Did Jesus Ever "Violate" Anyone's "Free Will"?

JoeP222w

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Another misrepresentation/straw man fallacy from the pro-Calvinist side. Jimmyjimmy tried the exact same thing. Denying YOUR VIEW of God's sovereignty doesn't mean I believe man is sovereign over God. If we have a choice on something, it's because God ALLOWS us to have that choice, leaving His sovereignty quite intact.

And man's choice is limited by his nature. So the unregenerate man will not choose God because he has no ability to.

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
 
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JoeP222w

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Show proof from Scripture.

Genesis 25:29-34 Once when Jacob was cooking stew, Esau came in from the field, and he was exhausted. (30) And Esau said to Jacob, "Let me eat some of that red stew, for I am exhausted!" (Therefore his name was called Edom.) (31) Jacob said, "Sell me your birthright now." (32) Esau said, "I am about to die; of what use is a birthright to me?" (33) Jacob said, "Swear to me now." So he swore to him and sold his birthright to Jacob. (34) Then Jacob gave Esau bread and lentil stew, and he ate and drank and rose and went his way. Thus Esau despised his birthright.

In those days, when you gave up your birthright, you gave up all claims to rank in the family as well as any claims to inheritance from your father. So by patriarchal standards, Esau denied his right to be ranked higher than Jacob, thus Jacob ruled over him.
 
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Norbert L

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Did Lazarus ask Jesus to raise him from the dead?
Interesting thought. At first glance people don't have the free will to raise themselves back to this life, so could it not be classified as an area where man's free will doesn't exist? Basically we know of people who freely choose death through suicide but we do not see people resurrecting themselves at will.
 
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A_Thinker

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And man's choice is limited by his nature. So the unregenerate man will not choose God because he has no ability to.

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
And man's choice is limited by his nature. So the unregenerate man will not choose God because he has no ability to.

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Jesus also said ...

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL men unto me. John 12:32

Now, without getting into a discussion about how comprehensive that word "ALL" is ... I think that most christians can agree that there are SOME people/men who experience the drawing of God ... per the lifting up of Jesus, ... who resist that drawing.

The enlightenment of ALL men's hearts is of God (John 1:9), ... yet ALL men do not respond positively to that enlightenment (John 3:19-20).

Jesus said that it is because men's deeds are evil ... that they prefer the dark to the light.

It is undeniable that those who come to God ... are enabled by God to do so. It is a harder argument that those that do not come to God, ... have NOT been enlightened by God to do so.
 
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A_Thinker

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Are your deeds evil? Were your deeds ever evil?

We should note that that passage goes on to say ...

But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. John 3:21

I came to CHrist as a child, ... and there is no doubt that I performed some evil deeds, ... but also, that I performed some true deeds (as I was enabled by God).

There is no question that I have missed the mark at points, ... but also that my life has not been overwhelmed by evil (by the grace of God).

I believe that the question is ... "Is this same grace of God ... not made available to all other men ?"

For instance ... when I am confronted with the choice to work for my living ... or to steal what belongs to my neighbor, ... is it your view that SOME who perform such evils ARE NOT AWARE that God disapproves of those acts ?
 
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jimmyjimmy

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We should note that that passage goes on to say ...

But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. John 3:21

I came to CHrist as a child, ... and there is no doubt that I performed some evil deeds, ... but also, that I performed some true deeds (as I was enabled by God).

There is no question that I have missed the mark at points, ... but also that my life has not been overwhelmed by evil (by the grace of God).

I believe that the question is ... "Is this same grace of God ... not made available to all other men ?"

For instance ... when I am confronted with the choice to work for my living ... or to steal what belongs to my neighbor, ... is it your view that SOME who perform such evils ARE NOT AWARE that God disapproves of those acts ?

So, prior to becoming a Christian, your deeds were righteous, and you wanted then brought into the light. Is that correct?
 
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A_Thinker

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So, prior to becoming a Christian, your deeds were righteous, and you wanted then brought into the light. Is that correct?

I didn't say that.

However, JESUS said that ... "those whose DEEDS are TRUE, ... come to the LIGHT."
 
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JoeP222w

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And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL men unto me. John 12:32

Referring to kinds of men, not every single human being that has ever existed, but to Jews and Gentiles, all kinds of men.

Now, without getting into a discussion about how comprehensive that word "ALL" is ... I think that most christians can agree that there are SOME people/men who experience the drawing of God ... per the lifting up of Jesus, ... who resist that drawing.

You have not established that every single human being who has ever existed resists the drawing of God, you have only asserted it.

The enlightenment of ALL men's hearts is of God (John 1:9)

Meaning that no one has the excuse that they did not know that God exists.

