Is Mary God?

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amariselle

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You have images of them up in the home? You smile at the images? You may kiss them?

Actually, no. I do not kiss them.

However, having pictures of your loved ones is not wrong. If you bow down to pray to them, that would indeed be idolatrous.
 
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PeaceB

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What "man-made" tradition?
Your man made tradition that we may not kneel in front of a statute of Mary to pray. You have put your tradition above the clear word of God, which states no such thing.
 
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Mountainmike

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That's why the Apostles passed down important teachings through Apostolic succession / Tradition through the true church of Christ, the Catholic Church!

Spot on Goatee..

Our non catholic friends have several serious misunderstandings, indeed several failings in simple logic..

First they say "where does it say I should/Should not do XY and Z in the bible". But the bible nowhere claims to be a comprehensive or complete manual of christian life. Indeed scripture says hold true to tradition (ie handed down) we taught you by word of mouth and letter so that is where we must look for answers.

They say the bible is the only "source of all essential truth", dismissing all else, yet they seem to miss the inevitable logic that by that statement they declare their highest essential truth, the very foundation of truth, to be "the bible is the only source of all essential truth". Since the bible does not contain any statement of such truth anywhere in it, so omits their highest essential truth, their logic is self refuting and their highest truth cannot be true!. And worse, scripture actually disagrees in saying the foundation of truth is the church!

They seem to have no idea of the history of christianity or scripture, because Jesus did not give us a book, that came later, he gave us apostles to hand down the truth so do they think there could be no christians before the fourth century, since that is the first time there was a new testament for them to follow? Even if a new testament had been available until recently none could afford it, and even fewer could read it! Perhaps that is why Jesus gave us apostles and succession not a book. He figured most could not read one!

They also miss that the new testament was compiled by the councils comprised of early fathers whose views they disdain. Disregard the councils and they have no new testament.

They miss the fact that scripture does not carry unambiguous meaning, and can only be resolved by tradition and authority.

So they ignore the evidence of their own eyes. That when all interpret the bible they come to as many different conclusions about the meaning. The meaning is unique of course. So would our Lord have allowed so many variations of truth. No. He says His church will be one, and the gates of hell would not prevail. Since truth cannot change , so to find the true church look for a church built on the rock of Peter, whose doctrine has barely changed in 2000 years and only then in minor issues of interpretation.

There is only one that qualifies. Us.

The plethora of disparate denominations and man made traditions in confessions, articles and the like, that fracture with regular monotony cannot be the true church. They are not one. They did not start with early christians, and they dont practice christianity anything like early christians who were taught by the apostles. They disagree with each other on all aspects of doctrine, let alone us.

So how do we get through to them Goatee?
Hard to know.

I live in hope that just a few look at some of the references to such as the davidic queens, and realise that Marys role is foretold like much else in the old testament, if you know where to look.

And once in a while someone does contact me to say "they never realised" and ask me for more references, some ultimately making the journey I too made. Just one makes it all worthwhile.
 
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amariselle

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When will these poor souls who lack the truth stop relying on their own man made traditions and stick to the clear word of God? Do they even read it?

You have been given the word of God in relation to Catholic teachings (specifically about Mary, as this thread is about her) many times by many different people, because they care about you.

And yet you ask when we will stop relying on "our man-made traditions and stick to the word of God?" And you wonder, "do they even read it?"

Funny, coming from someone who refuses to even acknowledge Scripture when it is shared and in clear contrast and disagreement with Catholic practices and teachings. It's easier to just pretend the Bible doesn't actually say what it clearly does say I guess. That way one can carry on doing as one pleases.

Well, I wish you all the best.

Hopefully these concerns will at least get someone else to ask the honest questions and search the Scriptures.

I'm out. (Again) Perhaps if someone else comes along who is willing to address the Bible verses I shared honestly, rather than ignoring them, I'll come back.

God bless.
 
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amariselle

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Spot on Goatee..

Our non catholic friends have several serious misunderstandings, indeed several failings in simple logic..

