Luther vs Catholic Church

Goatee · Jul 31, 2017

redleghunter said:
Good point. As I pointed out in another post, Irenaeus found the Gnostics particularly slippery as they claimed their own apostolic tradition, claimed it was vivâ voce and derided the Scriptures as corrupted.

Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies / Adversus Haereses, Book 3 (Roberts-Donaldson translation)

Yes, Irenaeus was a great man. A true saint, venerated by the Catholic Church.

Goatee · Jul 31, 2017

amariselle said:
What a strange response. All of the things I listed are, in fact, things officially taught by the Catholic Church. I am hardly ignorant of that fact.

So, the Bible is incorrect then when it says that Christ "by Himself purged our sins" and that the sacrifice of Christ on the cross is sufficient once for all? (When we receive it by faith).

An act of remembrance, especially remembrance of the one time and all sufficient sacrifice of Christ on the cross to take away the sins of the world, hardly "means nothing." Do you suppose that all those who lovingly and reverently take communion in remembrance of the One Who freed us from sin and its punishment, consider their commemoration pointless or meaningless? Hardly!

How is Christ being offered on a thousand Catholic alters over and over and over again at every Mass, and yet the Bible tells us the sacrifice for sin was once and for all on the cross and "it is finished!" Also, how is Jesus, as the Bible says, ascended into Heaven and seated at the right hand of the Father (in His resurection body) and yet somehow His pre-resurrection body is being offered on so many Catholic alters over and over again, without end?

Either the sacrifice for sin occurred once for all, on the cross, and is finished (as the Bible says) or it is not actually finished and must be continually offered up again and again (as the Catholic Church claims it is doing). I cannot be both. As such, I'll stick with Scripture.

What's that supposed to mean? Are you suggesting that if one doesn't accept the Catholic "Marion doctrines" that one does not believe that Jesus was God???

Fair enough, you do not need to address it. I've studied Catholic teachings on Indulgences compared to Scripture, they don't agree. (Again, it comes down to the one time, all sufficient sacrifice for sin of Christ on the cross.)

Yes, all sin is "mortal", the Bible makes no such distinction (between venial and mortal sin).

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." - Romans 6:23

All believers are "saints". Passed from death to life. And they will be with God in eternity.

I understand it perfectly well. I can read the Catechism and Catholic teachings you know. Quite frankly I am getting more than tired of this pat response of "you're not Catholic, so you just don't get it!" It is nothing more than a convenient and dismissive response that allows for the complete avoidance of the issues.

God bless.

Your replies show your lack of knowledge of Catholicism

Goatee · Jul 31, 2017

Albion said:
What doctrines has she identified here that only she believes, out of all the Christians in the world??

Check out what she has stated 'she's thinks are doctrinely wrong in the Catholic Church which in effect says that only 'she' is correct and led by the Holy Spirit and that the Catholic Church is not!

Goatee · Jul 31, 2017

amariselle said:
Did you read what I actually wrote?

I said, God does not contradict Himself and He is not the Author of confusion. The Holy Spirit inspired the Scriptures. This is why we are to go to the word of God for discernment. Any teachings or traditions that do not agree with the Bible must be rejected.

But, the Church, people on here, have given you scripture again and again to support your arguments but you reject them! This must mean that only YOU have the Holy Spirit?!

amariselle · Jul 31, 2017

Goatee said:
Your replies show your lack of knowledge of Catholicism

Yep, there's that pat answer again! Predictable.

Goatee · Jul 31, 2017

amariselle said:
Yep, there's that pat answer again! Predictable.

Yep, you don't surprise us my dear friend!

Albion · Jul 31, 2017

Goatee said:
Check out what she has stated 'she's thinks are doctrinely wrong in the Catholic Church which in effect says that only 'she' is correct and led by the Holy Spirit and that the Catholic Church is not!

