"Infused" or "Imputed"?
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To my way of thinking, (based on personal experience) the obvious distinctive shared among all stripes of Baptists (with the exception of Free Will) is the OSAS doctrine. I know of no classic Pentecostal denom or independant group that will ascribe to that. Indeed, the largest Pentecostal denom, Assy of God, used to fire any pastor that would even suggest such a thing.
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Christ was not “infused’ with our sins nor did Christ bare the intangible “sins” themselves, but did bare the “sin punishment” for all sins while on the cross. Christ did not become sinful.
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Jesus' justification before God is not our justification before God. Correctly going through the atonement process can allow us to be justified before God.
What position are you looking to be justified to hold before God?
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fhansen
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From the Catholic viewpoint man is forgiven, washed, cleansed, made just-formally in baptism, the “sacrament of faith”-and not merely imputed to be just but made truly just, as he was created to be-a fresh start, a new creation as a response of faith to grace, to God’s calling. From there we’re to continue to work out our salvation with He who works in us, depending on what we do with what we’re given: time, opportunities, experience, knowledge, and, most importantly, grace. The Parable of the Talents describes this process well, with repercussions for those, such as the wicked and lazy servant, who refused to "invest". The Thief on the Cross did the best he could with what he had, Peter & Paul did likewise, obviously a great deal more. Luke 12:48 spells out the principle here. And if we continue to sin in serious ways we’re mocking God and the gift He’s given.
God wants to draw us into increasing willingness, wrought by increasing faith in and love for Him and neighbor which translates into increasing justice. We’ll be judged on this love, in fact, at the end, because love is the essence of man’s justice and the image of God we’re to be transformed into, which is why the Greatest Commandments are what they are, and why Matt 25:31-46 can describe acts of love serving as the criteria for separating the sheep from the goats. It all depends on what we do with the gift given. He desires our participation, not because He needs it, but because He wants it, for our own good, to make us something of greater worth ultimately. His purpose with the entire drama of human life, with creation, the Fall, and all the good and evil man has experienced since, is to perfect His creation, His handiwork, with struggle and grace, not merely to select some for salvation and some for eternal torment- a nice free gift for the lucky chosen few perhaps, not so great for the rest- as if that would be a noble, worthy, and just endeavor in itself.
Ever since Adam, man has objected to authority, to an obligation to a superior Being. But man has always been obligated to love because justice demands it; it's simply the "right thing", with love being the only authentic motivation for obedience of God. This is what Adam had to learn and presumably has learned by now; this is what we're all here to learn and accomplish with God's grace.
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When my sister married, she married a Church of God man. We attended Baptist seminary classes together.
To my astonishment, we discovered that the Church of God, maybe just here in North Carolina, share a lot of beliefs with Baptists.
We do, I agree, disagree on two items: OSAS, and "Speaking in tongues".
Other than that, we essentially agree.
But, we also discovered that there is a lot of "doctrines" that plain old ain't taught in the Church of God.
God Bless
Till all are one.
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The Classic Baptist, and Reformed position.
Both "righteous" and "justified" are from the same Greek word.
"This word draws directly from the Hebrew word “tsadag” (tsaw-dak). Which is rendered in the OT as “justify”, “righteous”, “just”, “justice”, “cleansed”, “cleanse ourselves”, “righteousness”.
Looking at the word in the LXX, it is a “forensic” term. Yet in the LXX, the predominate usage does not carry a negative meaning as some Greek usage: (w QemistokleeV, en toisi agwsi oi proexanistamenoi rapizontai. o de apoluomenoV efh oi de ge egkataleipomenoi ou stefanountai.[*]) but is constantly used in the most positive sense of “to pronounce righteous,” “to justify”, “to vindicate”. The forensic element is even stronger in the Masoretic text in that the Masoretic Isa. 42:25 is rendered as they find righteousness with Yahweh, and in the LXX it is rendered that they are declared righteous by him (apo kuriou dikaiw qhsoutai)."
[*] “Themistocles, at the games those who start before the signal are beaten with rods.” Themistocles said in justification. “Those left behind win no crown.” Herodotus, Histories, Book VIII, Chapter 59, A.D. Godfey, Cambridge, Howard University Press, 1920.
