Prevenient Grace

DeaconDean

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Oh well, I know what certain people think of me, I just wanted to point out what I thought was irregular.

I'll bow out now.

I return you to your regularly scheduled discussion.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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Jwlickliter

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Those are Phoebe's words.

Oh ok. I think I'm understanding this better.

Not to step on toes here but I do understand from the bible that Paul maybe is an elect where there are also people in church who stay in the pews doing things for God.

Just seems there are a few people in the world that God just built a little different than the regular believer.

Seems even after the bible was written there are just some people with big ideas for god.
 
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sdowney717

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Why do the scriptures use such language (in literally scores of places) ... when the more direct truth (according to Calvinists) ... is that "whosoever the Lord predetermines shall be saved."
Scripture also says
Romans 3
9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.

10 As it is written:

“There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”
 
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sdowney717

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We can't choose to follow Christ?

I thought God or Satan can't take away choice? Satan likes to make the selection a lot with technology but can't make us choose anything. Now I agree we might have a hard time doing nothing but we don't choose it?

If your getting at the fact I don't choose every heart beat? There are somethings going on that I didn't choose but not sure if this is the same thing here?
People can not make a choice when they are unaware the genuine truth exists.
So Christ just becomes foolishness to the natural mind. They do not receive because they can not know.

2 Corinthians 4

3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,

4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus’ sake.

6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 2

9 But as it is written:

“Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”

10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them,because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.
 
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Jwlickliter

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Scripture also says
Romans 3
9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.

10 As it is written:

“There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”


Yeah looking at my past this describes me very well. I'm still pretty sure I made a choice somewhere though.

It happens to me a lot but I get this feeling ever now and again it's like I been here before. Sometimes people say things to me that i don't understand at the moment but blew my mind and in the future I remember looking back on it and it starts making sense.

This might be a bad explanation. I tried to describe the best I could.
 
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sdowney717

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Yeah looking at my past this describes me very well. I'm still pretty sure I made a choice somewhere though.

It happens to me a lot but I get this feeling ever now and again it's like I been here before. Sometimes people say things to me that i don't understand at the moment but blew my mind and in the future I remember looking back on it and it starts making sense.

This might be a bad explanation. I tried to describe the best I could.

You must be born again Jesus says, to see and enter the kingdom of God.
See would mean understand. You will then bear good fruit to God with understanding.

Because the natural mind is enmity against God.
The natural mind is blinded by Satan.
The natural mind are those who are 'in the flesh', and they can not please God.
You must become a spiritually alive man to know and receive spiritual things.
Then you will call on Christ to save you, otherwise Christ is foolishness and you just wont believe Him or follow Him.

God gives you this understanding by making you born of Him.
1 John 5:20
And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

While those who are of this world have no understanding of spiritual truth in Christ.
Ephesians 4:17-19New King James Version (NKJV)

17 This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind, 18 having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart; 19 who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lewdness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
 
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Wordkeeper

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Scripture also says
Romans 3
9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.

10 As it is written:

“There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”


That's right, all types of people, corporate, groups, not individuals.
 
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Rescued One

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Augustine, Calvin, and I understand your very biblical position well. Arminius - not so much.

I would have to agree, but I feel as though I need to learn a whole lot more. And Calvin's teachings make Arminians angry! I'm not sure I understand that except with Mormons and I, of course, know why.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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I would have to agree, but I feel as though I need to learn a whole lot more. And Calvin's teachings make Arminians angry! I'm not sure I understand that except with Mormons and I, of course, know why.

Don't worry about haters. Arminians and Pelagians have been hating on me since 2005.
 
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Rescued One

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Now you said previously:



And yet, you end your post saying you believe in _________ .

"Those are my reasons."

There is something wrong here.

"Prevenient Grace", even though you attribute it to John Wesley, is a product of "Arminian/Remonstrant" theology.

Jacobus Arminus wrote:

"Concerning grace and free will, this is what I teach according to the Scriptures and orthodox consent: Free will is unable to begin or to perfect any true and spiritual good, without grace...This grace goes before, accompanies, and follows; it excites, assists, operates that we will, and co-operates lest we will in vain."

The Works of James Arminus, Volume II, Grace and Free Will

Arminus' died almost 100 years before John Wesley was even born.

Believe it or not sister, your letting Arminus define your beliefs. :D

God Bless

Till all are one.

I don't follow Wesley's teachings or Arminius' teachings. I know that Wesley came along much later. Research is one of my passions.
 
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Rescued One

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Don't worry about haters. Arminians and Pelagians have been hating on me since 2005.

Why would I want my best friend and my daughter to hate me? Criticism from those online is like water off a duck's back.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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OrthodoxyUSA

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Reformed Theology sees prevenient grace as regeneration, as it concerns Soteriology.

Non Reformed Theology sees it more as freeing the will to be able to believe, but not necessarily regeneration. As I understand it, it's agreed that we are dead in sin, but God does something to us to enable us to believe, though the choice to believe is still ours to make.

I am more than willing to accept a better definition if someone would like to provide it. This is just my understanding as I've pieced it together through the years.

The question is, is this a biblical concept, and if so, what scripture would be used to support it?


Toomanyology for me man.

Forgive me...
 
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jimmyjimmy

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Why would I want my best friend and my daughter to hate me? Criticism from those online is like water off a duck's back.

My comment was bit tongue in cheek; however, mustn't all Christians suffer for the truth?
 
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Rescued One

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Yeah looking at my past this describes me very well. I'm still pretty sure I made a choice somewhere though.

It happens to me a lot but I get this feeling ever now and again it's like I been here before. Sometimes people say things to me that i don't understand at the moment but blew my mind and in the future I remember looking back on it and it starts making sense.

This might be a bad explanation. I tried to describe the best I could.

Our choices depend on whether we know Christ or don't know Him and Who gave us the wisdom to know truth?

John 10
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

 
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My comment was bit tongue in cheek; however, mustn't all Christians suffer for the truth?

Let me suffer. I still cherish my relationships and pray for others to be in God's will.
 
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HatGuy

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Believe what?
The Gospel of Jesus Christ. Or, I should have probably rather said, "believe 'Him'".

In what way? In that all schools believe in some kind of PG?
Yes. But also that not all those who subscribe to 'prevenient grace' will subscribe to a kind-of universalism as you laid it out.
 
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Jwlickliter

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People can not make a choice when they are unaware the genuine truth exists.
So Christ just becomes foolishness to the natural mind. They do not receive because they can not know.

2 Corinthians 4

3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,

4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus’ sake.

6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 2

9 But as it is written:

“Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”

10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them,because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

Don't think I can argue or point out anything wrong with that.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

You do realize that countless millions have died without ever hearing the gospel, right?

Yes. But also that not all those who subscribe to 'prevenient grace' will subscribe to a kind-of universalism as you laid it out.

I didn't say, "Universalism". I said: universal.
 
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