What does Scripture Mean About Perfection?

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You can be carnal and still be saved

No. A Christian cannot be carnal and still be saved.
In 1 Corinthians 3, Paul was condemning certain individuals in the Corinthian church because of their behavior. Paul insults them by saying he could not speak unto them spiritual things like unto a spiritual man but he could only speak to them as if they were still carnal and unregenerate. Paul says just previously at the end of 1 Corinthians 2, "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." So Paul is comparing them to being like the unregenerate or the unsaved. But what about Paul saying he has to talk to them as if they are like still babes in Christ? Well, Paul does not say that they are babes in Christ who are saved. He said he has to speak to them as if they are like babes in Christ (Who are in no doubt in need of rebuking or chastening so as to get them to repent of their sins). Peter says that there are "cursed children." He describes what these cursed children are like.

2 Pet 2:14 "Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
2 Pet 2:15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;" (2 Peter 2:14-15).

Peter says these "cursed children" have forsake the right way and have gone astray and prefer the love of the wages of unrighteousness. This is the carnal Christian. They forsake God's good ways and prefer to love the wages of unrighteousness instead. Also, in Matthew 13:41-42, it describes how a person can be a part of Christ's kingdom and yet if they are working iniquity or sin, then Christ's angels will gather them out of His Kingdom at the coming future Judgment in the end and cast them into the furnace of fire (i.e. the Lake of Fire). This means that while somebody may appear to be in Christ or His kingdom, the true test of their faith is if they have good fruit that shows that Jesus is really living within them or not. For Paul says, in 2 Corinthians 13:5, prove that Christ is in you, unless you be reprobate. How can we have an assurance in knowing Jesus? 1 John 2:3-6 is the solution. 1 John 2:3 says we can have an assurance in knowing the Lord if we find that we are keeping His commandments (i.e. good fruit). For Titus 1:16 says that you can deny God by a lack of works. Hebrews 12:14 says without holiness, no man shall see the Lord. Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

You said:
but don't think for one second there are no consequences because we are under grace.

What consequences could this really be that would truly matter?
To live is Christ and to die is gain.
Rewards? If one is with Jesus and in His Kingdom, what does one really need for any rewards?
One has got their guaranteed ticket to Heaven; That is all that matters.
Everything else is just minor and temporal and will not be all that big of a deal when looking ahead eternally.
Is not the real treasure or pearl of great price... Jesus?
Suffering in this life? Does not Scripture say that all who live Godly in Christ shall suffer persecution?
Paul had a thorn in his side. Is that not a bad consequence?
Why are Christians persecuted and then killed?

You said:
When the rich Corinthians were mistreating the poor believers at their love feasts Paul had this to say about it:

For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves. That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. (1 Cor. 11:29,30)

They were not discerning the body of Christ, that Paul makes clear from chapter 12-14, the body of Christ is the church. Mistreating other believers is something God takes personally; some of you are ill and some of you sleep, which means the have died. God can and will destroy the body to save the soul.

No. This is talking about spiritual death. If you were to keep reading, it says in verses 31-32,

1 Cor 11:31 "For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
1 Cor 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world." (1 Corinthians 11:31-32).

In other words, verses 31-32 is giving us the solution so as not to sleep, be sick, or weak spiritually. For it says if we judge ourselves. Why do we need to judge ourselves? So as to prevent ourselves in treating fellow believers with a lack of love by eating up all the food in fellowship gathers and or getting drunk around them. Scripture says drunkards will not inherit the Kingdom of God. Also, if one does not love their brother, they do not have eternal life abiding in them (See 1 John 3:15).

As for the word "sick" in 1 Corinthians 11:29-30: Jesus says,

"When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." (Mark 2:17).

A doctor is to heal a person of their disease. Their disease was that they were sick by living in sin. That is why Jesus does not call the righteous, but sinners to repentance so that these sinners can live righteously. They are sick because they are living in sin and thinking that is normal (When it is not). Repentance is a cry out unto God that is always followed by the fruits of repentance (i.e. forsaking sin). Jesus says that the Ninevites will rise up in Judgment because they repented at the preaching of Jonah (Matthew 12:41). If you were to turn to Jonah 3:6-10, you would see that the King of the Ninevites had told his people to:

(a) Cry out to God.
(b) Forsake your sinful ways.

When God had seen that the Ninevites had forsaken their wickeness or sin, that is when He pulled back His wrath or judgment that He was going to bring upon them.

Oh, and by the way. How is God exactly Calvinistic in this scenario? If God predestined the Ninevites to be saved, then no Wrath or Judgment should have ever placed them in any kind of danger.

As for being spiritually asleep:
Romans 11 says this of Israel,

"(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear; ) unto this day." (Romans 11:8).

Acts 28:26 "Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
Act 28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them." (Acts of the Apostles 28:26-27).

The converted are those who are truly able to hear and understand and bring forth good fruit.

May the Lord's good ways always be upon you.

Sincerely,

~ Jason.


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Well, since you asked:
The fruit that you have shown me is: manic, irrational, irresponsible, and paranoid. If you were a visitor in my church, I would keep an eye on you to make sure you didn't rush up and grab the microphone away from the preacher.

You do not show love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control at the level I would expect for one who proclaimed a message of sinless perfection

Well, your words here are just baseless accusations. You are not seeking to discuss this topic and learning whether it is true or not. For what is the worse thing that can happen if one walks righteously in the Lord? Will not the people of God be living righteously in His Kingdom? Does not the Anti Sinless Perfection belief work against living righteously? Does it not work against that current place and people wherein dwells righteousness only?


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Does not your fight against living righteously go against that current place and people wherein dwells righteousness only?
Now that is a baseless accusation. Do you really think that asking to see your fruit qualifies as a fight against living righteously? I'm not interested in your argument until I see your fruit and I think you are increasing revealing your fruit to us in a negative way.
 
