Where does babies go after they die?

Robert76 said:

The basis for my belief is primarily on faith and the teaching by those whom I believe are men being used in a great way by God. When I hear teachings from John MacArthur, David Jeremiah, Billy Graham, Adrian Rogers, etc... these coincided that when we die, we go to be with the Lord. These are men that have spent their lives digging into God's word, applying it to their lives, and spreading God's word into the world. With that I cannot claim ownership of where we go when we die as being my injected notion, it is the belief of many great theologians and is supported by the Bible in numerous places, one of which we see in Philippians 1:23 (ESV):

"I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better."

2 Corinthians 5:8 (ESV) goes on to say:

"Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord."

Now we can quote scriptures all day to each other, but it is not my desire to prove myself right here. You are my brother in the faith and the matter of what happens when we die is a tertiary issue. If we can agree in Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." then we can both have the assurance that we will both be saved, we will both be in the presence of Jesus, and we will worship Him in His glory for all eternity.

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I truly appreciate your honesty, and kindness.

I sense in your response a recognition that there truly isn't a Scriptural basis for the VERY popular teaching that the righteous "go to heaven".

The passage you quote from 2 Corinthians does NOT mention heaven, and does NOT contradict Paul's repeated statement regarding the ONLY hope of escaping death is resurrection, and that resurrection is the mechanism for the righteous to "be with Christ". The notion that this happens DURING death, is a forced interpretation, supported ONLY by traditions .... NOT by Scripture.

The idea that only Grace matters ignores VAST quantities of Scripture regarding the necessity of TRUTH!
John 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them in the truth: thy word is truth. 18 As thou didst send me into the world, even so sent I them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth. 20 Neither for these only do I pray, but for them also that believe on me through their word; 21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us: that the world may believe that thou didst send me.

2 Thess 2:10 and with all deceit of unrighteousness for them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God sendeth them a working of error, that they should believe a lie: 12 that they all might be judged who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

2 John 9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the teaching of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the teaching of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this teaching, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

OrthodoxyUSA said:

Babies going to hell is a result of bad western scholastic theology. In it's force of logic it shows its weakness in wisdom. It does not exist in any Eastern Church.

Forgive me...

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I think you are right.

Mediakira said:

I don't know where to post this question. So, staff members, I need some guidance for this post so I post it here.

But where does babies go after death? They say in some cases they go to hell, or they go to heaven.

They also say babies don't know God when they are made. But I for one knew God as He was making me. When I was born. So, I believe that I was saved when I knew Him. I was gifted with some kind of Holy Spirit.

I don't know. I didn't believe this one women that said. NO Animals or babies go to heaven. I don't believe in that. IS she right?

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Romans chapter 9 verse 11
Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand:


That verse is about Jacob and Esau.

Dartman said:

Sorry, I believe all of them.

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I do too (the posted Holy Scripture quotes). However, you keep picking verses (good ones) which speak of final judgment and the resurrection. Paul in 2 Corinthians 4 and 2 Corinthians 5 gives a very good explanation of what happens with us while we await the resurrection. He does so again in 1 Thessalonians 4 and again in Philippians 1.

Dartman said:

No, Jesus told the thief that day, he would be with him in Paradise.

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Indeed Jesus did tell the repentant man next to Him "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."

Now of course you will tell us paradise is decaying in the earth, which it is not. I don't think Jesus was telling him "truly you will die and go into deep soul sleep today." I've heard all manner of wrested theories from the likes of JWs and SDAs over the years to explain away 'today' and 'Paradise.'

Dartman said:

No. Jesus told a PARABLE, about the gospel being taken from the nation of Israel, and given to the Gentiles.

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The gospel being taken from the nation of Israel and given to the Gentiles? Don't think so. Who championed that interpretation? Hebert W. Armstrong? He was big on trying to prove the 'new' Israel was England/US.

The very first Christians were Jews and it was from the Jewish apostles the keys of the kingdom were exercised.

What's interesting of the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, is it is the only parable where a person is named. For what that's worth to you, it could mean Jesus was telling a true story only the Son of God would know. Secondly, Jesus dealt in parables in what the people around Him believed. Which means His audience would have no issues with His illustration of judgment/reward. Also, Jesus told parables and not Sci Fi/Fantasy stories. If His illustration in any way had no bearing on the immediate audience, then He would have been discredited. Meaning, Jesus was not telling some Greek mythological theme. It was a Jewish understanding of the time and well attested to in Jewish literature:


