What is the Church?

Light of the East · Jul 29, 2017

From the book: Church, Papacy, and Schism

We tend to forget that in the first place the Church is a spiritual reality, rooted in divine life. As such, it has its existence 'in heaven', before it is manifest in any form on earth.

Okay, this is important! I very much need to understand this. Is the author saying that the Church existed before Creation? How could that be? Can someone draw this out for me? Is the physical Church here on earth - the qahal (Hebrew) or ecclesia (Greek) - which is the "congregation or gathering of God's people" somehow a type of the Church in heaven?

Your input on this will be appreciated.

Light of the East · Jul 29, 2017

Good grief!~

I am in way over my head here!!!

QUOTE: At the same time, the Church is intimately connected with the incarnation. One of the few scriptural definitions of the Church is that it is the body of Christ, and the body of Christ is manifest in the incarnation. Here, therefore, the Church is linked directly to that theandric mystery which lies at the base of our own humanity, and on the realization of which our salvation depends. In Christ, human nature is united to God in the Person of the divine Logos, to form a divine-human being, ontologically and substantially one. (Okay, this I get) This union of God with man in Christ is the foundation of the union of God with humanity in the Church: the second presupposes the first and depends upon it. In the Church the Godhead is vitally linked with humanity, through the union in the Person of Christ of the divine and human natures. By the power of the incarnation and of Pentecost, the whole of mankind (this destroys Calvinism) is given the grace to enter the Kingdom of God, to be co-heirs with Christ, to live in Christ. (Not trying to start a side issue here, but this sounds terribly like Universalism) This is not something which has only an eschatological significance—something which is to be accomplished at the end of time when Christ will lead mankind (what is meant here - all mankind or only those who have cooperated with God's offer of grace and forgiveness?) into his heavenly Kingdom. The Kingdom is effectively established already—here and now. It is already present in the Church. The Church is 'the holy city that has been sanctified. . .in becoming conformed to Christ and in participating in the divine nature through the communication of the Holy Spirit'. The holy city has come down from heaven and opened its gates to us. (Book of Revelations, last chapter?) Heavenly realities are come to earth and given to us. In Christ and through Christ, we are sons and heirs. We are fellow-citizens with the saints. We have fellowship with God, and are the temples of God in which he dwells. In so far as we realize the integrity of our nature—which is that of human nature linked mysteriously to the divine—we participate in that spiritualized reality which is the body of Christ. The Church is the body of Christ, and through communion in this spiritualized reality which is the body of Christ, we share in the uncreated life of God himself. Hence the Church (the physical Church on earth?) is also the locus of our salvation, of our transfiguration. It is the locus of the transfiguration of all creatures (If Christ is the Church, then we can only participate in His life by being part of the Church on earth? Is this right?)

mark kennedy · Jul 29, 2017

When it comes to the 'church', God only knows, literally. The Christian community has always came together like a family, sometimes a bit dysfunctional, but our tendency to come together has always been a hallmark of Christianity. It literally means 'called out ones', those called out to be separated and holy.

Phronema · Jul 29, 2017

Before anything gets out of hand.

Please keep in mind this is "The Ancient Way" subforum, or TAW. I believe when Light of the East posted here, he was in search of an Orthodox answer specifically as he posted it in the Eastern Orthodox subforum.

I mean no offense whatsoever when saying that,please forgive me if you've felt offense, but it is part of the rules. I also realize you likely posted this here not realizing you're in a subforum. Anyhow, just a heads up

As a seeker, student, potential convert, and hopeful catechumen I look forward to the Orthodox responses.

~Anastasia~ · Jul 29, 2017

Thank you for the reminder that this is indeed TAW, and as such, the OP should get replies from an Orthodox point of view. Anyone desiring to debate anything said here is invited to start a thread in St. Justin Martyr's subforum, where debate is allowed.

Thank you all for respecting the rules and allowing us to maintain peace in our congregational forum.

Whose quote is that, btw, Light?

Anyway, I'm going to leave most of these questions to someone better able to reply. This is partly over my head.

I will just say that - grace is extended to all mankind. Anyone CAN be saved. And indeed, we know that it is God's will that all be saved. However, there is doubt that everyone will accept and cooperate with God's grace, and He will force no one to be saved who does not desire it. We don't teach universalism.

We may HOPE and PRAY for salvation for any, for all, for every person we meet or know of. But we are certainly not assured of it.

And I suspect this has nothing to do with "invisible church" often taught. Yes, we touch the realities of the Kingdom, especially in the Divine Liturgy.

The rest will need someone better taught than myself to reply.

Durantis · Jul 29, 2017

~Anastasia~ said:
Hello Durantis, and welcome to CF and to The Ancient Way. We are glad you've joined us on the forum, and I pray you are blessed by being here.

