Exodus 4:24

Devin P · Jul 30, 2017

So in my reading, I have come across a couple of questions.

So, in Exodus 4:24 God tries to kill moses.

Right before this, God introduced himself to Moses, and told him what he was to say to Pharaoh. Now, because Moses was 80, and had an entire lifetime of having a speaking problem, he doubted himself and ultimately God. Which is why Aaron was sent along with him.

My first question is, since Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, all had tremendous faith, and were justified by that faith and not them keeping their end of the covenant (keeping the laws and the circumcision) - would the fact that Moses lacked faith in God, and himself, have caused God to seek to lay his wrath upon Moses, because he had not kept the covenant and had not yet circumcised his child?

He himself wasn't circumcised, and due to God's promise, was bound to keep the law, but because he (prior to this new responsibility) had faith in God, he was in right standing with God. Which his lack of faith, took him out of - hence God trying to kill him in Exodus 4:24. We then learn that his wife Zipporah saved him, because of her faith in Exodus 4:25-26.

My second, and most important question is... if we doubt, that which we ask for, are we then no longer solidified in salvation? Or do you think Christ's sacrifice, paid for our sins permanently, regardless of if we doubt our own, and consequently God's abilities? What I mean by this is pretend we're in this situation:

We have the chance to spread the gospel to someone, but for some reason, we can't get through it without showing nervousness, and because of it, they are weirded out, and aren't as receptive as they would be (weird scenario, but bear with me).

Would this doubt in ourselves, and the promises God and Christ made to us (in the sense that our fear should be cast out so long as we pray and have faith), cause us to - as Moses did - lose our right standing? Or do you think Christ makes it so he's more lenient than that, and will give us time to develop our faith? As I'm typing this portion of this thread, some verses are coming to mind that indeed say he's more understanding than that. But, this verse, makes no sense in any other context than the one I suggested up above. I've thought on this for a couple days now, as the seeming randomness of it bugged me and I had no choice but to meditate on it. Thank you for any and all responses. <3

jax5434 · Jul 30, 2017

In Exodus 4:24 Gods issue with Moses was a lack of obedience-not a deficiency in his faith. He had failed to keep Gods ordinance of circumcision for his son. As you point out it was Zipporahs actions that saved Moses not some returning too, or increase in his faith.

As far as losing your "right standing" with God it simply isn't possible if you are truly saved. Why? Because your righteousness before God is not based on your own merits but because God imputes Jesus' righteousness to you. For you to lose right standing before God Jesus would have to somehow lose his righteousness; which just is not possible.
You will still sin and need to repent but your status with God will not change.
God Bless
Jax

visionary · Jul 31, 2017

jax5434 said:
In Exodus 4:24 Gods issue with Moses was a lack of obedience-not a deficiency in his faith. He had failed to keep Gods ordinance of circumcision for his son. As you point out it was Zipporahs actions that saved Moses not some returning too, or increase in his faith.

As far as losing your "right standing" with God it simply isn't possible if you are truly saved. Why? Because your righteousness before God is not based on your own merits but because God imputes Jesus' righteousness to you. For you to lose right standing before God Jesus would have to somehow lose his righteousness; which just is not possible.
You will still sin and need to repent but your status with God will not change.
God Bless
Jax

Aw... doesn't that take responsibility for your walk out of your hands, which Yeshua never wanted. We are to be responsible for your choices. In Moses' case, his responsibility, as pointed out by his wife, has a lot to do with him being a role model and failing.

Heber Book List · Jul 31, 2017

Read Matthew 7 and Hebrews 6

Devin P · Jul 31, 2017

jax5434 said:
In Exodus 4:24 Gods issue with Moses was a lack of obedience-not a deficiency in his faith. He had failed to keep Gods ordinance of circumcision for his son. As you point out it was Zipporahs actions that saved Moses not some returning too, or increase in his faith.

As far as losing your "right standing" with God it simply isn't possible if you are truly saved. Why? Because your righteousness before God is not based on your own merits but because God imputes Jesus' righteousness to you. For you to lose right standing before God Jesus would have to somehow lose his righteousness; which just is not possible.
You will still sin and need to repent but your status with God will not change.
God Bless
Jax

I wasn't implying that his being saved was due to an increase in faith. I was saying that he was saved because of the faith of his wife. He had lost faith (due to being insecure in his own ability to speak and be worthy enough of his mission and consequently not having faith in God's supremacy over his creation, it angered God, which then God said in response this in Exodus 4:11)

It's not that Moses was saved because he increased his faith, but that's why the Lord was going to smite him. He not only hadn't kept the covenant, but lost the very thing that kept him righteous before God, his faith. It's what made Abraham righteous, and Isaac and Jacob before him. His faith was not placed in God's sovereignty, but on his own ability (or inability in this case).

