scriptures suggest that because of Adam's original sin all his descendants lack the ability to turn to God. The scriptures address mankind with the expectation to exercise their ability to respond, obey, repent, and believe God. In fact, the scriptures command all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30). Apparently Paul believed anyone could respond and was unaware of the inability as taught be Calvinists because he went everywhere throughout the Roman Empire preaching repentance and faith toward Jesus Christ to everyone he encountered.

I believe God has already, by His Sovereign will and grace, enabled all men with the ability to receive or reject salvation by giving each one a conscience (Romans 2:15) and sending the Holy Spirit to bring conviction (John 6:8). I don't think it is scriptural, nor logical, that anyone, though depraved and sinful is unable to believe the call of the gospel and receive Jesus Christ as Savior. Those who reject do so, not because of inability, but as the scriptures say because of pride and suppressing the truth ...

...The wicked in his proud countenance does not seek God; God is in none of his thoughts. Psalms 10:4
...who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. Romans 1:18-19

...because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Romans 1:21
 
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Hammster

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The Bible doesn't speak of prevenient grace, effectual grace, special grace or common grace. It simply speaks of God's grace toward mankind. I do not see the idea of prevenient grace or irresistible grace as biblical concepts, rather systems formulated by men, because I do not believe the Bible supports the idea of total depravity meaning total inability. Calvinists say that total depravity causes an inability which prevents every person from believing the gospel or responding to God in any way except by rejection and rebellion. The Bible never even hints at any such inability, but instead repeatedly presents human sinfulness and warns against rejecting the salvation God has provided through Christ. Never do the scriptures suggest that because of Adam's original sin all his descendants lack the ability to turn to God. The scriptures address mankind with the expectation to exercise their ability to respond, obey, repent, and believe God. In fact, the scriptures command all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30). Apparently Paul believed anyone could respond and was unaware of the inability as taught be Calvinists because he went everywhere throughout the Roman Empire preaching repentance and faith toward Jesus Christ to everyone he encountered.

I believe God has already, by His Sovereign will and grace, enabled all men with the ability to receive or reject salvation by giving each one a conscience (Romans 2:15) and sending the Holy Spirit to bring conviction (John 6:8). I don't think it is scriptural, nor logical, that anyone, though depraved and sinful is unable to believe the call of the gospel and receive Jesus Christ as Savior. Those who reject do so, not because of inability, but as the scriptures say because of pride and suppressing the truth ...

...The wicked in his proud countenance does not seek God; God is in none of his thoughts. Psalms 10:4
...who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. Romans 1:18-19

...because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Romans 1:21
So will you argue against those who hold to prevenient grace (I don't hold that view), or will it be one of those "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" situations?
 
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RisenInJesus

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So will you argue against those who hold to prevenient grace (I don't hold that view), or will it be one of those "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" situations?
Well, since you say and consider yourself a Christian I am not going to call you an enemy. But I thought I just said I don't think the Arminian or Calvinist view is in line with the Bible.
 
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DeaconDean

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I don't follow Wesley's teachings or Arminius' teachings. I know that Wesley came along much later. Research is one of my passions.

It is mine too.

I wasn't meaning to come off "gruff", I just wanted to point out that what you posted is inconsistent.

You don't follow certain theologians from the past, but yet you agree with one, and in fact, the one you agree with is teaching what was taught some 120 years earlier.

And even at that, whether you'll admit it or not, if you attend church today, and listen to your pastor preach, unless your in an area that don't require a PhD before being "hired" as a pastor, somebody had to teach them. They are teaching/preaching somebody else's "theology".

Kinda ironic.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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Rescued One

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It is mine too.

I wasn't meaning to come off "gruff", I just wanted to point out that what you posted is inconsistent.

You don't follow certain theologians from the past, but yet you agree with one, and in fact, the one you agree with is teaching what was taught some 120 years earlier.

And even at that, whether you'll admit it or not, if you attend church today, and listen to your pastor preach, unless your in an area that don't require a PhD before being "hired" as a pastor, somebody had to teach them. They are teaching/preaching somebody else's "theology".

Kinda ironic.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Are you suggesting that we don't go to church or listen to any preachers? I do not agree with Wesley if that's what you thought. But do you disaprove of all preachers because they are men? The apostles were men and Jesus told them to preach. The prophets were men.

Or do you want me to label myself a Calvinist?