Romans 1:18-20 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. (19) For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. (20) For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

yet ALL men do not respond positively to that enlightenment (John 3:19-20).

You cannot separate what has come before:

John 3:16-21 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. (17) For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. (18) Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. (19) And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. (20) For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. (21) But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God."

Those who do not believe in Him (i.e. converse of all the believing ones) remain condemned, but this is not because they did not have sufficient knowledge of Him (Romans 1:18-20 again) but because they would not believe and their hearts remained dark.

It is undeniable that those who come to God ... are enabled by God to do so.

You have asserted this but you have not demonstrated this from the exegesis of the text. And this thought promotes that if God "enables" someone to be saved, but they still end up in Hell, that God fails in what He wills, because man's will is sovereign to God. There will be no one in Hell who is saying, "God enabled me to be saved, but I frustrated His plans, because I am greater than He!" It is also a complete denial of the sufficiency and efficacy of the cross to saved dead sinners to new life. That Jesus' death on the cross was simply a probability and not a certainty. This is not supported in the proper exegesis of scripture, and is simply promoted to advance the libertarian free will of man.

It is a harder argument that those that do not come to God, ... have NOT been enlightened by God to do so

Romans 1:18-20 again. No one will be in Hell that can say, "I wanted to be saved, but God did not enlighten me enough to know how to be saved."
 
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A_Thinker

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You have not established that every single human being who has ever existed resists the drawing of God, you have only asserted it.

No ... my claim is that SOME who have existed have resisted the drawing of God ...

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Matthew 23:37
 
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A_Thinker

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A_Thinker said:

It is undeniable that those who come to God ... are enabled by God to do so.

You have asserted this but you have not demonstrated this from the exegesis of the text. And this thought promotes that if God "enables" someone to be saved, but they still end up in Hell, that God fails in what He wills, because man's will is sovereign to God.

Who is it that asserts that ANY who come to God ... do so without His enabling ? ALL good things come from God.

Pauls's letter to Timothy declares that it is God's will ... that "ALL men be saved". And my prior response ... citing Jesus' declaration that God desired that Jerusalem would find shelter under His wings ... and, yet, WOULD NOT, adequately demonstrates that God's will can be resisted.

It is not a ding to God's SOVEREIGNTY that He SOVEREIGNLY allows men to determine their spiritual destiny. To grant freedom is, indeed, ... an ACT of SOVREIGNTY ...
 
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A_Thinker

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It is also a complete denial of the sufficiency and efficacy of the cross to saved dead sinners to new life.

You are thinking too much ... and, in doing so, going BEYOND what the scriptures declare.

Nowhere in scipture is it declared that Jesus's death was effacacious for ANY beyond "those who believe".
 
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JoeP222w

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Who is it that asserts that ANY who come to God ... do so without His enabling ? ALL good things come from God.

I did not say you said that.

Pauls's letter to Timothy declares that it is God's will ... that "ALL men be saved".

Context matters and specific references matter.

1 Timothy 2:1-4 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, (2) for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. (3) This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, (4) who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Paul was referring to all kinds of men, not just Jews.

citing Jesus' declaration that God desired that Jerusalem would find shelter under His wings

Not sure what you are referring, since you do not use references, but I suspect you are referring to Matthew 23:37, an oft misquoted and misapplied passage by non-Reformed. This is a judgment passage condemning the leaders of Jerusalem, it is not referring to resisting salvation.

Matthew 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!

It is not a ding to God's SOVEREIGNTY that He SOVEREIGNLY allows men to determine their spiritual destiny. To grant freedom is, indeed, ... an ACT of SOVREIGNTY ...

Man is not sovereign, God alone is. Man, in and of himself, does not determine his own destiny to salvation. There are no God seekers.

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Romans 3:10-12 as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; (11) no one understands; no one seeks for God. (12) All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."

You are thinking too much ... and, in doing so, going BEYOND what the scriptures declare.

Assertion without evidence is merely an opinion.

Nowhere in scipture is it declared that Jesus's death was effacacious for ANY beyond "those who believe".

That is not what I said. I never said that those who do not believe are saved. Nor did I say that those who believe are not saved. That is a misrepresentation.
 
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A_Thinker

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Romans 3:10-12 as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; (11) no one understands; no one seeks for God. (12) All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."

I believe that what Paul is descibing here is as pertains to the "natural/fallen man".

But which of us is wholly natural (i.e. not at all enlightened of God) ?

For there are God seekers ... Acts gives an account of one such ...

