David & Bath-sheba

AnticipateHisComing · Aug 1, 2017

rrobsr said:
In fact, David ended up in the Hebrew’s chapter 11 “believers hall of fame” (Heb 11:32).

So the top leader of all Israel murders an innocent man. David repented. God forgave him.

Hebrews 11 commends people for their faith, not how perfect they were. People often forget that in the end God judges our heart. We are not perfect and can't be. Despite this, God uses us in his plan. As I grow older, I have come to more appreciate how the greatest love is to forgive an offense. It is easy to love one who never offends you, much harder to love and forgive one that sins against you. In humbleness, every time I sin and ask God for forgiveness, I have to remember that I am commanded to forgive those that in like manner sin against me.

Acts 13:22 After removing Saul, he made David their king. God testified concerning him: ‘I have found David son of Jesse, a man after my own heart; he will do everything I want him to do.’

So scripture shows David to be a man with a heart that wanted to be like God's. Scripture says he did what God wanted him to do. Scripture does not say everything he did was what God wanted him to do. God loved him despite this.

There are numerous examples in scripture of God using people for his good, despite our bad. This only highlights God's love, grace and mercy. Peter, the rock of the new church, denied Jesus three times. So much for the Catholics thinking he was perfect.

AnticipateHisComing · Aug 1, 2017

Hank77 said:
His first born was illegitimate, maybe that is why.

How could he be any less legitimate than Solomon?

AnticipateHisComing · Aug 1, 2017

Superhero Sam said:
She would probably be killed for refusing to do what the King wanted.

Certainly a bad dictator would, but David was not a bad dictator. Study the story of how Abraham passed off his wife as his sister because he knew how beautiful she was and the godless king would desire her and take her.

Aseyesee · Aug 1, 2017

rrobsr said:
God hand picked David to be king over Israel. He was the top leader over all of Israel (1 Samuel 1).

He used that position to commit murder in the first degree. He had Bath-sheba’s husband, Uriah, killed so he could have Bath-sheba all to himself. That is outlined in 2 Samuel chapter 11. A law school could use this chapter as an example of murder in the first degree. Conspiracy also and probably a few other niceties.

God wasn’t happy about David’s behaviour (2 Sam 11:27) so he had a talk with him. He told David that things wouldn’t be going very well for him and Israel from now on. But David immediately repented and so God completely forgave him (2 Sam 12). In fact, David ended up in the Hebrew’s chapter 11 “believers hall of fame” (Heb 11:32).

So the top leader of all Israel murders an innocent man. David repented. God forgave him.

The question: what would present day Christendom do to a man like David?

It would appear God did not keep his own law ... or did he ...

What would they do, follow the law of an eye for an eye.

RDKirk · Aug 1, 2017

Superhero Sam said:
She would probably be killed for refusing to do what the King wanted.

Yes. People today--particularly Americans--don't understand what power is.

And David called one of the young men and said, “Go, cut him down.” So he struck him and he died. 2 Samuel

And David commanded his young men, and they killed them and cut off their hands and feet and hanged them beside the pool at Hebron. 2 Samuel 4

So David sent someone to inquire about her....
David sent messengers to get her....
David sent orders to Joab....

In other words, the king's power was unquestioned.

And when all the officers of the army joined the general to dissuade David from a nationally disasterous command:

The king's word, however, overruled Joab and the army commanders; so they left the presence of the king to enroll the fighting men of Israel. 2 Samuel 24

The king still prevailed.

RDKirk · Aug 1, 2017

AnticipateHisComing said:
Certainly a bad dictator would, but David was not a bad dictator. Study the story of how Abraham passed off his wife as his sister because he knew how beautiful she was and the godless king would desire her and take her.

Actually, David was a pretty sorry king.