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Now that is a baseless accusation. Do you really think that asking to see your fruit qualifies as a fight against living righteously? I'm not interested in your argument until I see your fruit and I think you are increasing revealing your fruit to us in a negative way.

When one admits that they cannot stop sinning it is contrary to living righteously.

Think about it.


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ToBeLoved

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No. A Christian cannot be carnal and still be saved.
In 1 Corinthians 3, Paul was condemning certain individuals in the Corinthian church because of their behavior. Paul insults them by saying he could not speak unto them spiritual things like unto a spiritual man but he could only speak to them as if they were still carnal and unregenerate. Paul says just previously at the end of 1 Corinthians 2, "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." So Paul is comparing them to being like the unregenerate or the unsaved. But what about Paul saying he has to talk to them as if they are like still babes in Christ? Well, Paul does not say that they are babes in Christ who are saved. He said he has to speak to them as if they are like babes in Christ (Who are in no doubt in need of rebuking or chastening so as to get them to repent of their sins). Peter says that there are "cursed children." He describes what these cursed children are like.

2 Pet 2:14 "Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
2 Pet 2:15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;" (2 Peter 2:14-15).

Peter says these "cursed children" have forsake the right way and have gone astray and prefer the love of the wages of unrighteousness. This is the carnal Christian. They forsake God's good ways and prefer to love the wages of unrighteousness instead. Also, in Matthew 13:41-42, it describes how a person can be a part of Christ's kingdom and yet if they are working iniquity or sin, then Christ's angels will gather them out of His Kingdom at the coming future Judgment in the end and cast them into the furnace of fire (i.e. the Lake of Fire). This means that while somebody may appear to be in Christ or His kingdom, the true test of their faith is if they have good fruit that shows that Jesus is really living within them or not. For Paul says, in 2 Corinthians 13:5, prove that Christ is in you, unless you be reprobate. How can we have an assurance in knowing Jesus? 1 John 2:3-6 is the solution. 1 John 2:3 says we can have an assurance in knowing the Lord if we find that we are keeping His commandments (i.e. good fruit). For Titus 1:16 says that you can deny God by a lack of works. Hebrews 12:14 says without holiness, no man shall see the Lord. Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.



What consequences could this really be that would truly matter?
To live is Christ and to die is gain.
Rewards? If one is with Jesus and in His Kingdom, what does one really need for any rewards?
One has got their guaranteed ticket to Heaven; That is all that matters.
Everything else is just minor and temporal and will not be all that big of a deal when looking ahead eternally.
Is not the real treasure or pearl of great price... Jesus?
Suffering in this life? Does not Scripture say that all who live Godly in Christ shall suffer persecution?
Paul had a thorn in his side. Is that not a bad consequence?
Why are Christians persecuted and then killed?



No. This is talking about spiritual death. If you were to keep reading, it says in verses 31-32,

1 Cor 11:31 "For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
1 Cor 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world." (1 Corinthians 11:31-32).

In other words, verses 31-32 is giving us the solution so as not to sleep, be sick, or weak spiritually. For it says if we judge ourselves. Why do we need to judge ourselves? So as to prevent ourselves in treating fellow believers with a lack of love by eating up all the food in fellowship gathers and or getting drunk around them. Scripture says drunkards will not inherit the Kingdom of God. Also, if one does not love their brother, they do not have eternal life abiding in them (See 1 John 3:15).

As for the word "sick" in 1 Corinthians 11:29-30: Jesus says,

"When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." (Mark 2:17).

A doctor is to heal a person of their disease. Their disease was that they were sick by living in sin. That is why Jesus does not call the righteous, but sinners to repentance so that these sinners can live righteously. They are sick because they are living in sin and thinking that is normal (When it is not). Repentance is a cry out unto God that is always followed by the fruits of repentance (i.e. forsaking sin). Jesus says that the Ninevites will rise up in Judgment because they repented at the preaching of Jonah (Matthew 12:41). If you were to turn to Jonah 3:6-10, you would see that the King of the Ninevites had told his people to:

(a) Cry out to God.
(b) Forsake your sinful ways.

When God had seen that the Ninevites had forsaken their wickeness or sin, that is when He pulled back His wrath or judgment that He was going to bring upon them.

Oh, and by the way. How is God exactly Calvinistic in this scenario? If God predestined the Ninevites to be saved, then no Wrath or Judgment should have ever placed them in any kind of danger.

As for being spiritually asleep:
Romans 11 says this of Israel,

"(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear; ) unto this day." (Romans 11:8).

Acts 28:26 "Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
Act 28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them." (Acts of the Apostles 28:26-27).

The converted are those who are truly able to hear and understand and bring forth good fruit.

May the Lord's good ways always be upon you.

Sincerely,

~ Jason.


...
What is the definition of carnal? Because I don't think your definition is correct.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Well, your words here are just baseless accusations. You are not seeking to discuss this topic and learning whether it is true or not. For what is the worse thing that can happen if you walk righteously in the Lord? Will not the people of God be living righteously in His Kingdom? Does not your fight against living righteously go against that current place and people wherein dwells righteousness only?


....
Just because people know they sin, does NOt mean they are not and do not walk righteously. That is your claim
Not ours. The judgement is real here.
 
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The Bible says,

Rom 8:6 "For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."
(Romans 8:6-8).


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Peter J Barban

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When one admits that they cannot stop sinning it is contrary to living righteously.

Think about it.
Your fortune cookie phrase is more appropriate for Confucious.

Don't glide over your false accusation against me. You said, "Does not your fight against living righteously go against that current place and people wherein dwells righteousness only?" This is not the appropriate way to engage people seeking evidence that your claims are true.

If you repent, I will accept it.
 
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ToBeLoved

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The Bible says,

Rom 8:6 "For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."
(Romans 8:6-8).


...
You don't know?
 