First they say "where does it say I should/Should not do XY and Z in the bible". But the bible nowhere claims to be a comprehensive or complete manual of christian life. Indeed scripture says hold true to tradition (ie handed down) we taught you by word of mouth and letter so that is where we must look for answers.

They say the bible is the only "source of all essential truth", dismissing all else, yet they seem to miss the inevitable logic that by that statement they declare their highest essential truth, the very foundation of truth, to be "the bible is the only source of all essential truth". Since the bible does not contain any statement of such truth anywhere in it, so omits their highest essential truth, their logic is self refuting and their highest truth cannot be true!. And worse, scripture actually disagrees in saying the foundation of truth is the church!

They seem to have no idea of the history of christianity or scripture, because Jesus did not give us a book, that came later, he gave us apostles to hand down the truth so do they think there could be no christians before the fourth century, since that is the first time there was a new testament for them to follow?

They also miss that the new testament was compiled by the councils comprised of early fathers whose views they disdain. Disregard the councils and they have no new testament.

They miss the fact that scripture does not carry unambiguous meaning, and can only be resolved by tradition and authority.

So they ignore the evidence of their own eyes. That when all interpret the bible they come to as many different conclusions about the meaning. The meaning is unique of course. So would our Lord have allowed so many variations of truth. No. He says His church will be one, and the gates of hell would not prevail. Since truth cannot change , so to find the true church look for a church built on the rock of Peter, whose doctrine has barely changed in 2000 years and only then in minor issues of interpretation.

There is only one that qualifies. Us.

The plethora of disparate denominations and man made traditions in confessions, articles and the like, that fracture with regular monotony cannot be the true church. They are not one. They did not start with early christians, and they dont practice christianity anything like early christians who were taught by the apostles. They disagree with each other on all aspects of doctrine, let alone us.

So how do we get through to them Goatee?
Hard to know.

I live in hope that just a few look at some of the references to such as the davidic queens, and realise that Marys role is foretold like much else in the old testament, if you know where to look.

And once in a while someone does contact me to say "they never realised" and ask me for more references, some ultimately making the journey I too made. Just one makes it all worthwhile.

The Church is all who believe on Jesus Christ as Saviour. It's not complicated.

As for Catholic doctrine hardly changing in 2,000 years...you might want to do some research on that.
 
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PeaceB

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You have been given the word of God in relation to Catholic teachings (specifically about Mary, as this thread is about her) many times by many different people, because they care about you.

And yet you ask when we will stop relying on "our man-made traditions and stick to the word of God?" And you wonder, "do they even read it?"

Funny, coming from someone who refuses to even acknowledge Scripture when it is shared and in clear contrast and disagreement with Catholic practices and teachings. It's easier to just pretend the Bible doesn't actually say what it clearly does say I guess. That way one can carry on doing as one pleases.

Well, I wish you all the best.

Hopefully these concerns will at least get someone else to ask the honest questions and search the Scriptures.

I'm out. (Again) Perhaps if someone else comes along who is willing to address the Bible verses I shared honestly, rather than ignoring them, I'll come back.

God bless.
No. None of the Scripture verses you cited contradict Catholic faith or practice. You did not provide even one single verse that does that. Please continue to search the Scriptures until you come to the Catholic truth. It is never too late to repent from your errors and come home to the Church that Jesus founded.

God bless.
 
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amariselle

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No. None of the Scripture verses you cited contradict Catholic faith or practice. You did not provide even one single verse that does that. Please continue to search the Scriptures until you come to the Catholic truth. It is never too late to repent from your errors and come home to the Church that Jesus founded.

God bless.

You can ignore what those verses say if want, the choice is yours.

It's precisely because I've searched the Scriptures and done careful and continuous research into the Catholic Church traditons/the Cathechism/the Papacy etc., that I will never be Catholic.

God bless.
 
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PeaceB

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You can ignore what those verses say if want, the choice is yours.