David was singularly responsible for the greatest disaster that ever struck the kingdom short of the Babylonian Captivity. David overruled his general and all his captains, obstinately questioning God's protection of Israel and thus causing the death of 70,000 fighting men (plus others uncounted). That was more men than the kingdom had ever lost in all their wars combined. Nobody was responsible for that but David, and all his military leaders knew it.

David was responsible for two rebellions caused by nothing but his own failure to handle his own family (notice that much later, such a man would not even be permitted to be an elder in the Church).

Good, loyal men died, wives were made widows, children were made orphans... to protect David from his own follies.

Even in the end, scripture is careful to note that the murderous drama of his succession was caused directly by David himself knowingly failing to prepare for Solomon to take the throne instead of the expected elder son.

As a warrior, David was great. As a king and father, he was a failure.

Sammy-San · Aug 1, 2017

RDKirk said:
Yes. People today--particularly Americans--don't understand what power is.

And David called one of the young men and said, “Go, cut him down.” So he struck him and he died. 2 Samuel

And David commanded his young men, and they killed them and cut off their hands and feet and hanged them beside the pool at Hebron. 2 Samuel 4

So David sent someone to inquire about her....
David sent messengers to get her....
David sent orders to Joab....

In other words, the king's power was unquestioned.

And when all the officers of the army joined the general to dissuade David from a nationally disasterous command:

The king's word, however, overruled Joab and the army commanders; so they left the presence of the king to enroll the fighting men of Israel. 2 Samuel 24

The king still prevailed.

But him exempting her from the death penalty, even though she was in that entire situation due to his coercion, would still have been two wrongs not making a right.

RDKirk · Aug 1, 2017

Superhero Sam said:
But him exempting her from the death penalty, even though she was in that entire situation due to his coercion, would still have been two wrongs not making a right.

The entire matter was not officially public (although those in and close to the court must surely have known what happened, and Joab probably learned that he was a pawn in sin as well).

David had killed Uriah to cover his role and that act also covered Bath-Sheba. He could not have had her executed without exposing himself publically.

Nathan's characterization of Bath-Sheba as a lamb--God's own symbol of innocence--is speaking as a prophet of God, and relaying God's judgment of her as innocent. He could have called her a "backsliding heifer," (one of God's own terms of disparagement) but he called her a lamb.

Sammy-San · Aug 1, 2017

RDKirk said:
The entire matter was not officially public (although those in and close to the court must surely have known what happened, and Joab probably learned that he was a pawn in sin as well).

David had killed Uriah to cover his role and that act also covered Bath-Sheba. He could not have had her executed without exposing himself publically.

Nathan's characterization of Bath-Sheba as a lamb--God's own symbol of innocence--is speaking as a prophet of God, and relaying God's judgment of her as innocent. He could have called her a "backsliding heifer," (one of God's own terms of disparagement) but he called her a lamb.

This isn't a perfect example of how even extreme law is still the law?

These circumstances don't change the fact that Batsheba was supposed to have been killed, despite her terrible circumstances that she didn't even ask for. http://www.baylor.edu/content/services/document.php/145462.pdf

RDKirk · Aug 1, 2017

Superhero Sam said:
This isn't a perfect example of how even extreme law is still the law?

These circumstances don't change the fact that Batsheba was supposed to have been killed, despite her terrible circumstances that she didn't even ask for. http://www.baylor.edu/content/services/document.php/145462.pdf

I'd point out again that the prophet of the Lord characterized her as a lamb and thus absolved her of guilt.

Inasmuch as she was taken, I'd say she was raped.

Sammy-San · Aug 1, 2017

RDKirk said:
I'd point out again that the prophet of the Lord characterized her as a lamb and thus absolved her of guilt.

Inasmuch as she was taken, I'd say she was raped.

That wasn't a defense to adultery at the time?

RDKirk · Aug 1, 2017

Superhero Sam said:
That wasn't a defense to adultery at the time?