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Your fortune cookie phrase is more appropriate for Confucious.

Don't glide over your false accusation against me. You said, "Does not your fight against living righteously go against that current place and people wherein dwells righteousness only?" This is not the appropriate way to engage people seeking evidence that your claims are true.

If you repent, I will accept it.

If the Bible teaches that a believer is to stop sinning (and it does), and somebody teaches contrary to that and says they will always sin in this life, then they are fighting against what God terms as "righteousness" or "holiness" according to His Word. For in Heaven, there will be nobody there who will think the way that many believers do now (Whereby they cannot stop sinning). There will be no justification of sinning the rest of one's life in Heaven. A believer who thinks they will never stop sinning in this life will really not enjoy a place like Heaven because it is against their way of thinking now. Some believers today say they sin in thought, and deed every day. They think this is the normal life of a Christian. But it is not. God wants His people to live according to His will and He does not want them to live the rest of their time here on this Earth to the lusts of the flesh. Jesus says, blessed is He who hungers and thirsts for righteousness, for He will be filled (Matthew 5:6). If somebody is really hungering and thirsting for righteousness, they want it now and not later. 1 Peter 4:1-2 says that he that suffers in the flesh has ceased from sin; And then it says that we should live the rest of our time to the will of God and not to the lusts of the flesh. Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts. Jesus says, a disciple is not above his master, but everyone that is perfect shall be as his master (Luke 6:40).


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Peter J Barban

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If the Bible teaches that a believer stop sinning (and it does), and somebody teaches contrary to that and says they will always sin in this life, then they are fighting against what God terms as "righteousness" or "holiness" according to His Word.
All well and good, but I have not done these things. Yet you have falsely accused me. Slandered me. Said evil about me. Without justification. You have destroyed your credibility on this forum.

Either provide evidence to back up your baseless libel or repent publically.
 
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Same problem in James 2 were they were mistreating the poor.

Mistreating the poor and the brethren is a salvation issue. That is what James is saying in James 2 that is confirmed elsewhere in Scripture (Matthew 25:31-46) (1 John 3:10) (1 John 3:15).

James says, "But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors." (James 2:9).

James says, "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (James 2:17).

James says, "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

James says, "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." (James 2:26).

James says,
Jam 1:21 "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jam 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves." (James 1:21-22).

You said:
In Jesus letter to the Ephesian church he says great job with you hard work in doctrine and fighting off false teachers. There is just one problem, you have left your first love. Jesus never says what that was, but I think I know, the church. How do you show your love for Christ in the world? You build up the body of Christ and the Ephesians were a thriving group of church builders, they raised up at least 7 churches in Asian Minor and some of those ministries (Smyrna and Philadelphia) spanned nearly a thousand years.

If you will take note that Jesus says to the church at Ephesus in Revelation 2 to repent and do the first works as to the reason why they lost their first love.

Rev 2:4 "Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works."
(Revelation 2:4-5).

What are the first works?
What prevents us as Christians in making Jesus our first love?
There are several basic things in loving God when we first come to Him.
We first repent and believe on Jesus as our Savior.
We realize it is His grace that ultimately saves us and we are thankful to Him for His grace.
Another is the 1st and greatest command: Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, and soul.
We should align our life and everything it with loving God. Our every thought and deed should be aligned in loving God. We should worship God in secret and pray to Him secret every chance we get.
The 2nd greatest command would also apply here, as well (Seeing it is like unto the 1st).
We are to love our neighbor. Pray and do good unto our enemies. We are to help and love the poor.
We are to love the brethren (our brothers and sisters in Christ). Jesus said to Peter, "Do you love me?"
Then Jesus said after repeating this to him to "feed my sheep." So we are to love the brethren and feed them with the Word of God and with ministering unto them. We are to preach the gospel unto all nations. This is showing how we love all people. For we are seeking to preach the good news to change men's hearts. We help those in love who are in need. Those who are suffering and afflicted. We love God and we love others. These are the first works that the church of Ephesus was losing signt of. For if one were to do these things, the Lord will be their 1st love.

But what is unsettling about a "Sin and still be saved gospel" is that it does not teach that works is necessary so as to be right with God. Yet, Jesus says, repent and do the first works.

I hope you may come back and re-read what I have written to you so that you may carefully consider what God's Word says here.

May God bless you.
And may you please be well.



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All well and good, but I have not done these things. Yet you have falsely accused me. Slandered me. Said evil about me. Without justification. You have destroyed your credibility on this forum.

Either provide evidence to back up your baseless libel or repent publically.

Well, first, you have falsely accused me several times already. You addressed me specifically when you attacked me with slanderous words (Which is against forum rules). Nowhere did I ever say in any posts about you or your status with the Lord. I always strive to speak in a third person kind of way (without using the word "you", etc.). Whether I am on the forums or not, I seek to attack the wrong belief and not the person. Do I sometimes slip up in my words? Yes. But I try to go back and edit them so as to speak in general terms about a belief and not to make it about you. My goal is to show you and all believers with Scripture as to why a particular wrong belief is not true. My focus is on Scripture; This is so as to reveal truth and my goal is not to attack you personally or to talk about you in any way whereby you may feel like I am condemning you. Scripture all on it's own should convict a person; Hence, why I primarly stick with the Scriptures instead of the tactic you have been using (Which is falsely accusing me).

For I merely plant seeds, another waters, and it is God that gives the increase.

May the Lord's love shine upon you;
And may you please be well.


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Jason0047 said:
Saints or believers are never called sinners by God. In fact, Jesus says to the believer in Matthew 7 who did wonderful works to depart from Him because he worked iniquity (Matthew 7:23). Iniquity is sin.
Really? Jesus called Peter the devil, Paul called him a hypocrite and on the night Jesus was betrayed he denied him three times.