It's precisely because I've searched the Scriptures and done careful and continuous research into the Catholic Church traditons/the Cathechism/the Papacy etc., that I will never be Catholic.

God bless.
I became Catholic because of the grace of God.

You may or you may not become Catholic, just as I may or may not become Protestant. Only God knows what will happen tomorrow and the next day.

God bless.
 
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Mountainmike

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But then.
You probably misunderstand the history and role of scripture, even what tradition is (you use the phrase catholic traditions which is a big giveaway`, the role of the pope and his acceptance in primacy of honour by the very councils that defined your new testament , creed, and opposed many heresies.

One of the things I found most fascinating in my journey from protestant, evangelical then back to Rome, was that all reformationists had to presume a true church that they claim apostasized and so they wish to return there. And the amusing thing is the range of dates they choose for that apostasy! The ill informed pick constantines reign, but if they researched it in such as "the life of Anthony, anasthasius" whose ministry spanned both ends of constantine or later works like the "apostasy that never was" they discover that no doctrine actually changed. Sp none of the apostasy dates make any sense at all!

The only conclusion you can come to by studying early documents is that...
The early church was liturgical, sacramental, had a priesthood and bishopric, appointed by and as successors to the apostles, who alone were empowered to perform eucharist of the real presence, which really was considered the body and blood of our lord, which was why Romans thought they were cannibals in hushed rituals. The only mechanism of faith transfer to ordinary christians was tradition, other than a few letters between the apostolic successors , so faith was handed down by those appointed. And that none then believed then in sola scriptura, quite apart from anything else, the new testament did not exist, and the embryo of it was not compiled . The first canons (eg Marcions,) were actually declared heretical, the canon we now have was centuries in the making.

And that all the way to the new testament accepted by one of many councils, the bishop of rome was deemed successor of Peter and as such had primacy of honour, even the eastern now orthodox said so. Augustine lists all of them from the very first! Between the eastern and western churches, that was the whole of christendom, other than some declared heretics like gnostics!
They all believed in much the same things.
The myriad of other doctrines did not start till the reformation empowered all to make up their own doctrine, and many did just that!

Nothing much has actually changed in catholic church.

For sure an oak tree does not look like an acorn, and as the church grew its structure had to change. It looked different But it was the true church. Nothing changed. It was people. People do evil things. And bishops cardinals and not a few popes, certainly had fingers in the till. People are human. People are evil. But our lord promised us that the gates of hell would not prevail against it. And it has not.
RCC is like a supertanker, that takes for ever to do anything. Which is both its strength and its weakness. But it is still there after 2000 years.

If you wish to read a take on the papacy read "upon this rock" by Steve Ray. You may well find your arguments against it crumble in the light of truth. It is for example very important WHERE Jesus rock statement to Peter took place, to understand the context, of the (pagan) rock he was discriminating against in making Peter his rock.


You can ignore what those verses say if want, the choice is yours.

It's precisely because I've searched the Scriptures and done careful and continuous research into the Catholic Church traditons/the Cathechism/the Papacy etc., that I will never be Catholic.

God bless.
 
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amariselle

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But then.
You probably misunderstand the history and role of scripture, even what tradition is (you use the phrase catholic traditions which is a big giveaway`, the role of the pope and his acceptance in primacy of honour by the very councils that defined your new testament , creed, and opposed many heresies.

One of the things I found most fascinating in my journey from protestant, evangelical then back to Rome, was that all reformationists had to presume a true church that they claim apostasized and so they wish to return there. And the amusing thing is the range of dates they choose for that apostasy! The ill informed pick constantines reign, but if they researched it in such as "the life of Anthony, anasthasius" whose ministry spanned both ends of constantine or later works like the "apostasy that never was" they discover that no doctrine actually changed. Sp none of the apostasy dates make any sense at all!