Deuteronomy 22 appears to draw a distinction between rape and adultery/fornication. It does not address it in the detail that would draw a bright line in this case, but you continue to ignore the fact that the prophet of the Lord characterized Bath-Sheba as innocent.

Adstar · Aug 2, 2017

AnticipateHisComing said:
Don't be so naive. A king is the same as a dictator. Dictators of today take the same liberties as dictators of yesterday. When Israel asked God for a king he warned them that kings would oppress the people. They signed up for it.

BTW, even in democracies, politicians get away with even more blatant murders.

So Gaddafi of Libya get away with it?

Did Nixon get away with it?

There is no blanket statement that applies in this world..

bbbbbbb · Aug 2, 2017

RDKirk said:
Deuteronomy 22 appears to draw a distinction between rape and adultery/fornication. It does not address it in the detail that would draw a bright line in this case, but you continue to ignore the fact that the prophet of the Lord characterized Bath-Sheba as innocent.

Correct. There is absolutely no indication of any guilt on the part of Bath-Sheba. The sin was entirely David's. Psalm 51 makes that completely clear.

51:1 Be gracious to me, O God, according to Your lovingkindness;
According to the greatness of Your compassion blot out my transgressions.
2 Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity
And cleanse me from my sin.
3 For I know my transgressions,
And my sin is ever before me.
4 Against You, You only, I have sinned
And done what is evil in Your sight,
So that You are justified when You speak
And blameless when You judge.

5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me.
6 Behold, You desire truth in the innermost being,
And in the hidden part You will make me know wisdom.
7 Purify me with hyssop, and I shall be clean;
Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
8 Make me to hear joy and gladness,
Let the bones which You have broken rejoice.
9 Hide Your face from my sins
And blot out all my iniquities.

10 Create in me a clean heart, O God,
And renew a steadfast spirit within me.
11 Do not cast me away from Your presence
And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
12 Restore to me the joy of Your salvation
And sustain me with a willing spirit.
13 Then I will teach transgressors Your ways,
And sinners will be converted to You.

14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, the God of my salvation;
Then my tongue will joyfully sing of Your righteousness.
15 O Lord, open my lips,
That my mouth may declare Your praise.
16 For You do not delight in sacrifice, otherwise I would give it;
You are not pleased with burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise.

18 By Your favor do good to Zion;
Build the walls of Jerusalem.
19 Then You will delight in righteous sacrifices,
In burnt offering and whole burnt offering;
Then young bulls will be offered on Your altar.

AnticipateHisComing · Aug 2, 2017

Adstar said:
David today would be spending 20 years in prison or maybe he would have been executed depending on what nation He was the ruler of..

AnticipateHisComing said:
Don't be so naive. A king is the same as a dictator. Dictators of today take the same liberties as dictators of yesterday. When Israel asked God for a king he warned them that kings would oppress the people. They signed up for it.

BTW, even in democracies, politicians get away with even more blatant murders.

Adstar said:
So Gaddafi of Libya get away with it?

Did Nixon get away with it?

There is no blanket statement that applies in this world..

Try this one on, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Broaden the breadth of your knowledge of history and just try to refute what I stated. That would be that kings/dictators oppress their people today, like before. That even in democracies, politicians get away with murder.

Nixon committed no murder. Try the Kennedys or Clintons. Of course I'd like you to prove that no elected politician has ever gotten away with murder.

rrobsr · Aug 2, 2017

AnticipateHisComing said:
Hebrews 11 commends people for their faith, not how perfect they were. People often forget that in the end God judges our heart. We are not perfect and can't be. Despite this, God uses us in his plan. As I grow older, I have come to more appreciate how the greatest love is to forgive an offense. It is easy to love one who never offends you, much harder to love and forgive one that sins against you. In humbleness, every time I sin and ask God for forgiveness, I have to remember that I am commanded to forgive those that in like manner sin against me.

Acts 13:22 After removing Saul, he made David their king. God testified concerning him: ‘I have found David son of Jesse, a man after my own heart; he will do everything I want him to do.’