The moment I was led to the altar by the Spirit, repented, accepted and believed, I was declared "righteous" and was "justified".
Just like Abraham was.
God Bless
Till all are one.
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- Jun 18, 2014
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I totally understand that. The Baptists seem to have absorbed much of the Wesleyan Holiness practices and doctrines.
But it is the OSAS item that puts you and your BIL from different faith traditions. OSAS is point 5 of Calvinist TULIP - Perseverance of the Saints. And with that comes the other points as well - Total depravity, Unconditional election, Limited atonement and Irresistible grace.
If your BIL was firm in his Church of God faith stream, he would disagree on those points as well.
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Are you saying being righteous and being justified is the same thing?
In the Old Testament you do not find anyone being described as standing justified before God, yet I do feel some could.
In the OT you do find this: Isaiah 53:11 After he has suffered, he will see the light of life and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities
Which suggest this comes in the future with Christ when Christ “see the light”, spends time on earth?
Paul is the one who really drives home the idea of being justified before God in contrast to not being able to be justified under the Law, which suggests to me something different than righteousness.
It seems to me in order to stand “justified” before God you have to humble yourself to the position you can be justified before God, since you could not be “justified” in a high position.
Justification also seems to deal more with cleaning up your past, while righteousness is doing right from now on, under the Law there was no way to clean up intentional sins directly against God and live in the Promised Land. Today we can.
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fhansen
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Abraham was also justified by what he did. Righteousness cannot be separated from, well, righteousness, or justice from justice: "Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work." 1 John 3:8-9. Isa 5:20 can also apply here. Christianity must never be an excuse to feel justified while remaining in sin.
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he-man
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Amos 2:4 For three transgressions and for four, I will not turn away its punishment. Because they have despised the law of the Lord, and have not kept his commandments. THEIR LIES lead them astray, lies which THEIR FATHERS followed.
The word "demon" (or daemon) comes from the Greek daimon which means spirit. In ancient times this term denoted spirits in general , without making a distinction between good or evil.
Devil is also derived from the same Indo-European root word for deva, which roughly translates as "angel". It is esay to see how modern religions falsely adapted the satan to mean fallen angel.
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My brother-in-law told me during seminary that what you call 5-point Calvinism, namely the doctrine of election, was never taught.
Even though it is in scripture, he had never heard of it until seminary.
God Bless
Till all are one.
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Let me quote my paper again:
"Our Greek word has its root in the Greek word “dikh”. This word means “right”, “justice”; in the NT, judicial punishment, vengeance; 2 Thes. 1:9; Jude 7; sentence of punishment, judgment, Acts 25:15; personified, the goddess of justice or vengeance, Nemesis, Paena, Acts 28:4.
This word draws directly from the Hebrew word “tsadag” (tsaw-dak). Which is rendered in the OT as “justify”, “righteous”, “just”, “justice”, “cleansed”, “cleanse ourselves”, “righteousness”.
Plato links “dikaiow” with “dikh” saying it denotes obligations to men and to God, and therefore indicates “one who fulfills obligations towards men,” fulfillment of religious duties often attributed to this by such terms as : osioV, eusebhV, qeopilhV, qeosebhV. [1]
Looking at the word in the LXX, it is a “forensic” term. Yet in the LXX, the predominate usage does not carry a negative meaning as some Greek usage: (w QemistokleeV, en toisi agwsi oi proexanistamenoi rapizontai. o de apoluomenoV efh oi de ge egkataleipomenoi ou stefanountai.[2]) but is constantly used in the most positive sense of “to pronounce righteous,” “to justify”, “to vindicate”. The forensic element is even stronger in the Masoretic text in that the Masoretic Isa. 42:25 is rendered as they find righteousness with Yahweh, and in the LXX it is rendered that they are declared righteous by him (apo kuriou dikaiw qhsoutai).
The LXX uses dikaioun in these ways which should be noted:
1. (a). Active (hiphil)- “to declare someone as righteous,” “to acquit someone,” “to secure justice for him.” According to the legal custom of Israel, this “dikaioun” may not apply for the “asebhV” (wicked) cf. Ex. 23:7; Isa. 5:23. Only the “just” (dikaioV) may be declared righteous (cf. Deut. 25:1), materially: “oV dikaion krinei ton adikon de ton dikaion” (Prov. 17:15); and from the religious standpoint: “kurioV krinei laouV krinon me kurie kata thn dikaioswnhn mou kai kata thn akakian mou ep emoi” (cf. Psa. 7:9).
