Conditional Immortality Supports Annihilationion, Refutes Eternal Conscious Torment and Universalism

redleghunter · Jul 29, 2017

Der Alter said:
Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment, He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell must have been correct.

An important note above. Thanks for the cultural and historic supporting evidence.

woobadooba · Jul 29, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
Are you suggesting if a person rejects Christ their good works( or lack of good works) should come into play as to what judgement they receive?

I am talking about justice, not salvation by works.

1stcenturylady · Jul 29, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
Are you suggesting if a person rejects Christ their good works( or lack of good works) should come into play as to what judgement they receive?

I don't know what will happen one way or the other, but in Romans 2 about the Gentiles that don't have the law, but obey their conscience, it says God will judge them according to their works. Also don't know if that was OT Gentiles or after Jesus came to earth and the church started.

redleghunter · Jul 29, 2017

Chris Date said:
In the intermediate state, awaiting resurrection. Where the Bible describes final punishment, on the other hand, fire completely destroys and consumes.

Did you provide sources showing the body and soul are completely consumed?

stuart lawrence · Jul 29, 2017

woobadooba said:
I am talking about justice, not salvation by works.

Justice, from Gods point of view is believe in his Son or perish.
It doesn't matter how good a life you live, if you reject his son, you perish

Der Alte · Jul 29, 2017

Chris Date said:
Where do you think these sources got their information? From scholars of history.

I don't know I have not and do not intend to read their books. I go to the primary sources, not what some "scholar" said.

Your post was very long and it was difficult for me to distinguish your own words from the words of the people you were quoting. I'm happy to respond to a point at a time.

I indented everything I quoted and provided the name and a link to the source. Those books that you referred to do you read them one point at a time or do you read everything in context?

Let's discuss one text at a time. Which would you like to discuss?

See previous comment.

1stcenturylady · Jul 29, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
I didn't think evangelicals dwelt on creed's, nor those considered Church fathers

I don't go much in for labels. One evangelical doesn't believe the same as another evangelical, so what's the point. Same goes for fundamentalist.

Chris Date · Jul 29, 2017

redleghunter said:
Did you provide sources showing the body and soul are completely consumed?

One is Matthew 10:28, in which Jesus exhorts his followers not to fear men, who can kill the body but not the soul, but rather to fear God, who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna.

The word translated "destroy" is the Greek ἀπόλλυμι, and is here used in what linguists call the "active voice." In the synoptic gospels, when this word is used in the active voice, transitively to describe what one person does to another, it means slay or kill. (See, for example, Glenn Peopes, "The meaning of 'apollumi' in the Synoptic Gospels, Rethinking Hell [blog], posted October 27, 2012, The meaning of “apollumi” in the Synoptic Gospels.)

So contrary to the doctrine of eternal torment, in which the resurrected lost will be alive forever, body and soul, Jesus taught instead that they would die forever, body and soul.

redleghunter · Jul 29, 2017

Chris Date said:
As historical scholars have been demonstrating for years, in fact Jewish views before, during, and after the time of Christ were mixed. Yes, some of them believed in eternal torment, but others believed in annihilation. And as Dr. Instone-Brewer demonstrates in his chapter in A Consuming Passion: Essays on Hell and Immortality in Honor of Edward Fudge, Jesus used the language of those Jews who believed in annihilation, not eternal torment. Additionally, Dr. Papaioannou demonstrates in The Geography of Hell that Jesus' use of "Gehenna" would have brought to his listeners' minds the Old Testament Valley of the Son of Hinnom, which the OT promised in places like Jeremiah 7 would become the "valley of slaughter" where scavenging beasts and birds will not be frightened away from consuming the corpses of God's slain enemies.

What's important is the views of the Jews you site also did not believe in the soul and resurrection of the dead.

As @Der Alter pointed out this was the view of the Saducees.

1stcenturylady · Jul 29, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
Justice, from Gods point of view is believe in his Son or perish.
It doesn't matter how good a life you live if you reject his son, you perish

Yes, but the OP question is "perish" for how long? Immediate destruction, or torment forever.

woobadooba · Jul 29, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
Justice, from Gods point of view is believe in his Son or perish.
It doesn't matter how good a life you live if you reject his son, you perish

Being tortured for all eternity without the hope of any relief is not the same as perishing as a result of being destroyed.

Chris Date · Jul 29, 2017

Der Alter said:
I don't know I have not and do not intend to read their books. I go to the primary sources, not what some "scholar" said.