So scripture shows David to be a man with a heart that wanted to be like God's. Scripture says he did what God wanted him to do. Scripture does not say everything he did was what God wanted him to do. God loved him despite this.

There are numerous examples in scripture of God using people for his good, despite our bad. This only highlights God's love, grace and mercy. Peter, the rock of the new church, denied Jesus three times. So much for the Catholics thinking he was perfect.

1Sam 16:7,

But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.

It is all too easy to judge others while ignoring our own transgressions. We should take the log out of our own eye before criticizing the speck of dust in another's eye (Matt 7:3-5). We should try our best to avoid such judgement against others, but if and when we do, God even forgives those unrighteous judgements against them. Truly, a perfect God we have! How else are we going to be with our Lord and saviour Jesus Christ for eternity in paradise?
It's got to be grace.

rrobsr · Aug 2, 2017

Adstar said:
David today would be spending 20 years in prison or maybe he would have been executed depending on what nation He was the ruler of..

God would forgive David today all the same.. But the forgiveness of God today does not save one from the worldly consequences of ones transgressions.. The forgiveness of God saves one from the eternal consequences of ones transgressions..

But having said that sometimes God can and does cause people of today that have transgressed to avoid the worldly consequences of their transgressions..

Grace is God giving us what we do not deserve.
Mercy is God not giving us what we do deserve.

Thank God for God!

AnticipateHisComing · Aug 2, 2017

RDKirk said:
Actually, David was a pretty sorry king.

RDKirk said:
As a warrior, David was great. As a king and father, he was a failure.

Find a better, more revered king of Israel. Saul got the throne taken away and even the wise rich King Solomon succumbed to being enticed by foreigners, his saving grace was the covenant with David.

1 Kings 11:11 So the Lord said to Solomon, “Because [f]you have done this, and you have not kept My covenant and My statutes, which I have commanded you, I will surely tear the kingdom from you, and will give it to your servant. 12 Nevertheless I will not do it in your days for the sake of your father David, but I will tear it out of the hand of your son. 13 However, I will not tear away all the kingdom, but I will give one tribe to your son for the sake of My servant David and for the sake of Jerusalem which I have chosen.”

What is that star called that Jewish people identify with?
That would be the Star of DAVID. Your assessment ignores God's assessment of David.

RDKirk · Aug 2, 2017

AnticipateHisComing said:
Find a better, more revered king of Israel. Saul got the throne taken away and even the wise rich King Solomon succumbed to being enticed by foreigners, his saving grace was the covenant with David.

1 Kings 11:11 So the Lord said to Solomon, “Because [f]you have done this, and you have not kept My covenant and My statutes, which I have commanded you, I will surely tear the kingdom from you, and will give it to your servant. 12 Nevertheless I will not do it in your days for the sake of your father David, but I will tear it out of the hand of your son. 13 However, I will not tear away all the kingdom, but I will give one tribe to your son for the sake of My servant David and for the sake of Jerusalem which I have chosen.”

What is that star called that Jewish people identify with?
That would be the Star of DAVID. Your assessment ignores God's assessment of David.

God never wanted a king for Israel. Israel insisted on it, which God regarded as a rejection of Him

As a result, every king of Israel committed some kind of serious crime or error. Not a single one was perfect. Even Josiah and Hezekiah committed errors that led directly to the Babylonian captivity.

bbbbbbb · Aug 2, 2017

AnticipateHisComing said:
Try this one on, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Broaden the breadth of your knowledge of history and just try to refute what I stated. That would be that kings/dictators oppress their people today, like before. That even in democracies, politicians get away with murder.

Nixon committed no murder. Try the Kennedys or Clintons. Of course I'd like you to prove that no elected politician has ever gotten away with murder.

I'd like you to prove than any elected politician has gotten away with murder. If you can, then you are a far better judge than any we have ever had sitting on the bench.

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