His wife however, was righteous enough to realize his mistake, to realize that it was God that would take him through these trials. And upon realizing why the Lord sought to smite him, she justified Moses by completing the covenant, due to her faith. Thereby, Moses was justified, by the faith of his wife. Not by increasing his faith. My bad if my writing made that hard to understand. I have a weird way of wording things. Do you understand what I mean though?

jax5434 · Jul 31, 2017

Devin P said:
I wasn't implying that his being saved was due to an increase in faith. I was saying that he was saved because of the faith of his wife. He had lost faith (due to being insecure in his own ability to speak and be worthy enough of his mission and consequently not having faith in God's supremacy over his creation, it angered God, which then God said in response this in Exodus 4:11)

It's not that Moses was saved because he increased his faith, but that's why the Lord was going to smite him. He not only hadn't kept the covenant, but lost the very thing that kept him righteous before God, his faith. It's what made Abraham righteous, and Isaac and Jacob before him. His faith was not placed in God's sovereignty, but on his own ability (or inability in this case).

His wife however, was righteous enough to realize his mistake, to realize that it was God that would take him through these trials. And upon realizing why the Lord sought to smite him, she justified Moses by completing the covenant, due to her faith. Ther

Devin P said:

I wasn't implying that his being saved was due to an increase in faith. I was saying that he was saved because of the faith of his wife. He had lost faith (due to being insecure in his own ability to speak and be worthy enough of his mission and consequently not having faith in God's supremacy over his creation, it angered God, which then God said in response this in Exodus 4:11)

It's not that Moses was saved because he increased his faith, but that's why the Lord was going to smite him. He not only hadn't kept the covenant, but lost the very thing that kept him righteous before God, his faith. It's what made Abraham righteous, and Isaac and Jacob before him. His faith was not placed in God's sovereignty, but on his own ability (or inability in this case).

His wife however, was righteous enough to realize his mistake, to realize that it was God that would take him through these trials. And upon realizing why the Lord sought to smite him, she justified Moses by completing the covenant, due to her faith. Thereby, Moses was justified, by the faith of his wife. Not by increasing his faith. My bad if my writing made that hard to understand. I have a weird way of wording things. Do you understand what I mean though?

Click to expand...

eby, Moses was justified, by the faith of his wife. Not by increasing his faith. My bad if my writing made that hard to understand. I have a weird way of wording things. Do you understand what I mean though?

I understand what you mean but I think you are mistaken in some of your assumptions.
You maintain that God was going to kill Moses because of his lack of faith. But the issue is not faith but obedience. Moses had not kept the sign of the Abrahamic covenant.
Zipporah performed the outward circumcision because she recognized the root of Gods anger. But Zipporah was not a Jewess. She was the daughter of Jethro, regarded as the founder of the Druze faith. Her disgust at what God required (exodus 4:26) would indicate that she did not see what she had done as act of faith. Her actions appeased God so that he did not kill Moses.

Also there is no indication any where in scripture that someone can be saved by anothers faith. Everyone has an individual relationship with God and that requires an individual faith.

Dave-W · Jul 31, 2017

Heber Book List said:
Read Matthew 7 and Hebrews 6

I am sure that is EXACTLY what Zipporah told Moses.

Heber Book List · Jul 31, 2017

jax5434 said:
I understand what you mean but I think you are mistaken in some of your assumptions.
You maintain that God was going to kill Moses because of his lack of faith. But the issue is not faith but obedience. Moses had not kept the sign of the Abrahamic covenant.
Zipporah performed the outward circumcision because she recognized the root of Gods anger. But Zipporah was not a Jewess. She was the daughter of Jethro, regarded as the founder of the Druze faith. Her disgust at what God required (exodus 4:26) would indicate that she did not see what she had done as act of faith. Her actions appeased God so that he did not kill Moses.

Also there is no indication any where in scripture that someone can be saved by anothers faith. Everyone has an individual relationship with God and that requires an individual faith.