The only conclusion you can come to by studying early documents is that...
The early church was liturgical, sacramental, had a priesthood and bishopric, appointed by and as successors to the apostles, who alone were empowered to perform eucharist of the real presence, which really was considered the body and blood of our lord, which was why Romans thought they were cannibals in hushed rituals. The only mechanism of faith transfer to ordinary christians was tradition, other than a few letters between the apostolic successors , so faith was handed down by those appointed. And that none then believed then in sola scriptura, quite apart from anything else, the new testament did not exist, and the embryo of it was not compiled . The first canons (eg Marcions,) were actually declared heretical, the canon we now have was centuries in the making.

And that all the way to the new testament accepted by one of many councils, the bishop of rome was deemed successor of Peter and as such had primacy of honour, even the eastern now orthodox said so. Augustine lists all of them from the very first! Between the eastern and western churches, that was the whole of christendom, other than some declared heretics like gnostics!
They all believed in much the same things.
The myriad of other doctrines did not start till the reformation empowered all to make up their own doctrine, and many did just that!

Nothing much has actually changed in catholic church.

For sure an oak tree does not look like an acorn, and as the church grew its structure had to change. It looked different But it was the true church. Nothing changed. It was people. People do evil things. And bishops cardinals and not a few popes, certainly had fingers in the till. People are human. People are evil. But our lord promised us that the gates of hell would not prevail against it. And it has not.
RCC is like a supertanker, that takes for ever to do anything. Which is both its strength and its weakness. But it is still there after 2000 years.

If you wish to read a take on the papacy read "upon this rock" by Steve Ray. You may well find your arguments against it crumble in the light of truth. It is for example very important WHERE Jesus rock statement to Peter took place, to understand the context, of the (pagan) rock he was discriminating against in making Peter his rock.

I've done my research, so please don't assume I don't know anything about the Catholic Church and the Papacy. (As well as all the doctrines that were made official over time, in regard to Mary for example). You say that Catholic doctrine has not changed, that everything that was accepted now was always accepted, but that is not true.

In any case, Papal hierarchy is quite obviously in shambles. When you look at the history it is nothing but a long line of corruption, sexual immorality and greed, as well as forged documents. I cannot believe that God chose people to become Pope through murder and greed and other immoral means. Just reading some of the statements various Popes made while they were Pope should be enough to convince anyone that the saying is true: "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely."

Also, the Bible is clear, Christ's kingdom is not of this world. (John 18:36) And yet Pope after Pope did in fact seek after worldly wealth, honour and power, in order to build up an earthly kingdom. Popes had power over earthly monarchs as well, and most disgustingly, made merchandise of people by selling them bogus "tickets" to Heaven. (Out of Purgatory)

In contrast to the claim the Papacy makes, here is what the Bible says it should be like among Christians:

"But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.

But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;

And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:

Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many."
- Matthew 20:25-28

"But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.

But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:

And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.

For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many."
- Mark 10:42-45


"And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest.

And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.


But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve." - Luke 22:24-26


"But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.

And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted."
- Matthew 23:8-12


It's worth noting, that Peter, who the Catholic Church claims was the first Pope, was present when Jesus spoke the words recorded in these verses. Therefore, he would have understood that such a position was forbidden by Christ Himself. And indeed, we have no Scriptural record of Peter ever claiming such a title for Himself, nor being given one by anyone else.

There was a time, years ago, that I considered being Catholic, but all that I have learned over the years regarding the very foundations of the Catholic Church and it's "Tradition" has made that impossible.

Everyone needs to look into all of it for themselves, however. I realize that not even sharing Scripture with people will convince them that there are a lot of issues (very important ones) in regard to what the Catholic Church teaches.

God bless.
 
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PeaceB

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I've done my research, so please don't assume I don't know anything about the Catholic Church and the Papacy. (As well as all the doctrines that were made official over time, in regard to Mary for example). You say that Catholic doctrine has not changed, that everything that was accepted now was always accepted, but that is not true.

In any case, Papal hierarchy is quite obviously in shambles. When you look at the history it is nothing but a long line of corruption, sexual immorality and greed, as well as forged documents. I cannot believe that God chose people to become Pope through murder and greed and other immoral means. Just reading some of the statements various Popes made while they were Pope should be enough to convince anyone that the saying is true: "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely."