1 Corinthians 1
12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
 
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HatGuy

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Okay, just checking. I think the issue is that you are believing that regeneration and receiving the Spirit or being sealed by the Spitit are the same thing. They aren't.
I agree with you that they aren't.

But you're confusing me about where you stand now. Let me then ask you the same question I was asked earlier to clarify: when a person is regenerated, are they in the flesh or in the Spirit?
 
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jimmyjimmy

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I agree with you that they aren't.

But you're confusing me about where you stand now. Let me then ask you the same question I was asked earlier to clarify: when a person is regenerated, are they in the flesh or in the Spirit?

1. Election - God's choice of a people to be saved took place before the world was made. To the saints at Ephesus Paul wrote, 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world.

2. Predestination - Election is God's choice, and predestination is the pre assigned destination marked out for those He chose, that destination being salvation and full glorification in heaven.

3. Gospel Call (or the outward call of the gospel - outward in that it happens outside of us “ the preaching of the gospel, heard with the physical ear)

The word call, called, or calling can be determined by the context in which the words are found. For instance, Jesus said "many are called but few are chosen." These words make sense when we understand that He is referring to the outward call of the gospel.

God uses means to achieve His ends. The ends are the salvation of His elect people; the means being the proclamation of the gospel. The elect will come to Christ, but they do so by the means of hearing the gospel.

Romans 9: 14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?

4. Inward call (where God the Holy Spirit speaks life to the elect's dead human spirit, even as they hear the outward call of the gospel)

As we examine the writings of the Apostle Paul, it would seem that he uses this word called or calling to describe the inward call that brings the sinner to spiritual life.

1 Cor 1: 22 - For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24 but to those who are called (inwardly called), both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

The cross is seen either as a stumbling block or as foolishness to all, except the called.

This inward call always results in.

5. Regeneration (just as Jesus cried out with a loud voice 'Lazarus come forth' before Lazarus came to life, logically speaking, number 4 (the inward call) has to come before number 5 (regeneration) the inward call has to come before spiritual life (regeneration or being born again or born from above) is imparted.

Jesus - John 3:3 - unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.

2 Cor 4:3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing. 4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who said, 'Let light shine out of darkness, has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

6. Conversion (repentance and faith) – we repent, we put faith in Christ, so this is human activity, but is the result of Divine activity.

John 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

1 John 5:1 - Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God.  In the original Greek, the verb tenses in this verse are very revealing. A literal translation reads as follows: All the ones going on believing (pisteuon, a present tense, continuous action) that Jesus is the Christ has been born (gennesanta, perfect tense - an action already complete with abiding effects) of God. The fact that someone is presently going on believing in Christ shows that they have first been born again. Faith is the evidence of regeneration, not the cause of it. Since both repentance and faith are possible only because of the work of God (regeneration), both are called the gift of God in Scripture (2 Tim 2:24-26; Eph. 2:8, 9; Phil. 1:29; Heb 12:2).

7. Justification - God's declaration that a person is just (or right) in His sight. All those who put their trust (faith) in Christ for salvation are justified. Logically then, first there is faith, then there is justification. Romans 5:1 - Therefore having been justified by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

8. Sanctification - set apart to God - an on-going process in this life, but perfected the moment we step from this life into the next (1 Cor 15:50-55).

9. Glorification. (see Rom 8:28-30) - the Golden Chain of Redemption has 5 links - foreknown, predestined, called, justified, glorified

Reformation Theology: Ordo Salutis (The Order of Salvation)
 
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HatGuy

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Isaiah, and in fact, all of the OT is directed at the Nation of Israel. This is one of many cals to repentance. This is not an invitation to a Hittite, who would never have access to this document, BTW, to trust in the Lord.
Except Paul makes it explicit that "not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel," - or as the NLT clarifies, "not all who are born into the nation of Israel are truly members of God's people." Not all in the Nation of Israel were truly saved / regenerate.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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Except Paul makes it explicit that "not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel," - or as the NLT clarifies, "not all who are born into the nation of Israel are truly members of God's people." Not all in the Nation of Israel were truly saved / regenerate.

Who can "return" to the Lord?
 
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HatGuy

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1. Election - God's choice of a people to be saved took place before the world was made. To the saints at Ephesus Paul wrote, 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world.

2. Predestination - Election is God's choice, and predestination is the pre assigned destination marked out for those He chose, that destination being salvation and full glorification in heaven.