Ezekiel 18 makes it clear that we are, each of us, responsible for our own sins. Substitution is not permitted.

Devin P · Jul 31, 2017

jax5434 said:
I understand what you mean but I think you are mistaken in some of your assumptions.
You maintain that God was going to kill Moses because of his lack of faith. But the issue is not faith but obedience. Moses had not kept the sign of the Abrahamic covenant.
Zipporah performed the outward circumcision because she recognized the root of Gods anger. But Zipporah was not a Jewess. She was the daughter of Jethro, regarded as the founder of the Druze faith. Her disgust at what God required (exodus 4:26) would indicate that she did not see what she had done as act of faith. Her actions appeased God so that he did not kill Moses.

Also there is no indication any where in scripture that someone can be saved by anothers faith. Everyone has an individual relationship with God and that requires an individual faith.

1 Corinthians 7:14 states:

For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

Her faith -

and I say faith because even as you said, she recognized the root of God's anger, and upheld that which Moses didn't -

Therefore her faith, was the only thing that saved Moses. He was sanctified by the faith of his wife.

jax5434 · Jul 31, 2017

Devin P said:
1 Corinthians 7:14 states:

For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

Her faith -

and I say faith because even as you said, she recognized the root of God's anger, and upheld that which Moses didn't -

Therefore her faith, was the only thing that saved Moses. He was sanctified by the faith of his wife.

Once again: Moses was not unbelieving-he was being disobedient. His life was spared because of Zipporah's actions but he was not sanctified thru it. As Heber Book List correctly points out in post #13

Heber Book List said:
Ezekiel 18 makes it clear that we are, each of us, responsible for our own sins. Substitution is not permitted.

As long as you insist on seeing this episode as an issue of faith your exegesis is going to be faulty.
God Bless
Jax

Heber Book List · Aug 1, 2017

Devin P said:
1 Corinthians 7:14 states:

For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

Her faith -

and I say faith because even as you said, she recognized the root of God's anger, and upheld that which Moses didn't -

Therefore her faith, was the only thing that saved Moses. He was sanctified by the faith of his wife.

The application of the verse, to this issue, is not really on solid ground - this simple logic, if applied, would mean that every mixed married couple automatically become believers - a good example of eisegesis.

The text applies to a marriage between a believer and a non-believer. The believer in the marriage does not automatically save the unbeliever, but he / she must work at converting the unbeliever, by which the unbeliever will believe. If this works the children will be believers, too. If the unbeliever does not like this, and walks away, then, says Paul, so be it. It is better that, than all the family is lost to the Kingdom.

However, Biblical teaching is against a mixed marriage in this way, for these very reasons - there is always the risk that the believer will lose their faith, instead of gaining their wife / husband, plus children, as believers. The world, today, is full of such relationships, and is one of the greatest drains on Christian numbers.

Heber Book List · Aug 1, 2017

Re the 2nd part of the OP - we are required to speak the word to the world - if people choose not to heed that word then their blood is not on our hands. If we are nervous or hesitant in speaking the word, then the answer is, really, to keep going. It is an affliction that the enemy loves to impose on us but, by prayer, it can be overcome - as Yeshua explained when his disciples returned, having been unable to carry through their Commission, and a man complained to Yeshua that they were not doing their job properly, and demanded to speak to the boss about them; only prayer can bring these things to be fulfilled.

It is not easy to witness at times. Often it is about taking people on from where they are to the next stage, just by conversation with them. Forcing G_d down their throat will not work, and it is not Yeshua's model, either. To some people the gift of a full blown evangelist has been given - to others a softer way of evangelising is more appropriate, the key is that you are obeying the Royal Decree at the end of Matthew's gospel, you are being obedient to G_d. The whole Bible is scattered with people who were hesitant. We are not all called to be an Isaiah or Peter or Paul - in fact Paul never mentions evangelism, he just gets on with it whenever and wherever G_d puts an opening in his life. He's a good role model to follow.

Devin P · Aug 1, 2017

Heber Book List said:
The application of the verse, to this issue, is not really on solid ground - this simple logic, if applied, would mean that every mixed married couple automatically become believers - a good example of eisegesis.

The text applies to a marriage between a believer and a non-believer. The believer in the marriage does not automatically save the unbeliever, but he / she must work at converting the unbeliever, by which the unbeliever will believe. If this works the children will be believers, too. If the unbeliever does not like this, and walks away, then, says Paul, so be it. It is better that, than all the family is lost to the Kingdom.