No. I was not referring to individual believers who sin (and then obviously need to repent later of such sin). I am saying that there is nowhere in the Bible where God refers to his saints as a whole as being sinners (i.e. the body of Christ). In other words, we need a verse or passage that refers to the body of Christ as being sinners or with them being unfaithful to God in some way and yet they are still saved. Nowhere does the Bible use the specific words of saints as a whole in being sinners. The Bible calls believers "saints" for a very good reason. Also, nowhere does God say that a person is saved if they continue in their sin, either. Peter needed to repent of these sins that he had done towards his Lord; For if he did not repent of these sins, he would have been justifying serious sin and evil (and would be unsaved). 1 John 3:8 says he that commits sin is of the devil. The solution is restoration by God. 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Peter had denied Jesus. This is a serious sin that needed to be repented of. For Matthew 10:33 says, "But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven." Peter was also trying to prevent Jesus in finishing His mission in saving mankind. This would also be a serious sin because without Jesus going to the cross, we would all (including Peter) be doomed. Peter was not thinking of the things of God here. He was carnal in his thinking. But we know Peter must have repented of these things because he later was used by God in a great way (as we see in the rest of the New Testament Scriptures).

Hope you understand where I am coming from;
And may the Lord's peace rest upon you this fine day.


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The Scriptures Teaching on Sinless Perfectionism:

Sinless Perfectionism is the goal of our Sanctification. It is yet another Biblical doctrine that is commonly misunderstood and or denied amongst Eternal Security Proponents or those who do not believe that “Sin Cannot Separate a Believer From God.” Here is a...

List of Verses For Sinless Perfectionism (a.k.a. Entire Sanctification) in Scripture:
  1. The 144,000 are found without fault before the throne of God. For John says, “And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.” (Revelation 14:3-5).

  2. Enoch was translated and did not see death because he walked with the LORD and pleased GOD. For the author of Hebrews says, “By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.” (Hebrews 11:5); And Moses had written in the Torah, “And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.” (Genesis 5:24).

  3. Jesus says, “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” (Matthew 5:48).

  4. GOD says, “Be ye holy as I am holy” (1 Peter 1:16 cf. Leviticus 11:45).

  5. Jesus said to two people to, "sin no more." (John 5:14) (John 8:11). In fact, Jesus said to the man that Jesus healed that if he were to sin again, a worse thing would come upon him. For Jesus said, “sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.” (John 5:14).

  6. Jesus says, “If you want to be perfect sell your possessions and give them to the poor” (Matthew 19:21).

  7. We are told in Scripture that he [i.e. anyone] that has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin. For Peter says, “Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;” (1 Peter 4:1).

  8. Paul says, “And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.” (Galatians 5:24).

  9. James says, “If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.” (James 3:2).

  10. Paul says, “There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.” (1 Corinthians 10:13).

  11. David says, “Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.” (Psalms 119:11).

  12. Paul says, “Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him” (Romans 6:6-8).

  13. Paul says, “Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.” (Romans 6:12). John says, “sin not.” (1 John 2:1).

  14. Paul says, “For sin shall not have dominion over you.” (Romans 6:14).

  15. Paul says, “Don't you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey? You can be a slave to sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God, which leads to righteous living.” (Romans NLT). Jesus says, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. (John 8:34). John says he that sins is of the devil (1 John 1:8).

  16. Paul says, “You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.” (Romans 6:18 NIV).

  17. Paul says, “For when you were slaves of sin, you were free from righteousness.” (Romans 6:20 BLB). Paul also says, “But now that you have been freed from sin and have become God's slaves, the benefit you reap is sanctification, and the result is eternal life.” (Romans 6:22 ISV).

  18. Peter says, “there are false prophets... who cannot cease from sin.” (2 Peter 2:1, 2 Peter 2:14). This is similar to those who are lovers of pleasure more than they are lovers of GOD (1 Timothy 3:1-9). For he that says he knows him and does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in Him (1 John 2:4).

  19. Jesus says, “Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.” (Matthew 26:41). What is the point of watching and praying so as not to be led into temptation if you are going to inevitably sin again?

  20. Paul says “Be ye angry, and sin not:” (Ephesians 4:26).

  21. John says, “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:9-10)

  22. John says,“For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.” (1 John 5:4). John also says, “For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.” (1 John 2:16). For John says, “Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.” (1 John 2:15).

  23. Paul says, “Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.” (1 Corinthians 15:34).

  24. The author of Hebrews says, “Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is well pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen” (Hebrews 13:20-21).

  25. John says, “We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness” (1 John 5:18-19).

  26. Sinless Perfectionism is the goal for a believer’s life. For Paul says, “Not that I have already obtained it [this goal of being Christlike] or have already been made perfect, but I actively press on so that I may take hold of that [perfection] for which Christ Jesus took hold of me and made me His own.” (Philippians 3:12 AMP).

  27. Jesus says, “The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.” (Luke 6:40).

  28. Paul says, “Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.” (Colossians 4:12).

  29. Paul says, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.” (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

  30. James says, “But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.” (James 1:4). James also says, ““Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?” (James 2:22).

  31. Jesus says, ““Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.” (Revelation 3:2).

  32. Paul says, “Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.” (2 Corinthians 7:1).

  33. Paul says, “I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,” (Ephesians 4:1).

  34. Paul says, “For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;” (1 Thessalonians 4:3-4). Paul also says, “For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.” (1 Thessalonians 4:7).

  35. Zacharias says, “That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.” (Luke 1:74-75).

  36. Paul says, “And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;” (Colossians 1:20-23).

  37. Paul says, “And may the Lord make you increase and abound in love for one another and for all men, even as we do for you. To this end may He establish your hearts to be blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.” (1 Thessalonians 3:12-13 MEV).