3. Gospel Call (or the outward call of the gospel - outward in that it happens outside of us “ the preaching of the gospel, heard with the physical ear)

The word call, called, or calling can be determined by the context in which the words are found. For instance, Jesus said "many are called but few are chosen." These words make sense when we understand that He is referring to the outward call of the gospel.

God uses means to achieve His ends. The ends are the salvation of His elect people; the means being the proclamation of the gospel. The elect will come to Christ, but they do so by the means of hearing the gospel.

Romans 9: 14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?

4. Inward call (where God the Holy Spirit speaks life to the elect's dead human spirit, even as they hear the outward call of the gospel)

As we examine the writings of the Apostle Paul, it would seem that he uses this word called or calling to describe the inward call that brings the sinner to spiritual life.

1 Cor 1: 22 - For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24 but to those who are called (inwardly called), both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

The cross is seen either as a stumbling block or as foolishness to all, except the called.

This inward call always results in.

5. Regeneration (just as Jesus cried out with a loud voice 'Lazarus come forth' before Lazarus came to life, logically speaking, number 4 (the inward call) has to come before number 5 (regeneration) the inward call has to come before spiritual life (regeneration or being born again or born from above) is imparted.

Jesus - John 3:3 - unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.

2 Cor 4:3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing. 4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who said, 'Let light shine out of darkness, has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

6. Conversion (repentance and faith) – we repent, we put faith in Christ, so this is human activity, but is the result of Divine activity.

John 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

1 John 5:1 - Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God.  In the original Greek, the verb tenses in this verse are very revealing. A literal translation reads as follows: All the ones going on believing (pisteuon, a present tense, continuous action) that Jesus is the Christ has been born (gennesanta, perfect tense - an action already complete with abiding effects) of God. The fact that someone is presently going on believing in Christ shows that they have first been born again. Faith is the evidence of regeneration, not the cause of it. Since both repentance and faith are possible only because of the work of God (regeneration), both are called the gift of God in Scripture (2 Tim 2:24-26; Eph. 2:8, 9; Phil. 1:29; Heb 12:2).

7. Justification - God's declaration that a person is just (or right) in His sight. All those who put their trust (faith) in Christ for salvation are justified. Logically then, first there is faith, then there is justification. Romans 5:1 - Therefore having been justified by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

8. Sanctification - set apart to God - an on-going process in this life, but perfected the moment we step from this life into the next (1 Cor 15:50-55).

9. Glorification. (see Rom 8:28-30) - the Golden Chain of Redemption has 5 links - foreknown, predestined, called, justified, glorified

Reformation Theology: Ordo Salutis (The Order of Salvation)

You have literally just put receiving the Spirit (step 5) before faith (step 6).

At "Regeneration" you've explicitly said that it is the point of being "born from above", "born again", and being "born of the Spirit".

I'm confused. Are you saying that being "born of the Spirit" is different to "receiving the Spirit"? And, if so, why? And at what point in this order of salvation are you saying the person receives the Spirit?
 
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jimmyjimmy

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You have literally just put receiving the Spirit (step 5) before faith (step 6).

Yes. Of course.

God speaks. We come alive. We go forth as new creatures.

Regeneration must precede faith. The "old man" is unwilling and incapable of pleasing God. "Those who are in the flesh cannot please God."
 
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HatGuy

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Yes. Of course.

God speaks. We come alive. We go forth as new creatures.

Regeneration must precede faith. The "old man" is unwilling and incapable of pleasing God. "Those who are in the flesh cannot please God."
Okay, so please answer: Are you saying that being "born of the Spirit" is different to "receiving the Spirit"? And, if so, why? And at what point in this order of salvation are you saying the person receives the Spirit?
 
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jimmyjimmy

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Okay, so please answer: Are you saying that being "born of the Spirit" is different to "receiving the Spirit"? And, if so, why? And at what point in this order of salvation are you saying the person receives the Spirit?



I don't see any distinction between the two terms you are using. Born of = born by. We are impregnated, if you will, by God's Spirit, though His Word.

God's word cannot be separated from His Spirit. They come to us together. Regeneration = born again.

Jesus spoke to a dead man, Lazarus, and Lazarus was instantly made alive. This is a picture of how the spiritual reality works.

By His Word, God is creating this reality. When He commands, believe and repent, those very words created belief and repentance in His elect.
 
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