However, Biblical teaching is against a mixed marriage in this way, for these very reasons - there is always the risk that the believer will lose their faith, instead of gaining their wife / husband, plus children, as believers. The world, today, is full of such relationships, and is one of the greatest drains on Christian numbers.

I'd have to disagree here. Her faith very clearly shown by her decision to obey the Lord and step up to fulfill what her husband didn't is ultimately what saved Moses. Her faith. The bible describes faith as trust in the father to such an extent that it results in action.

This is shown when Abraham doesn't withhold his son from Yah, and it was credited as righteousness, and it's why faith without works is dead.

I'd argue that it is applicable here, because it's not just talking about what you say. There's two situations. People who lack belief (and or faith/trust in God - as shown in the original Greek) that enjoy living with a believing spouse and those that hate it and leave. Moses and his wife clearly enjoy living together, and in the verses preceding this text he showed a lack of trust in God - which then caused his anger to kindle towards Moses.

There's no definitive way to know when Moses and Zipporah had Eliezer (trust me I've searched) BUT, Moses was in the strange land for 40 years. Eliezer means God is my help, and he named him that because he was delivered out of Pharoh's hand, so it's safe to assume that it was relatively soon after he had gotten established in the land he sojourned in.

And up until this point, God hadn't sought to smite him for his failure to uphold the covenant. He only did so after Moses displayed his lack of trust in the Father.

Even if they did have the child right before they were to leave for Egypt, he still showed a lack of trust in God for not upholding the covenant and not trusting that the Lord would give him the ability to talk will enough to do that which he was called - and was still ultimately saved by the faith of his wife. The idea of his wife's faith saving him and giving him right standing with God, isn't just an idea, it's very clear in the scripture. Her faith, ultimately saved him. Had she not had faith enough to cut the foreskin off of her son and throw it on Moses, he would've died. Her action is what put peace between Moses and the Lord.

Heber Book List · Aug 1, 2017

Devin P said:
I'd have to disagree here. Her faith very clearly shown by her decision to obey the Lord and step up to fulfill what her husband didn't is ultimately what saved Moses. Her faith. The bible describes faith as trust in the father to such an extent that it results in action.

This is shown when Abraham doesn't withhold his son from Yah, and it was credited as righteousness, and it's why faith without works is dead.

I'd argue that it is applicable here, because it's not just talking about what you say. There's two situations. People who lack belief (and or faith/trust in God - as shown in the original Greek) that enjoy living with a believing spouse and those that hate it and leave. Moses and his wife clearly enjoy living together, and in the verses preceding this text he showed a lack of trust in God - which then caused his anger to kindle towards Moses.

There's no definitive way to know when Moses and Zipporah had Eliezer (trust me I've searched) BUT, Moses was in the strange land for 40 years. Eliezer means God is my help, and he named him that because he was delivered out of Pharoh's hand, so it's safe to assume that it was relatively soon after he had gotten established in the land he sojourned in.

And up until this point, God hadn't sought to smite him for his failure to uphold the covenant. He only did so after Moses displayed his lack of trust in the Father.

Even if they did have the child right before they were to leave for Egypt, he still showed a lack of trust in God for not upholding the covenant and not trusting that the Lord would give him the ability to talk will enough to do that which he was called - and was still ultimately saved by the faith of his wife. The idea of his wife's faith saving him and giving him right standing with God, isn't just an idea, it's very clear in the scripture. Her faith, ultimately saved him. Had she not had faith enough to cut the foreskin off of her son and throw it on Moses, he would've died. Her action is what put peace between Moses and the Lord.

It would seem to me that you are writing about the Exodus reading, whereas I was writing about your post #9

Devin P · Aug 1, 2017

Heber Book List said:
It would seem to me that you are writing about the Exodus reading, whereas I was writing about your post #9

Gotcha. Yeah, I responded to your first message, which was properly responded to, as you were referring to what I responded to.

The second message you sent though, that was responding to a hypothetical situation, which is why I didn't respond. I used the situation you responded to as a hypothetical to make a point, but you accidentally took it literally xD It's cool though, things happen.

The long message I responded with was in context to the husbands and wives sanctifying their spouses who lack trust in God or don't believe all together.

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