I just wanted to point out, since you probably entered through "new threads" that is is actually posted in the Eastern Orthodox subforum. Each faith group has their own area in which to fellowship and discuss their particular beliefs, and while we are one who welcomes visitors in fellowship, no congregational forum can allow posts which are not representative of their own beliefs. And we have a more nuanced view of the Church, so we won't be able to discuss your reply here. If you ever have questions or need help, please feel free to ask.

Again, welcome to CF and to TAW!

Oh, I'm sorry! I get it. From now on I'll pay attention to that. Thanks for the welcome and God Bless you all. :clap:

~Anastasia~ · Jul 30, 2017

Durantis said:
From an internet article:

The Church is the "body of believers." It is comprised of those who have been saved and redeemed by the True and Living God, based upon the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus upon the cross. Inclusion in the Body of Christ is not by membership in a denomination, nor by baptism, nor or by dedication. It is not received by ritual, or by ceremony, or by natural birth. It is received by faith (Rom. 5:1; Eph. 2:8). The invisible church is the church made up of true believers. The visible church consists of those who say they are Christian but may or may not be truly saved. Being a member of a church on earth, guarantees nothing. Being a member of the Body of Christ, guarantees salvation.

The Christian Church does not include the Mormons, the Jehovah's Witnesses, the New Agers, the Muslims, the Buddhists, the Atheists, etc., These groups deny the true God and/or serve false gods. The true Christian Church is comprised only of those who have been redeemed by Christ who died on the cross and rose again. They are justified by faith in Christ (Rom. 5:1). They are not saved by false teachers, false gods, false gospels, by their works, or by their works combined with the grace of God. They are saved by grace through faith (Eph. 2:8) and that through Jesus alone: "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved," (Acts 4:12, NASB).

What is the Christian church? | carm

Hello Durantis, and welcome to CF and to The Ancient Way. We are glad you've joined us on the forum, and I pray you are blessed by being here.

I just wanted to point out, since you probably entered through "new threads" that is is actually posted in the Eastern Orthodox subforum. Each faith group has their own area in which to fellowship and discuss their particular beliefs, and while we are one who welcomes visitors in fellowship, no congregational forum can allow posts which are not representative of their own beliefs. And we have a more nuanced view of the Church, so we won't be able to discuss your reply here. If you ever have questions or need help, please feel free to ask.

Again, welcome to CF and to TAW!

~Anastasia~ · Jul 30, 2017

Durantis said:
Oh, I'm sorry! I get it. From now on I'll pay attention to that. Thanks for the welcome and God Bless you all.

No problem.

It's easy to miss and we all had to learn. Feel free to ask if any questions.

God be with you!

ArmyMatt · Jul 30, 2017

Light of the East said:
From the book: Church, Papacy, and Schism

We tend to forget that in the first place the Church is a spiritual reality, rooted in divine life. As such, it has its existence 'in heaven', before it is manifest in any form on earth.

Okay, this is important! I very much need to understand this. Is the author saying that the Church existed before Creation? How could that be? Can someone draw this out for me? Is the physical Church here on earth - the qahal (Hebrew) or ecclesia (Greek) - which is the "congregation or gathering of God's people" somehow a type of the Church in heaven?

Your input on this will be appreciated.

yes. the whole point of our existence is to participate in God's divine life, and to become by grace EVERYTHING He is by nature. that divine life is eternal.

plus, the angelic powers were created before the physical world, and they have been worshipping God since their creation.

graphite412 · Jul 31, 2017

Light of the East said:
Hence the Church (the physical Church on earth?) is also the locus of our salvation, of our transfiguration. It is the locus of the transfiguration of all creatures

Maybe I'm wrong but I don't see the trend to separate the Church in two groups in Orthodox writings. One group which is in heave and the other on earth. In this earthly life we are transfigured in the church and in the next heavenly life we will still be transfigured from glory to glory in the Church. This is only made possible by Christ.

Light of the East said:
We tend to forget that in the first place the Church is a spiritual reality, rooted in divine life. As such, it has its existence 'in heaven', before it is manifest in any form on earth.

Okay, this is important! I very much need to understand this. Is the author saying that the Church existed before Creation? How could that be? Can someone draw this out for me?

I do think that Orthodox writers include the angels as part of the church, but I really don't know for sure. It seems to include angels in the verse in Hebrews that I quote further down below in this post. The angels are assumed to be created before man.

The author could be making a reference to something similar to the high priestly prayer of Jesus in John 17:21-24
21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us: that the world may believe that thou didst send me.
22 And the glory which thou hast given me I have given unto them; that they may be one, even as we [are] one; 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be perfected into one; that the world may know that thou didst send me, and lovedst them, even as thou lovedst me.
24 Father, I desire that they also whom thou hast given me be with me where I am, that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

So this glory and unity that Christ prays for us to have is eternal, before creation. In this way the Church has it roots in the eternal, divine energies of God. So the Church is not to be seen as some sort of assembly of humans groping for a distant God, waiting for Heaven, since Christ is near and we already partake of the powers of the age to come. The Church is the Kingdom of Heaven that was drawing near, which St. John the Forerunner and Jesus preached.