I didn't think you could point to any. That's because there aren't any.

amariselle · Jul 31, 2017

Goatee said:
But, the Church, people on here, have given you scripture again and again to support your arguments but you reject them! This must mean that only YOU have the Holy Spirit?!

Actually, there has not once been a single bit of Scripture that supports any of the central Catholic doctrines I have addressed. I have, however, provided Scripture after Scripture that disagrees with Catholic Doctrine and tradition.

The response is either to say "you're not Catholic, so you don't understand!" or "You're just ignorant and your posts demonstrate that fact!" Yet the content of my posts and the Scriptures I share are never addressed.

Here's an example:

amariselle said:
I never said that individuals in the Catholic Church are not "filled with the Holy Spirit", so don't go there. My issue is with the official doctrines and teachings of the Catholic Church that contradict the word of God (which the Holy Spirit inspired men to write). God does not contradict Himself and is not the author of confusion. Therefore it is impossible for me to believe that on the one hand the Holy Spirit inspired what is written in Scripture, and then turned around and contradicted Scripture with the Traditions and teachings of the Catholic Church. For example:

It is finished! (John 19:28-30)
It is "the Lamb of God (Jesus) who takes away the sins of the world. - (John 1:29)
Christ by Himself purged our sins. (Hebrews 1:1-3)
We are "sanctified"/freed from sin/purified by the sacrifice of Christ ("the offering of the body of Christ") once for all. - Hebrews 10:10

Also, Paul wrote (2 Corinthians 5:8) that to be absent with the body is to be present with the Lord. Not that to be absent from the body is to go to Purgatory, for an unknown amount of time, to have remaining sins "purified." The Scripture is clear, Christ's one Sacrifice is in fact enough to purge all sins.

But, according to the official teachings and tradition of the Catholic Church and the Catechism, He did not, "by Himself" purge our sins. Apparently Christ's sacrifice is not as sufficient and all encompassing and complete as Scripture tells us. So which is correct? The Bible, or the Catechism of the Catholic Church?

III. The Final Purification, or Purgatory

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." - 2 Corinthians 5:17

I shared Scripture and quoted the Catholic Catechism. Care to address the disagreement between the two?

Goatee · Jul 31, 2017

Albion said:
I didn't think you could point to any. That's because there aren't any.

Aren't any what?

Goatee · Jul 31, 2017

amariselle said:
Actually, there has not once been a single bit of Scripture that supports any of the central Catholic doctrines I have addressed. I have, however, provided Scripture after Scripture that disagrees with Catholic Doctrine and tradition.

The response is either to say "you're not Catholic, so you don't understand!" or "You're just ignorant and your posts demonstrate that fact!" Yet the content of my posts and the Scriptures I share are never addressed.

Here's an example:

I shared Scripture and quoted the Catholic Catechism. Care to address the disagreement between the two?

Others pointed out our belief in purgatory with scripture but you ignored them as usual!

Goatee · Jul 31, 2017

PURGATORY IN SCRIPTURE:

But nothing unclean shall enter [heaven]" (Rev. 21:27).

Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny (Matthew 5:25-26).
You
For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble—each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. I Corinthians 3:11-15

2 Maccabees 12:46: “Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from sin.”

amariselle · Jul 31, 2017

Goatee said:
Others pointed out our belief in purgatory with scripture but you ignored them as usual!

No, they did not. There is no Scripture that speaks of a place called "Purgatory" where faithful believers must go for an unknown amount of time to have their sins purged.

Most importantly, the Bible tells us that Christ by Himself purged our sins. His one time sacrifice on the cross, received by faith, it entirely sufficient to wash away our sins.

But, it's as I thought, you are not willing to address the Scripture I shared as compared to what the Catholic Catechism teaches.

Albion · Jul 31, 2017

Goatee said:
But nothing unclean shall enter [heaven]" (Rev. 21:27).

YOU may think that this has to mean Purgatory, but it is much more likely that it means that God forgives penitent sinners through Faith in Christ.