PARADISE – ...against the nether and the upper Gan 'Eden. Curiously enough, hell and paradise join each other. R. Johanan claims that a partition of only a hand-breadth, or four inches wide, separates them. The Rabbis say the ...Biblical Data: The word "paradise" is probably of Persian origin. It occurs but three times in the Old Testament, namely, in Cant. iv. 13, Eccl. ii. 5, and ...moved in the midst of the stones of fire. To form a complete picture of Ezekiel's conception of paradise one should add the reference to the cedar as the supreme tree of Eden (Ezek. xxxi.), and his description of...
ABRAHAM'S BOSOM – ...representative of humanity, who sits at the gate of hell and paradise; the Jewish view of later times placed Abraham, the progenitor of Israel, in Adam's place. This was also the view of the New Testament writers as ...Jacob in paradise (compare Matt. viii. 11: "Many shall come from the east and the west and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven"). In Ḳid. 72b, Adda bar Ahaba, a rabbi of the ...and they will enter paradise as well as Lazarus." On Lazarus (Eliezer) and Abraham see Geiger's "Jüdische Zeitschrift für Wissenschaft und Leben," vii. 200. It is plain that Abraham is here viewed as the warden...
GE-HINNOM – ...punishment, and thus with hell (comp. Isa. lxvi. 24; Enoch, xxvi. et seq.; and the rabbinical Hebrew equivalent). See Gehenna; paradise">Paradise
Paradise and hell - search - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Dartman said:

The entire person is in the grave. Their breath is gone, they aren't thinking, they have "returned to dust" exactly like Jehovah/YHVH God said (Gen 3:19).
You are attempting to read pagan theories into Christ's clear simple statement.

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As I pointed out with regards to pagan theories, Jesus preached of souls in the Bosom of Abraham and souls in torment in Hades. Are you implying Jesus was using pagan theories to teach a literal truth?

Gen 3:19 does not mention Adam losing his breath. Nowhere in the text. It talks about the created body returning to dust. God did not create Adam's soul from the dust of the earth. He breathed it into him. So that text does not help you out other than from a point of silence. No breath or where it goes is addressed in the text.

Seejer said:

Of course if it is true then why would any Christian let their children have a chance to possibly fall from Grace instead of granting them guaranteed eternal life immediately by aborting them.

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Because we were told to do no such thing.

Parents are told to not kill and to instruct their children in righteousness. No wiggle room there.

Dartman said:

Not remotely. Paul doesn't contradict this Scriptural statement in any way.

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Of course not. However, you have ignored his discourse on the outer and inner man. In chapter 5 he explains the state of the inner man after death.

GirdYourLoins said:

At what age do babies lose this ability to go to heaven without judgement?

So many on here are saying that the little children go straight to heaven. When does it not happen? Most children will start lying from not long after they start to talk, no one needs to teach them this. They will also be naughty and steal things. So at what point do they become accountable for this? When do they not get away with lying, stealing, etc any longer?

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They have to understand that they are accountable to God, and that is not an easy concept for children who cannot see this God that we tell them exists.

Hank77 said:

They have to understand that they are accountable to God, and that is not an easy concept for children who cannot see this God that we tell them exists.

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Funny ... no offense, but I found that children often have a much easier time when introduced to the idea of God than adults do.

redleghunter said:

Of course not. However, you have ignored his discourse on the outer and inner man. In chapter 5 he explains the state of the inner man after death.

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Not remotely. Paul is discussing our need to be resurrected/clothed with immortality. EXACTLY the same topic as 1 Cor 15.
Notice, Paul VERY specifically states we do NOT wish to be "unclothed", but "clothed upon", so that this mortal becomes immortal.

~Anastasia~ said:

Funny ... no offense, but I found that children often have a much easier time when introduced to the idea of God than adults do.

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LOL ... I once heard a story about a young child, whose cat died. The parents felt the child would be devastated by this news, so they decided to try and make the issue less of a problem by telling the little boy that his cat had died, but now it was "with God in heaven".. (which was not true, but was sort of consistent with their doctrine). When they told the boy, he was sad, but quite thoughtful for a few minutes. Then he piped up, and asked: "But .... what does God want with a dead cat"?

Dartman said:

There is no other kind of resurrection. The very definition of the word, along with EVERY Scripture on the subject proves this.

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Indeed so how can you use a verse that does not address the soul or 'inner man' as Paul addresses quite well in 2 Corinthians 4 through 2 Corinthians 5?

Dartman said:

I truly appreciate your honesty, and kindness.

I sense in your response a recognition that there truly isn't a Scriptural basis for the VERY popular teaching that the righteous "go to heaven".

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@Robert76 didn't say 'heaven' and he did give Scriptural substantiation.

This is what the Apostle Paul actually said:

Therefore we do not lose heart. Even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward man is being renewed day by day. 17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, is working for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory, 18 while we do not look at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen. For the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal.

For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. For we walk by faith, not by sight. We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

Scripture: 2 Corinthians 4:16–5:10

Paul is really grappling here with knowing his current body will fail, was failing and will die but knowing at the resurrection he would have a house not made with hands but a building from God-the resurrected body. Yet he mentions here we are in our tents groaning but takes comfort that out of these decaying bodies (absent) when we die we will be present with the Lord.