  38. Paul says,“Men, brothers, I have conducted-myself with all good conscience before God up to this day” (Acts 23:1 DLNT)

  39. Paul says, “This work must continue until we are all joined together in the same faith [or all reach unity in the faith] and in the same knowledge of the Son of God. We must become like a mature person [or the perfect Man; Christ], growing until we become like Christ and have his perfection [ to the measure of the stature of Christ’s fullness ].” (Ephesians 4:13 EXB).

  40. Paul says, “It is he whom we proclaim, admonishing everyone and teaching everyone with all wisdom, that we may present everyone perfect in Christ” (Colossians 1:28 NABRE).

  41. Paul says, “For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.” (2 Corinthians 11:2).

  42. Paul says, “In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ” (Colossians 2:11).

  43. Paul says, “And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Thessalonians 5:23).

  44. The author Hebrews says, “Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord” (Hebrews 12:14).

  45. Paul says, “Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish” (Ephesians 5:25-27). Jesus says, “Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.” (John 17:17-19). For Jesus says, “Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you” (John 15:3).

  46. John says, “For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.” (1 John 3:8).

  47. Paul says, “But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

  48. Jesus says, “So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests. And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth” (Matthew 22:10-13). A Multitude of People in Heaven says, “Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.(Revelation 19:7-8). Note: the fine linen that represents the righteousness of the saints is the same wedding garment that the man at the wedding did not have on.

  49. Paul says, “That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world.” (Philippians 2:15).

  50. John says, “But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.” (1 John 2:5).

Real world example:

An alcoholic can condone his alcohol by him saying he can drink occasionally on his way to being sober free. But he will never be sober free because he has no intention of stopping. He hoping one day somebody else will stop him.

If GOD is perfect in all He does, then why cannot GOD perfect a believer while they still live?

Are they saying they are more powerful than GOD?

For why would a person want to continue in sin on any level?
For if a person knew of a way to stop sinning so as to please God, why would they not want to take that chance?

For would not the opposite of Sinless Perfectionism be Sinful Imperfectionism? Is there such a thing as a “sinning saint”? What about a righteous sinner?

But some will object and say they believe that they are for living righteously. But how much should one live righteously? Are we to live righteously at about 90%? How about 80%? 75%? 20%? Is there a percentage that we do not cross the line at?

Anyways, here are some more….

Common Objections to Sinless Perfectionism (With Answers That Resolve them):

#1. Objection: So if a believer has not reached a state of Sinless Perfectionism, does that mean they are not saved?

Answer: No. Sinless Perfectionism is merely the goal for a believer’s life (Philippians 3:12). The Scriptures talk about how this is a possible goal for us to achieve while we are still yet alive. But the problem with denying the Bible’s teaching on Sinless Perfectionism is that it suggest that a person's goal or aim is not to try and be perfect before GOD but it is to still hold onto sin on some level (even if it is a sin done on rare occasion). For can a serial killer who comes to Christ still murder as long as he does so every ten years (chocking it up to his will is weak and that even believers sin)? Does not Paul essentially say that we used to be sinners? (Ephesians 2:2-3, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Colossians 3:5-7, Ephesians 4:17-24).

#2. Objection: So are you sinless?

Answer: This of course is an ad hominem or a verbal attack that is not founded upon God’s Word. For one, the Scriptures teach that a person can get right with GOD and have their past sins forgiven by coming to Jesus and repenting of their sins to Him. From that point on, they allow Jesus to do the good work within them. Two, not all sin is the same. In fact, there are three different types of sins.

(a) Sins that lead unto death (1 John 5:16-18).

Sins unto death are sins that lead to the second death that are not repented of. Such sins would be murder, hate, whoremongering, and lying, etc. For according to Revelation 21:8, these are the type of sins that lead unto to the second death (a.k.a. Lake of Fire) (Also see Galatians 5:19-21, Colossians 3:5-6, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11).

(b) Sins that do not lead unto death (1 John 5:16-18).

Sins not unto death are sins in Revelation 21:8 that are repented of. They are also the types of sins like not being baptized (1 Peter 3:21), or causing divisions within the body (1 Corinthians 3), and hidden or secret faults (Psalms 19:12).

(c) Unforgivable sins.

Unforgivable sins are sins that cannot be forgiven. These types of sins would be speaking bad words against the Holy Ghost (Matthew 12:31-32), committing suicide and staying dead (1 John 3:15) (1 Corinthians 3:16-17), and taking the mark of the beast (Revelation 14:9-10).​

#3. Objection: I don’t see anyone who has stopped sinning or who is living righteously.

Answer: First, we are called to live by faith and not by sight. For without faith it is impossible to please GOD. Second, if you lived during Noah’s time in a region that was very far away from Noah, you wouldn’t have been able to see anyone living righteously around you. Yet, the Scriptures say that Noah was a preacher of righteousness and the whole world was destroyed for their wickedness as an example to all those who would live ungodly thereafter.

#4. Objection: It’s self righteousness to want to overcome sin.

Answer: Is it really? Does not God call us to be holy as He? Also, say a person struggles with the sin of drug abuse or sex addiction outside of marriage. Would you say that a person is being self righteous who wants to overcome these sins? Surely not. Overcoming sin is merely a desire to be closer to GOD and in pleasing Him. People who are self righteous like the Pharisees were criticized by Jesus for not keeping God’s Word. They appeared to others as being righteous, but inwardly they were wicked. Jesus did not say to them that they needed to have a mere belief alone on Him. Jesus told them to clean the inside of the cup.

#5. Objection: It is impossible to stop sinning.

Answer: This is simply not true. There are many verses that suggest that a believer can stop sinning. Also, when the disciples asked who can be saved when they found out that rich men cannot be saved, Jesus said, “With men this is impossible, but with GOD all things are possible.” Meaning, that GOD can change the heart of a man (if he is willing to come to Him). Meaning, the LORD can help people to overcome their sin. For Jesus was manifested to destroy the works of the devil (not just on the cross, but in your life, too).