Also, the Bible is clear, Christ's kingdom is not of this world. (John 18:36) And yet Pope after Pope did in fact seek after worldly wealth, honour and power, in order to build up an earthly kingdom. Popes had power over earthly monarchs as well, and most disgustingly, made merchandise of people by selling them bogus "tickets" to Heaven. (Out of Purgatory)

In contrast to the claim the Papacy makes, here is what the Bible says it should be like among Christians:

"But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.

But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;

And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:

Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many."
- Matthew 20:25-28

"But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.

But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:

And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.

For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many."
- Mark 10:42-45


"And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest.

And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.


But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve." - Luke 22:24-26


"But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.

And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted."
- Matthew 23:8-12


It's worth noting, that Peter, who the Catholic Church claims was the first Pope, was present when Jesus spoke the words recorded in these verses. Therefore, he would have understood that such a position was forbidden by Christ Himself. And indeed, we have no Scriptural record of Peter ever claiming such a title for Himself, nor being given one by anyone else.

There was a time, years ago, that I considered being Catholic, but all that I have learned over the years regarding the very foundations of the Catholic Church and it's "Tradition" has made that impossible.

Everyone needs to look into all of it for themselves, however. I realize that not even sharing Scripture with people will convince them that there are a lot of issues (very important ones) in regard to what the Catholic Church teaches.

God bless.
The Catholic Church is full of sinners, yes.We knew that already.
 
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Mountainmike

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You should distinguish between failings of popes who are human and fallible, and the scriptural office of papacy.

If Luther had not had a hissy fit, and hung around a while longer he would have found the pope speak out against paid indulgencies, at the very next council only a few years on (which was the main gripe of his theses) The problem is the wheels of RCC turn but slowly so Luther's " I demand it now" was never realistic. What few realise is Luther regretted in later life, the monster he created, and wished he could go back. But the moving finger writes,

You trot out all the old easily debunked myths, e.g. The easily refuted hyperbole " Call no man father " so you have not studied Catholicism, just anti Catholicism. The two bear little relation.

You clearly had not studied the origins of calling mother of Davidic king the queen, before declare it pagan!

All I can say is study it. Give it a chance, And whatever you now call home in the church, read the testimony of many pastors and theologians of that denomination whose study of early church led them on an inexorable journey back to Rome.
Try journey home series , or reason to believe.
You are in for a few surprises, listen to those who left where you are - they will argue from your present perspective.

The early church matters for finding the truth.





I've done my research, so please don't assume I don't know anything about the Catholic Church and the Papacy. (As well as all the doctrines that were made official over time, in regard to Mary for example). You say that Catholic doctrine has not changed, that everything that was accepted now was always accepted, but that is not true.

In any case, Papal hierarchy is quite obviously in shambles. When you look at the history it is nothing but a long line of corruption, sexual immorality and greed, as well as forged documents. I cannot believe that God chose people to become Pope through murder and greed and other immoral means. Just reading some of the statements various Popes made while they were Pope should be enough to convince anyone that the saying is true: "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely."

Also, the Bible is clear, Christ's kingdom is not of this world. (John 18:36) And yet Pope after Pope did in fact seek after worldly wealth, honour and power, in order to build up an earthly kingdom. Popes had power over earthly monarchs as well, and most disgustingly, made merchandise of people by selling them bogus "tickets" to Heaven. (Out of Purgatory)

In contrast to the claim the Papacy makes, here is what the Bible says it should be like among Christians:

"But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.

But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;

And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:

Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many."
- Matthew 20:25-28

"But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.

But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:

And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.

For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many."
- Mark 10:42-45


"And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest.

And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.


But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve." - Luke 22:24-26


"But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.