Where is the Lord now? Call the place whatever you want, but Paul makes it clear we will be with the Lord. And this particular statement is not about the resurrection. He already addressed the final 'outcome' of our resurrected bodies. He is discussing our 'inner man' our soul.

Continuing with Philippians 1, same theme:

For I know that this will turn out for my deliverance through your prayer and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, according to my earnest expectation and hope that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ will be magnified in my body, whether by life or by death. For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you. And being confident of this, I know that I shall remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy of faith, that your rejoicing for me may be more abundant in Jesus Christ by my coming to you again.

Scripture: Philippians 1:19-26

Who is remaining in the flesh? Paul. Who will depart and be with Christ? Paul. Confirms his use of 'outer man' 'inner man.'

JoeP222w said:

If they are the elect of God, saved by His grace alone, they go to Heaven. If they are not, God justly sends them to Hell.
The rules of salvation do not change depending on the age of the individual or emotional connection.

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Hi Joe, I am unaware of any Catholic or Protestant church/denomination within the pale of orthodoxy that teaches/believes what you do about babies who die (that they may end up burning in Hell forever on the basis of their inherited nature). I'm not saying it's not possible that this is taught by some, which is why I would be interested in knowing which denomination you belong to (and any others that you know of, quite frankly, that teach that).

It seems to me that we've been down this road before, but I'm afraid I don't remember the answer to that question if you gave it to me previously.

Thanks!

--David

Jason 0047 said, "

But what about those whose bodies have been incinerated and their ashes were cast away at sea? How will they hear? What about those corpses whose inner ears (to hear) have decayed away?

God can do anything, right? If so, if I were to die, and my body buried at sea, or I am cremated, and my ashes scattered to the sea, God, who is able to count the number of our hairs, and who can collect all of our tears in a bottle, can He not also collect all of the molecules of my body, wherever they may be, and create a glorified body for me? Who worries about things like this?

Dartman said:

No, Jesus told the thief that day, he would be with him in Paradise. Jesus then went to hell, for the next 3 days;

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I think your picking nits, here.“And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.” (Luke 23:43)

Dartman said:

Not remotely. Paul is discussing our need to be resurrected/clothed with immortality. EXACTLY the same topic as 1 Cor 15.

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He is discussing his desire to be resurrected immediately and not be unclothed (naked). However, he is also telling the audience that once his earthly tent is removed (his body which will perish to decay) that we are present with the Lord.

Dartman said:

Notice, Paul VERY specifically states we do NOT wish to be "unclothed", but "clothed upon", so that this mortal becomes immortal.

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Right he does say that. However, he denotes that even so it is better to be with the Lord than remain in our failing earthly bodies. What your missing here is Paul is making a clear delineation between the outer and inner man. Paul is referring the inner man as Paul. When Paul's outer man dies, his inner man is present with the Lord.

That my friend is the exegesis of the discourse which runs through two chapters.

And of course his audience would not be baffled...Why? Because Jesus gave a parable everyone understood about Abraham's Bosom and Hades.

There you have it...Paul is teaching what Jesus taught.

Seejer said:

Of course if it is true then why would any Christian let their children have a chance to possibly fall from Grace instead of granting them guaranteed eternal life immediately by aborting them.

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Another way to think is like the Pre-Reformation Churches, and have the child baptized as an infant. Then, until such time as a child comes to the age of reason--which must, of course, be interpreted differently for every person--the child goes to heaven.

WHO can make such a judgement as to whether a person has reached the age of reason? ONLY GOD, not anyone, even Calvin.

Dartman said:

Babies, and ALL of God's creatures, return to dust. They are asleep in the dust. They are asleep in the graves.
All humans are waiting for one of two different resurrections. All people who die before Jesus returns, and who have been righteous, will be resurrected at his return to immortal life.
All people who die before Jesus returns, and are wicked, will be resurrected to judgment, confession, and destruction.

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Where, exactly is that delineated in the Bible?, that babies are asleep in the grave? And that all humans are still waiting for TWO different resurrections, one for the righteous, and another one for a mixed group of righteous and unrighteous? Book, Chapter and Verse, please.

Sorry, Duplicate post.

Christ did not go to "hell" ... Acts 2:31 in the Greek references Hades, which is the place of the dead.

The early Christians understood that Christ was bodily in the sepulcher, spirit in Hades, preaching to the captives there. He later "led captivity captive" ... His spirit was reunited with His then-glorified body, and that was the Resurrection, which we will follow Him in at the end of this age, all bodies being resurrected and joined once again with the spirit.

But debating soul sleep has not much to do with the judgement of infants, so we do risk going off-topic here.