#6. Objection: Does not 1 John 1:8 say that if we have no sin we deceive ourselves?

Answer: Well, 1 John 1:8 does not say that a believer will always be abiding in some kind of sin. That is not what it is talking about. 1 John 3:4 says, "sin is transgression of the Law." Breaking a Law is breaking God's Commandments. 1 John 2:4 says if a person breaks God's Commandments (i.e. if they sin) and they say they know Him, they are a liar and the truth is not in Him. 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the light as he is in the light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. So 1 John 1:8 cannot be saying you will always be breaking God's Commandments or sinning at some point in your life. Then what is 1 John 1:8 saying?

Well, the New English Translation says this for 1 John 1:8,

"If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8 NET).​

In other words, this verse is saying that if a person sins and says they do not bear the guilt of sin (in the sense that they will not have to face any wrath or Judgment from God over their sin) then they would be deceiving themselves and the truth would not be in them. This is exactly what the Eternal Security proposes. They are saying that they do not bear the guilt of any sin (destruction of their soul and body in hell fire) if they do sin because they believe their sins are paid for: Past, present, and future by Jesus. They are saying, they do not bear the guilt or the punishment of sin at the final Judgment because of their belief on Jesus. In short, 1 John 1:8 is a denial of the existence of sin on some level. “If we say we have no sin (in the sense that it does not exist) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8). Christian Scientists think sin is an illusion and does not exist at all. So this verse would apply to them. Eternal Security Proponents and those who deny that “Sin Can Separate a Believer from God” deny the existence of sin partially. They believe sin exists physically but they do not believe sin exists for them on a spiritual level because Jesus paid for it all by their belief on Jesus.

#7. Objection: Does not Paul say he struggled with sin in Romans 7?

Answer: Well, in the majority of Romans 7, Paul is recounting the experience of the Israelite or Jew's history with the keeping of the Law. Paul is Jewish and he was a Pharisee, so he also included an account of his own personal struggle in trying to keep the Law (while as a Pharisee before he became a Christian).

(a) Romans 7:5 deals with Paul and other ex-Law keeper’s struggle (who are now Christian) in trying to keep the Law.

(b) Romans 7:7-13 Paul speaks from the perspective of Israelite history and experience with Old Testament Law. Paul uses the word “I” in reference to the Israelite receiving of the Law of Moses. Note: This is not the first time Paul uses the word “I” in reference to somebody else’s experience (See Galatians 2:18).

(c) Romans 7:14-24 speaks of Paul and the other ex-Law-keeper’s own personal struggle (who are now Christian) with trying to obey the Law before knowing Jesus Christ.

(b) In Romans 7:25, Paul then transitions the conversation that with Jesus Christ he can then be delivered from the body of death that controlled him as a part of his old religious life as a Pharisee and a Jew (See Romans 7:24-25).

5 "For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law [i.e. the 613 Old Testament Commands], did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law [i.e. the 613 Old Testament Commandments], that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit [i.e. the Commands by Jesus and His followers in the New Testament], and not in the oldness of the letter [i.e. the 613 Old Testament Commandments].
(Romans 7:5-6).​

For Romans 8:2 mentions two laws.

“For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.” (Romans 8:2).

There is...

(a) The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (i.e. A New Covenant Law).
Which is walking after the Spirit in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1).

(b) The Law of Sin and Death (i.e. An Old Covenant Law).
This was the Old Testament Law that could condemn you by capital punishment or with physical death. Hence, why it is called the Law of Sin and Death.​

In Romans 8:4, obeying the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus helps us to fulfill the righteous part or aspect of the Old Law, which is to love your neighbor (See Romans 13:8-10).

Side Note:

Oh, and also Paul says in Romans 7:14 that he is sold under sin and yet in Romans 8:2 he says he is free from sin. So unless Paul is contradicting himself, he is clearly speaking from two different perspectives here.

#8. Objection: Does not Matthew 6:12 tell us to forgive us our debts which is a part of the Lord’s Prayer?

Answer: Well, I used to think that the Lord’s prayer was a daily prayer for all believers (to be prayed as an outline) over the course of our whole lives. But after examining the Scriptures, this is simply not so. First, of all, it does not say it is a daily prayer. Second, while this prayer can be prayed in a daily manner, it is a prayer for new believers in the faith. It is a starter prayer that helps a new believer to walk uprightly and give glory to GOD and in seeking His will for their life because the disciples asked how should they pray. Forgive us our debts (sins) as we forgive our debtors (i.e. those who sin against us) may not always apply. There may be a day where nobody sins against you. Also, what about verse 13? If we pray not to be led into temptation and ask GOD to deliver us from evil and GOD answers that prayer, are we going to keep praying for GOD to deliver us from evil when He has answered our prayer in being delivered from evil? In other words, it does not make any sense to pray for something that GOD will never give to you in this life.

#9. Objection: Does not Romans 3:23 say that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God?

Answer: First, Romans 3 is dealing with initial acceptance of Christ or in how we are ultimately saved. For before Christ, we are all (both Jew and Gentile) under sin. For Romans 3:3 says this about the unbelieving Jew, “For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?” In addition, Romans 5:2 says, “By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand,”. In other words, Paul is talking about initial salvation thru faith in Christ (Justification) and he is not talking about Sanctification (Holiness) that follows. Second, if you take Romans 3:23 and Romans 3:10 as talking about faithful believers who live righteously in Christ, then you must also believe that faithful believers in Christ also have no understanding and that they do not seek after God, too.

For Romans 3:11 says,

"There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God."
(Romans 3:11).
How in the world did Paul ever gain any understanding to preach to people?

In other words, Romans 3 is referencing the unbelieving Gentiles or the fools who say there is no God in Psalms 14:1 (Compare Romans 3:10 and Psalms 14).

#10. Objection: Does not Ecclesiastes 7:20 say there is not a just man upon earth that does good and sins not?