You do realize that the sources you cited are not, in fact, primary sources concerning what first-century Jews believed, right? Primary sources would be the writings of those first-century Jews. The sources you cited are secondary sources, just like the historical scholars upon whom they rely for their information.

Der Alter said:
I indented everything I quoted and provided the name and a link to the source. Those books that you referred to do you read them one point at a time or do you read everything in context?

OK, well I'm sorry that I'm unable to discuss a whole bunch of texts at a time. I'll continue to discuss one at a time with those who are willing. God bless.

redleghunter · Jul 29, 2017

Chris Date said:
That's incorrect. As I demonstrate in my chapter of A Consuming Passion: Essays on Hell and Immortality in Honor of Edward Fudge, Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh-day Adventists got conditional immortality and annihilationism from orthodox Christians. It was a very popular view among conservative Christians in nineteenth-century America and Europe.

Which conservative Christians in the 19th Century?

Chris Date · Jul 29, 2017

redleghunter said:
What's important is the views of the Jews you site also did not believe in the soul and resurrection of the dead.

As @Der Alter pointed out this was the view of the Saducees.

In fact, the Jews to whom I'm referring were not Saduccees.

ToBeLoved · Jul 29, 2017

Chris Date said:
One is Matthew 10:28, in which Jesus exhorts his followers not to fear men, who can kill the body but not the soul, but rather to fear God, who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna.

The word translated "destroy" is the Greek ἀπόλλυμι, and is here used in what linguists call the "active voice." In the synoptic gospels, when this word is used in the active voice, transitively to describe what one person does to another, it means slay or kill. (See, for example, Glenn Peopes, "The meaning of 'apollumi' in the Synoptic Gospels, Rethinking Hell [blog], posted October 27, 2012, The meaning of “apollumi” in the Synoptic Gospels.)

So contrary to the doctrine of eternal torment, in which the resurrected lost will be alive forever, body and soul, Jesus taught instead that they would die forever, body and soul.

Do you have source for that word Gehenna? Bible verses or Greek

stuart lawrence · Jul 29, 2017

woobadooba said:
Being tortured for all eternity without the hope of any relief is not the same as perishing as a result of being destroyed.

Well if hell is a place where Gods presence does not exist, that is what you choose, not what God chose for you.
And if you get to such a place, then have great anguish and gnashing of teeth because of it, how would that make God cruel?

Chris Date · Jul 29, 2017

redleghunter said:
Which conservative Christians in the 19th Century?

Harold Guillebaud and Basil Atkinson were both born in that century, and were conditionalists.

Jacob Blain was a Baptist minister who was a conditionalist in that century. William Huntington was acknowledged even by critics of conditionalism to be a presbyter in good standing, despite being a published conditionalist in that century.

Those are a few.

Darren J. Clark · Jul 29, 2017

redleghunter said:
Annihilationism and conditional immortality is just recently within the past 10 years a doctrine explored by evangelicals. Prior to this time it has mainly been a doctrine of 7th Day Adventists and Jehovah's Witnesses. As is the case of "soul sleep" is mainly a 7th Day Adventist and JW doctrine.

The claim that it has only been explored by Evangelicals in the last ten years is completely incorrect. Philip E. Hughes, Basil Atkinson, John Stott. Clark Pinnock, John Wenham, Edward Fudge, Richard Bauckham, Anthony Thistleton, E. Earle Ellis, R. T. France, and I. Howard Marshall are all Evangelical scholars (except Fudge) and all held to Conditional immortality/annihilation in the 20th century. This cannot be described simply as a phenomenon of the last ten years.

Chris Date · Jul 29, 2017

ToBeLoved said:
Do you have source for that word Gehenna? Bible verses or Greek

The Greek word translated "Gehenna" in Matthew 10:28 and many other verses is γέεννα, a shortened Greek transliteration of the Old Testament Hebrew "Valley of the Son of Hinnom," about which you can read in Jeremiah 7:30ff. There you'll discover the OT promised it would one day be called the "valley of slaughter" because scavenging beasts and birds would not be frightened away from the corpses of God's slain enemies, upon which they feed.

woobadooba · Jul 29, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
Well if hell is a place where Gods presence does not exist, that is what you choose, not what God chose for you.
And if you get to such a place, then have great anguish and gnashing of teeth because of it, how would that make God cruel?

This is not a question of who is deserving of hell, but one of justice. How is it justice to sentence a person to eternal suffering in flames for spending a lifetime not believing in God?

Conditional Immortality Supports Annihilationion, Refutes Eternal Conscious Torment and Universalism

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