(b). Tar (pi)- “to prove to be innocent or righteous” Jer. 3:11: “edikaiwsen thn fuchn autou israhl apo thV asunqetou Iouda,” “it has shown itself more righteous than” Ezek. 16:51: “edikaiiwaV taV adelfaV sou” “thou hast justified thy sisters”.
2. Passive a. Of the vindication or right conduct of man (especially the chosen people) in relation to Yahweh: Isa. 43:9: “dikaiwqhtwsan; ina dikaiwqhV” (vs. 26). Related is the usage in Psa. 142:2: “oti ou dikaiwqhsetai enwpion sou pas zwn,” the LXX renders “no one can be pronounced righteous (justified) before God’s judgment,” this clearly makes the Masoretic sharper (nothing living is righteous in thy sight), here it is asserted not only universal sinfulness but the impossibility of justification. In Gal. 2:16, and in Rom. 3:20, Paul adds: “ex ergwn nomou” which shows that the Psa. 142:2 passage had an impact on Paul’s understanding of justification.
3. Passive in the intransitive sense: “dikaiwqhnai” as a translation of the Hebrew word in Gen. 44:16 where Judah asks: “ti dikaiwqwmen” “how shall we (justify) clean ourselves?”
Plato also links “dikaiaoV” with ethics for whom righteousness is a distinctly political virtue, it is firmly anchored in the soul of men, who inwardly comes to what is proper to himself, to inner order and the harmony of spiritual virtues. (Resp. IV, 443c ff)"
[1] Plato, Gorgias, 507b; Polybius: dikaia with dsia. Histories, XXII, 10, 8
[2] “Themistocles, at the games those who start before the signal are beaten with rods.” Themistocles said in justification. “Those left behind win no crown.” Herodotus, Histories, Book VIII, Chapter 59, A.D. Godfey, Cambridge, Howard University Press, 1920."
God Bless
Till all are one.
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I submit for your approval:
"We Believe:
- In the verbal inspiration of the Bible.
- In one God eternally existing in three persons; namely, the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.
- That Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of the Father, conceived of the Holy Ghost, and born of the Virgin Mary. That Jesus was crucified, buried, and raised from the dead. That He ascended to heaven and is today at the right hand of the Father as the Intercessor.
- That all have sinned and come short of the glory of God and that repentance is commanded of God for all and necessary for forgiveness of sins.
- That justification, regeneration, and the new birth are wrought by faith in the blood of Jesus Christ.
- In sanctification subsequent to the new birth, through faith in the blood of Christ; through the Word, and by the Holy Ghost.
- Holiness to be God's standard of living for His people.
- In the baptism with the Holy Ghost subsequent to a clean heart.(*)
- In speaking with other tongues as the Spirit gives utterance and that it is the initial evidence of the baptism of the Holy Ghost.(*)
- In water baptism by immersion, and all who repent should be baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
- Divine healing is provided for all in the atonement.(*)
- In the Lord's Supper and washing of the saints' feet.
- In the premillennial second coming of Jesus. First, to resurrect the righteous dead and to catch away the living saints to Him in the air. Second, to reign on the earth a thousand years.
- In the bodily resurrection; eternal life for the righteous, and eternal punishment for the wicked."
With the exception of the (*), the Church of God believes much along the lines as Baptists.
And also, there are a lot of the doctrines taught in Baptist churches that were/are never taught in most CoG.
God Bless
Till all are one.
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So I am assuming the CoG is of the Cleveland TN variety and not the Anderson IN denom. (due to your items marked *)
The list (minus your marked line items and the pre-mil statement) should play well in ANY protestant church (and probably should play somewhat well in catholic and orthodox circles as well). Those are just backbone christian beliefs.
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he-man
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You said the one who is sinful is of the devil. I told you there is no personal devil, supernatural or otherwise. Luke 4:13 says the slanderer desisted and not a real devil or spirit. Job 5:18 says God is the One who wounds and is the One who uses destruction to achieve His plans.
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