Answer: Well, here is what Ecclesiastes 7:20 says in the Good News Translation:

Ecclesiastes 7:20 GNT
"There is no one on earth who does what is right all the time and never makes a mistake."​

In other words, this is speaking of the fact that a believer may do things that would not be classified as a sin that leads unto death (i.e. the Second Death or the Lake of Fire). Mistakes would fall under the category of hidden or secret faults as mentioned in Psalm 19:12. This is not talking about serious sins that lead unto spiritual death like lying, hating, stealing, murdering, fornicating, and getting drunk, etc.

Also, this was during the time of the Old Testament, too (See Hebrews 11:40)

#11. Objection: Does not Ephesians 2:8-9, and Titus 3:5 teach against Sinless Perfectionism?

Answer: Well, when we read these types of verses in Scripture, we have to also read James 2:17, Titus 1:16, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 12:14 to get a balanced view of Scripture. In other words, Ephesians 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5 are talking about Initial Salvation or how we are ultimately saved (Justification) which is by repentance and a belief in Jesus. James 2:17, Titus 1:16, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 12:14 are talking about your allowance in letting Jesus to do good works thru your life (i.e. Sanctification or holiness). Salvation is a person named Jesus. So if a person abides in Christ, they are saved and good fruit will be the proof in the pudding that Christ truly lives within them or not.

#12. Objection: Does not confessing our sins to the LORD in 1 John 2:1, and 1 John 1:9 mean we will never be sinless?

Answer: Having an advocate that we can confess our sins to does mean we trivialize sin or not treat it as seriously. Confessing sins goes hand in hand with forsaking sin (1 John 1:7).

Yes, even the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee teaches that GOD’s grace is there for us if we do honestly sin, but the other lesson of the parable (that most people miss) is that the pharisee did not even humble himself to confess his sin in the first place. Nowhere does this parable teach that a person will always sin. It is clear from Jesus’s encounters with the Pharisees that they did not repent to GOD of their sins and they were not living righteously. For Jesus called them hypocrites.

Jesus said the Ninevites will rise up in Judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah (Matthew 12:41). If you were to turn to Jonah 3:6-10, you would see that the King of the Ninevites had told his people to cry out to GOD and to forsake their sin. When the people had turned from their wickedness, then GOD had decided to not bring wrath or Judgment upon them.

What is the point of confession if a person is going to just sin again?

Can a husband still cheat on his spouse the rest of his life on occasion to his wife as long as he just says he is sorry? Surely not. It is the same with GOD. For GOD takes certain sins very seriously. If a person minimizes sin by saying to themselves that they are just going to sin at some point in the future because they cannot help it, then they are condoning sin (Which is wrong). In fact, GOD would have to agree with a person's thinking that it is okay for them to sin again in the future with the idea that the LORD is going to save them. But can GOD agree with sin? Surely not. While GOD can be merciful and while He can forgive a lot, if a person goes into their walk with GOD thinking they are just bound to sin against Him at some point in the future, then that is exactly what they are going to do. They have already made up their mind to sin (Which is wrong).

In conclusion, I will leave the reader with the following verse.

“An unthinking person believes everything, but the prudent one thinks before acting.” (Proverbs 14:15 ISV).



...

Hi Jason, so here you are. BTW you have mail.

I just wanted to add one type of sin to your list of three, and that is unknown sins, sins we commit unintentionally due to lack of knowledge. 1 John 1:7 talks about walking in the Spirit, and the blood of Jesus cleansing us from sin. So what sins are you going to commit while walking in the Spirit? Obviously, things the Spirit hasn't convicted of us yet. But they are still imperfections, and fall short of God's perfection. I also believe this type of sin is what 1 John 2:1 is referring to, that Jesus is our Advocate. Note, there was no mention of repentance needed. Therefore, you don't know about them. Only willful sins require repentance. Only then are they cleansed.
 
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Jason0047 said:
Jesus did not say, "Depart from me because I did not choose you to be saved."
Jesus did not say, "Depart from me because you did not have a belief alone on me."
In fact, Matthew 7:26-27 makes the point about how if we do not do what Jesus says, we are like fools who built our house upon the sand and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house.
Jesus didn't say based on your profession or belief, he suggested no such thing. You have some real issues following the context. I was hungry you did not feed me, I was thirsty you did not give me to drink...etc. Who were these people they mistreated without ever having met him? It's the body of believers and God takes that personally. I honestly think you should stop cross referencing immediately and go learn what this means, a text without a context is a pretext.

You have said,

"You can be carnal and still be saved..." ~ Mark Kennedy.

"Faith is never alone but with regards to faith that brings salvation it is apart from works."
~ Mark Kennedy.​

My response:
Well, your reply here does not make sense in light of these two other statements. You appear to be suggesting that Matthew 7:23 is in direct context to Matthew 25:41-46 (in regards to the believer who did not help the poor in this life). While it is certainly possible that the believer in Matthew 7:23 did not help the poor, it does not specifically state that this is the type of sin or iniquity they committed exactly. Jesus simply said they worked iniquity. "Iniquity can be any sin." Yes, there does appear to be a loose connection between Matthew 7:23 and Matthew 25:41-46. For a person who visits the stranger does imply that they know that stranger (i.e. they know Jesus). But I do not see how the connection between Matthew 7 and Matthew 25 helps you in any way here. Helping the poor implies works and it is said in Matthew 25 that by not helping the poor, it will lead one to going away into everlasting punishment. So your statement that a Christian can be carnal or they can be saved by faith alone without works is simply not true. After being saved by God's grace, a Christian has to also maintain good works such as helping the poor in this life. If not, then there will be serious consequences to their soul in the after life if they refuse to help the poor here upon this Earth.