Philip and the Ethiopian

26 Now an angel of the Lord said to Philip, “Get up and go south to the desert road that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.” 27 So he started out, and on his way he met an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official in charge of the entire treasury of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians. He had gone to Jerusalem to worship, 28 and on his return was sitting in his chariot, reading Isaiah the prophet.

29 The Spirit said to Philip, “Go over to that chariot and stay by it.”

30 So Philip ran up and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. “Do you understand what you are reading?” Philip asked.

31 “How can I,” he said, “unless someone guides me?” And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.

32 The eunuch was reading this passage of Scripture:

“He was led like a sheep to the slaughter,

and as a lamb before the shearer is silent,

so He did not open His mouth.

33 In His humiliation He was deprived of justice.

Who can recount His descendants?

For His life was removed from the earth.”

34 “Tell me,” said the eunuch, “who is the prophet talking about, himself or someone else?”

35 Then Philip began with this very Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus.

36 As they traveled along the road and came to some water, the eunuch said, “Look, here is water! What is to prevent me from being baptized?” 38 And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and Philip baptized him.

Cornelius is another God seeker that scripture speaks of.

And scripture speaks of some considered righteous by God ... Job, Zacharias, Elizabeth, Noah, Enoch ...

Genesis 6:9 Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his generation. Noah iwalked with God.

Job 1:1 In the land of Uz there lived a man named Job. This man was blameless and upright. He feared God and shunned evil.

Luke 1:5 In the time of Herod king of Judea, there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly division of Abijah; his wife Elizabeth was also a descendant of Aaron. 6 Both of them were righteous in the sight of God, observing all the Lord’s commands and decrees blamelessly.
 
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JoeP222w

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I believe that what Paul is descibing here is as pertains to the "natural/fallen man".

But which of us is wholly natural (i.e. not at all enlightened of God) ?

All mankind is born in Adam (i.e. with an Adamic nature).

For the rest of your comment, none of those mentioned were righteous before God because of something that they, as individual, in and of themselves, conjured up something within themselves to be God seekers. It was the work that God did within those individuals to grant them a regenerate heart, such that they would seek the things of God, solely because of God, and based in God.
 
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A_Thinker

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All mankind is born in Adam (i.e. with an Adamic nature).

For the rest of your comment, none of those mentioned were righteous before God because of something that they, as individual, in and of themselves, conjured up something within themselves to be God seekers. It was the work that God did within those individuals to grant them a regenerate heart, such that they would seek the things of God, solely because of God, and based in God.

I believe that all of my responses have been consistent in the theme ... all of our goodness comes from God.

I believe that includes pre-redemption and post-redemption, as illustrated by my scriptural examples (ie. Cornelius) ...

Acts 10

1 In Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion of the Italian Cohort, as it was called. 2 He was a devout man who feared God with all his household; he gave alms generously to the people and prayed constantly to God.
 
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Genesis 25:29-34 Once when Jacob was cooking stew, Esau came in from the field, and he was exhausted. (30) And Esau said to Jacob, "Let me eat some of that red stew, for I am exhausted!" (Therefore his name was called Edom.) (31) Jacob said, "Sell me your birthright now." (32) Esau said, "I am about to die; of what use is a birthright to me?" (33) Jacob said, "Swear to me now." So he swore to him and sold his birthright to Jacob. (34) Then Jacob gave Esau bread and lentil stew, and he ate and drank and rose and went his way. Thus Esau despised his birthright.

In those days, when you gave up your birthright, you gave up all claims to rank in the family as well as any claims to inheritance from your father. So by patriarchal standards, Esau denied his right to be ranked higher than Jacob, thus Jacob ruled over him.

You call this ruling?

Genesis 27:41-43
41So Esau bore a grudge against Jacob because of the blessing with which his father had blessed him; and Esau said to himself, “The days of mourning for my father are near; then I will kill my brother Jacob.” 42Now when the words of her elder son Esau were reported to Rebekah, she sent and called her younger son Jacob, and said to him, “Behold your brother Esau is consoling himself concerning you by planning to kill you. 43“Now therefore, my son, obey my voice, and arise, flee to Haran, to my brother Laban!

Maybe in your dreams. In the real world this is what is ruling :

  • Genesis 25:23 God judges Esau and Jacob before they were born. He declares that they will have descendants that will be rivals and that the older brother would be a servant to the younger brother.
  • Numbers 20:21 explains how the Edomites refused to allow the Israelites to go through their territory.
  • 2 Samuel 8:6 God was with David as he conquered his enemies including the Edomites.
  • 2 Samuel 2:14 David set up garrisons at strategic points in the land of Edom. The Edomites now have to serve the Israelites.

David Subdues Edomites - Amazing Bible Timeline with World History
 
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