And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted."
- Matthew 23:8-12


It's worth noting, that Peter, who the Catholic Church claims was the first Pope, was present when Jesus spoke the words recorded in these verses. Therefore, he would have understood that such a position was forbidden by Christ Himself. And indeed, we have no Scriptural record of Peter ever claiming such a title for Himself, nor being given one by anyone else.

There was a time, years ago, that I considered being Catholic, but all that I have learned over the years regarding the very foundations of the Catholic Church and it's "Tradition" has made that impossible.

Everyone needs to look into all of it for themselves, however. I realize that not even sharing Scripture with people will convince them that there are a lot of issues (very important ones) in regard to what the Catholic Church teaches.

God bless.
 
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amariselle

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You should distinguish between failings of popes who are human and the scriptural office of papacy. If Luther had not had a hissy fit, and hung around a while longer he would have found the pope speak out against paid indulgencies, at the next council on,y a few years on which was the main gripe of his theses. The problem is the wheels of RCC turn but slowly so Luther's " I demand it now" was never realistic. What few realise is Luther regretted in later life, the monster he created, and wished he could go back. But the moving finger writes,

You trot out all the old easily debunked myths, e.g. The easily refuted hyperbole " Call no man father " so you have not studied Catholicism, just anti Catholicism. The two bear little relation.

You clearly had not studied the origins of calling mother of Davidic king the queen, before declare it pagan!

All I can say is study it. Give it a chance, And whatever you now call home in the church, read the testimony of many pastors and theologians of that denomination whose study of early church led them on an inexorable journey back to Rome.
Try journey home series , or reason to believe.
You are in for a few surprises, listen to those who left where you are - they will argue from your present perspective.

The early church matters for finding the truth.

Not that Luther got everything right, but he hardly had a "hissy fit."

Also, you make the mistake of assuming I have only studied "anti-Catholic" history and literature, I have not. Most of what I object to has come from Catholic sources and also my own attendance at quite a number of Catholic Masses.

I guess it's just easier to accuse someone of ignorance Simply because they disagree. After all, no one who truly understands Catholicism could possibly disagree with it, right?

And yet, many have, and, in times past, they even died for their disagreement.

As I said, I continue to study, but I have found no reason to agree with the core tenants of Catholicism in all the years I've learned about it so far.
 
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amariselle

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You have no point. The fact that popes are sinners like the rest of us changes nothing.

You are still missing what I actually said in that post.

Again, not surprising, as you wrote me off quite awhile ago simply because I do not agree with Catholicism. The personal insults said it all.
 
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amariselle

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You just want to be pope yourself as do any protestant...

Yeah, not even close. I don't believe the office of Pope or the Papal hierarchy is in any way Biblical, (history is simply a confirmation of that fact). As such, I want nothing to do with it. I am not about to come under the spiritual authority of any man or woman, no matter who they may be. The Bible says we are all "bretheren." I'll stick with that.
 
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Mountainmike

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If you had studied Catholicism , you would not trot out the easily refuted myths... like raising the hyperbole " call no man father" as if it had any relevance to the veracity of Catholicism. I find it hard to take anyone seriously who uses such specious criticism.

If you have been to masses you will know that there is far more scripture in the mass by far , than any bible bashing denomination. It is wall to wall scriptural reference. And if you studied the early church and early Eucharist you would note the similarity even in liturgy. And certainly it holds in the same reverence the real presence of our Lord in the sacrament, just as we note in the very first writings of disciples of the apostles, taught by them. So how do you claim it has strayed?


Not that Luther got everything right, but he hardly had a "hissy fit."

Also, you make the mistake of assuming I have only studied "anti-Catholic" history and literature, I have not. Most of what I object to has come from Catholic sources and also my own attendance at quite a number of Catholic Masses.

I guess it's just easier to accuse someone of ignorance Simply because they disagree. After all, no one who truly understands Catholicism could possibly disagree with it, right?

And yet, many have, and, in times past, they even died for their disagreement.

As I said, I continue to study, but I have found no reason to agree with the core tenants of Catholicism in all the years I've learned about it so far.
 
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