Also, Jesus identifies with those who are righteous. So when a person sins, all their previous righteousness will no longer be remembered. Hence, Jesus will no longer know them anymore as per Matthew 7:23. Ezekiel 18 says,

"But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die." (Ezekiel 18:24).

Also, just helping the poor does not mean a person knows Jesus. Unbelieving rich actors help the poor and do all kinds of great acts of charity. But that does not mean they know Jesus. So it is more than just helping the poor (While that is an important part of our faith). We can have an assurance of knowing Jesus if we find that we are keeping His commandments (1 John 2:3). He that says he knows him and does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him (1 John 2:4).

Jesus is the source of our salvation. For he that has the Son has life and he that does not have the Son, does not have life (1 John 5:12). In other words, if there is no Jesus living on the inside of a believer, then they are not saved according to this verse; And if one is not keeping God's Commmands, then they are a liar and the truth (Jesus) is not in them. For the assurance of whether we know Jesus or not is in keeping His commandments (1 John 2:3).

I hope this helps you to see where I am coming from.
May the Lord's goodness be upon you;
And please be well.


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Hi Jason, so here you are. BTW you have mail.

Well, I was not sure of what to say to you (at the time). I do not know where he is at; He lives in Canada. I live in the States; And we have never met personally. While I would like to be closer in fellowship with him (even online), that is not a part of God's plan at this time. He has a street ministry, so I imagine that he is keeping busy lately with that. In the mean time, we should keep our prayers with him indeed in His service to the Lord.

You said:
I just wanted to add one type of sin to your list of three, and that is unknown sins, sins we commit unintentionally due to lack of knowledge.

I would classify this under sins that do not lead unto spiritual death. These would be minor faults or small transgressions and it would not be the types of sins like murder, hate, adultery, theft, etc.

You said:
1 John 1:7 talks about walking in the Spirit, and the blood of Jesus cleansing us from sin. So what sins are you going to commit while walking in the Spirit? Obviously, things the Spirit hasn't convicted of us yet. But they are still imperfections, and fall short of God's perfection.

Yes, I think we agree that sins that we may not be aware of right away are imperfections and falling short of the glory of God.

You said:
I also believe this type of sin is what 1 John 2:1 is referring to, that Jesus is our Advocate. Note, there was no mention of repentance needed. Therefore, you don't know about them. Only willful sins require repentance. Only then are they cleansed.

I disagree. 1 John 2:1 is tied to 1 John 1:9. 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness. Peter said to Simon to repent of his wickedness in trying to pay for the receiving of the Holy Spirit. Peter told him to pray that God would forgive him (Acts of the Apostles 8:22). So this was a serious sin that Simon needed to confess by way of prayer to God. Even in the Parable of the Prodigal Son, we see the son desiring repentance before his father and heaven because of his riotous living (i.e. his exceeding sinful life) (Luke 15:11-32).

Also, John's epistle continues to talk about being in darkness if one hates their brother (1 John 2:9); For he that hates his brother is like a murderer, and no eternal life abides within them (1 John 3:15). So serious sin is the topic at hand here. For even 1 John 2:2 deals with Christ being the propitation for the sins of the whole world. This would not be just minor transgressions or faults alone in regards to 1 John 2:1. This would include all sins, especially the major and or more serious sins.


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1stcenturylady

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Well, I was not sure of what to say to you (at the time). I do not know where he is at; He lives in Canada. I live in the States; And we have never met personally. While I would like to be closer in fellowship with him (even online), that is not a part of God's plan at this time. He has a street ministry, so I imagine that he is keeping busy lately with that. In the mean time, we should keep our prayers with him indeed in His service to the Lord.



I would classify this under sins that do not lead unto spiritual death. These would be minor faults or small transgressions and it would not be the types of sins like murder, hate, adultery, theft, etc.



Yes, I think we agree that sins that we may not be aware of right away are imperfections and falling short of the glory of God.



I disagree. 1 John 2:1 is tied to 1 John 1:9. 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness. Peter said to Simon to repent of his wickedness in trying to pay for the receiving of the Holy Spirit. Peter told him to pray that God would forgive him (Acts of the Apostles 8:22). So this was a serious sin that Simon needed to confess by way of prayer to God. Even in the Parable of the Prodigal Son, we see the son desiring repentance before his father and heaven because of his riotous living (i.e. his exceeding sinful life) (Luke 15:11-32).

Also, John's epistle continues to talk about being in darkness if one hates their brother (1 John 2:9); For he that hates his brother is like a murderer, and no eternal life abides within them (1 John 3:15). So serious sin is the topic at hand here. For even 1 John 2:2 deals with Christ being the propitation for the sins of the whole world. This would not be just minor transgressions or faults alone in regards to 1 John 2:1. This would include all sins, especially the major and or more serious sins.


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Hear me out, 1 John 1:9 is for becoming a Christian, or for those who commit a serious sin and need to come back to God. It follows 1 John 1:8 which are those who are still sinners and have never repented, let alone turned their lives over to Christ. Repentance is required. But 1 John 2:1 does not coincide to 1 John 1:9, but to 1 John 1:7 for those walking in the Spirit; they have an Advocate because they belong to Him. Neither verses 1:7 or 2:1 show sins that require repentance. 1 John 1:9 are for those at the beginning of their walk. That is when you are cleansed of ALL sin.
 
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Peter J Barban

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Well, your words here are just baseless accusations. You are not seeking to discuss this topic and learning whether it is true or not. For what is the worse thing that can happen if one walks righteously in the Lord? Will not the people of God be living righteously in His Kingdom? Does not the Anti Sinless Perfection belief work against living righteously? Does it not work against that current place and people wherein dwells righteousness only?
Your original post has been quietly edited to remove the slander. Thanks for that. I was just checking it again before appealing to the moderators. So, good timing! However, you still owe me an apology. Apologizing for false accusation is what a godly person would do. Are you godly enough to publically apologize for your false accusation against me?
 
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