Albion · Jul 31, 2017

amariselle said:
No, they did not. There is no Scripture that speaks of a place called "Purgatory" where faithful believers must go for an unknown amount of time to have their sins purged.

That's very true. Even the passage in 2Maccabees that is often cited as evidence does not indicate that there is any such place or that the departed can be prayed into heaven.

Goatee · Jul 31, 2017

Albion said:
YOU may think that this has to mean Purgatory, but it is much more likely that it means that God forgives penitent sinners through Faith in Christ.

Opinions / views/ interpretations. Catholic Church has to be wrong according to non CATHOLICS!

Goatee · Jul 31, 2017

Albion said:
That's very true. Even the passage in 2Maccabees that is often cited as evidence does not indicate that there is any such place or that the departed can be prayed into heaven.

Again, YOUR view / opinion etc

Albion · Jul 31, 2017

Goatee said:
Opinions / views/ interpretations. Catholic Church has to be wrong according to non CATHOLICS!

I am always amused to hear that one used...as though Non-Catholics who are well-versed in Catholic teaching and history must know nothing, but anyone who has been a member of the Catholic Church for a week simply must be considered a theologian. ^_^

Goatee · Jul 31, 2017

Albion said:
I am always amused to hear that one used...as though Non-Catholics who are well-versed in Catholic teaching and history must know nothing, but anyone who has been a member of the Catholic Church for a week simply must be considered a theologian.

You consider yourself a theologian do you?

amariselle · Jul 31, 2017

Goatee said:
PURGATORY IN SCRIPTURE:

But nothing unclean shall enter [heaven]" (Rev. 21:27).

Yeah, that does not support the Catholic doctrine of "Purgatory", it simply confirms that we need Christ's sacrifice to purge our sins so that we can enter heaven.

Goatee said:
Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny (Matthew 5:25-26).

Still doesn't support Purgatory. In fact, when read in context, there is no reason to believe that Jesus is speaking of anything other than an earthly dispute that if not reconciled may result with an offender being thrown into prison. (An earthly prison)

Goatee said:
For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble—each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. I Corinthians 3:11-15

This verse is, unfortunately, a favourite of those who support the idea of Purgatory. That is not what is being referred to here, however. These Scriptures are dealing with heavenly rewards, given in accordance with works. These rewards (and the works that merit them) have nothing to do with salvation, and they do not speak of a place a believer goes after death to be "purified" with fire. Notice also that it is the "works" that are tested with fire, not the "worker."

The Bible is clear, it is Christ's one time, all sufficient sacrifice on the cross, received by faith, that purifies us, totally and completely.

Goatee · Jul 31, 2017

amariselle said:
Yeah, that does not support the Catholic doctrine of "Purgatory", it simply confirms that we need Christ's sacrifice to purge our sins so that we can enter heaven.

Still doesn't support Purgatory. In fact, when read in context, there is no reason to believe that Jesus is speaking of anything other than an earthly dispute that if not reconciled may result with an offender being thrown into prison. (An earthly prison)

This verse is, unfortunately, a favourite of those who support the idea of Purgatory. That is not what is being referred to here, however. These Scriptures are dealing with heavenly rewards, given in accordance with works. These rewards (and the works that merit them) have nothing to do with salvation, and they do not speak of a place a believer goes after death to be "purified" with fire. Notice also that it is the "works" that are tested with fire, not the "worker."

The Bible is clear, it is Christ's one time, all sufficient sacrifice on the cross, received by faith, that purifies us, totally and completely.

Predictable responses from you! Lol

Luther vs Catholic Church

Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.

Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.

Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.

Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.

Jesus Never Fails

Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.

Facilitator

Jesus Never Fails

Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.

Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.

Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.

Jesus Never Fails

Facilitator

Facilitator

Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.

Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.

Facilitator

Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.

Jesus Never Fails

Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.

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