We are not to see the Church in the same fashion as the Hebrews of Old, as it says in Hebrews 12
18 For ye are not come unto [a mount] that might be touched, and that burned with fire, and unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, 19 and the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which [voice] they that heard entreated that no word more should be spoken unto them; 20 for they could not endure that which was enjoined, If even a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned; 21 and so fearful was the appearance, [that] Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:

Here we see what we have with the Church:
22 but ye are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable hosts of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 and to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaketh better than [that of] Abel.

When we partake of the glory and unity in the Church, through the incarnation, we are being transfigured from glory to glory by partaking of the divine nature.

This is going past my knowledge, but perhaps others on the forum could do a better job at commenting. I think Fr. Thomas Hopko has a video where he talks about this; I'll look for it.

graphite412 · Jul 31, 2017

This video hits on some of your questions about the church from minutes 40:00-55:00, 131:00-135:00:

Dewi Sant · Jul 31, 2017

in a word: Communion.

ArmyMatt · Jul 31, 2017

Dewi Sant said:
in a word: Communion.

where we literally become one flesh with Christ. good point.

Light of the East · Jul 31, 2017

~Anastasia~ said:
Thank you for the reminder that this is indeed TAW, and as such, the OP should get replies from an Orthodox point of view. Anyone desiring to debate anything said here is invited to start a thread in St. Justin Martyr's subforum, where debate is allowed. Thank you all for respecting the rules and allowing us to maintain peace in our congregational forum.

Whose quote is that, btw, Light?

Anyway, I'm going to leave most of these questions to someone better able to reply. This is partly over my head.

I will just say that - grace is extended to all mankind. Anyone CAN be saved. And indeed, we know that it is God's will that all be saved. However, there is doubt that everyone will accept and cooperate with God's grace, and He will force no one to be saved who does not desire it. We don't teach universalism.

We may HOPE and PRAY for salvation for any, for all, for every person we meet or know of. But we are certainly not assured of it.

And I suspect this has nothing to do with "invisible church" often taught. Yes, we touch the realities of the Kingdom, especially in the Divine Liturgy.

The rest will need someone better taught than myself to reply.

The book is CHURCH, PAPACY, AND SCHISM - A Theological Inquiry by PHILIP SHERRARD

Light of the East · Jul 31, 2017

ArmyMatt said:
yes. the whole point of our existence is to participate in God's divine life, and to become by grace EVERYTHING He is by nature. that divine life is eternal.

plus, the angelic powers were created before the physical world, and they have been worshipping God since their creation.

Thank you, Father. Still trying to wrap my mind around this concept because I have what might be distinctly called a Western mindset regarding the Church, i.e., that it is a physical, visible, and hierarchical institution on earth.

ArmyMatt · Jul 31, 2017

Light of the East said:
Thank you, Father. Still trying to wrap my mind around this concept because I have what might be distinctly called a Western mindset regarding the Church, i.e., that it is a physical, visible, and hierarchical institution on earth.

yeah, it's not something any of us can wrap our minds around, only something that can be experienced.

Dewi Sant · Jul 31, 2017

ArmyMatt said:
where we literally become one flesh with Christ. good point.

Yes.

Communion in Community.
God exists in Community [Trinity].
Love and relationship exists in community.

A great deal of my thoughts on ecclesiology come from John Zizioulas and Dmitru Staniloae.

~Anastasia~ · Jul 31, 2017

Light of the East said:
Thank you, Father. Still trying to wrap my mind around this concept because I have what might be distinctly called a Western mindset regarding the Church, i.e., that it is a physical, visible, and hierarchical institution on earth.

Asking of the others here - it's not wrong, is it, to understand that the Church includes the physical, visible, hierarchical Church we all know? (I'm stopping short of affirming "institution on earth" because even though we are on earth, we are not what I'd call an institution of the earthly intentions).

But isn't it correct to see that the Church includes all of that, but just that we do not EXclude the Saints who have gone before us and are in the Presence of Christ Himself?

Do I understand that the real problem Orthodoxy has with the western understanding is with their tendency to make a sharp division between the "church militant" and the "church triumphant"?

Please do correct me if I'm wrong. I haven't studied much on this and ran into some mildly confusing information along the way. Thank you all.

~Anastasia~ · Jul 31, 2017

Light of the East said:
The book is CHURCH, PAPACY, AND SCHISM - A Theological Inquiry by PHILIP SHERRARD

Thanks btw. I was curious if it was from someone I knew something about their stance, for the sake of context. But I don't know anything about him.

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