Jesus and nonviolence

SteveIndy

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this is swiftly refuted by Christ own words in matthew 5:17-20.

the sermon on the mount didn't do away with OT law. this would be an improper dispensational view. it established it just as Paul reiterated in romans 3:31. it actually amplified what the law said. the law to love your enemies isn't as new as you may believe(exodus 23:4-5). what you would need to do is find where in scripture acts of self-defense and just wars which were established in the OT have been abrogated. there are parts of OT law that have indeed been abrogated(ie dietary laws, and feast laws).

what you're saying sounds nice...it's just not quite biblical.

Your words need to be weighed against everything which Christ and His Apostles said to the contrary.

We know that Christ does not speak out of both sides of His mouth so all the references you give must be weighed against all the other Scriptures that have been written for our understanding. There are not two correct ways to understand this issue, only one. First we need to look at Jesus’ words on the subject.

Luke 16:16 “The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”

Matthew 5, As previously mentioned Christ, from His own mouth, said six times, “You have it heard it said…but I say….” Now, where did He hear it said? The Old testament law, of course. Then He adds, “But I say,” What did He mean by those words. We can find out by looking at other places. What we are going to find is that He was replacing those words with other words that have to do with the intent of the heart instead of mere words of legislation.

Hebrews 1:1-2 “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;”

Hebrews 8:7-8 “For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant….”

Hebrews 9:15-17 “And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.”

To abrogate is not necessarily to completely do away with it, can mean to revoke or to set aside and not to wipe out from total existence. The O.T. is a shadow of which the N.T. is the substance. In the N.T. we see where this new Covenant is referred to as “The law of love,” the Royal law,” and the “Perfect law of liberty.” These references are to the New Covenant which is the substance of what was hidden inside of the Old Covenant just as real person is not revealed by the shadow he cast on the wall. When all we see is the shadow we cannot understand the substance until the person comes out of the shadows. The shadow is so inferior to the rear person that we can see that the shadow nowhere resembles the real person except as an empty outline that has its reality in something totally different.

You are right, the moral law of the ten commandments are still valid today and we see, in the life of Christ, how we can fulfill these dictates without falling back under the condemnation of the O.T. laws.

When we look at the O.T. for instructions on how to conduct ourselves as Christians we are trying to dress-up a shadow to resemble something our minds can comprehend, and we will always fail just as those in the O.T. failed to see the days of Christ’s fulfillment of those laws in practice. Christ modeled for us how to fulfill the law and then said “Follow Me.”

The law of loving your enemies is, as you say, taught in the O.T. so the old law is good if we can see past the shadow to the substance. Moses gave the law and in many things permitted the compromise because of the weakness of the peoples flesh and lack of understanding. With the veil being removed in Christ and His followers now able to see the Truth expanded and made visible to their blinded hearts they discovered that the O.T. did, in fact, teach the very things Jesus was teaching and now made perfect sense.

Once your heart is enlightened then you too will see how perfectly the mysterious puzzle all fits together. Christ did fulfill the law, that was necessary, and with His death His New Last Will and Testament became the Testament of any eternal value. Moses said to listen to Jesus. If we try and plead the Old last will and Testament before the Great Judge we will not have a leg to stand on, it is longer valid.
 
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Halbhh

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No doubt you see your scriptures as portraying Jesus as non-violent. On the other hand, I do see Jesus teaching that he will employ violence.

If you would be so generous as to allow me to address any such, one at a time, or two, I would be happy to do so, and even though it may be hard to imagine, I'm very open to learning something new that I didn't think, so it's a true discussion if you are truly discussing also.

One more thing that could be helpful to know is that I don't need Christ to be nonviolent in all cases, because He is literally one with God, of the same divine nature, and has authority to Judge All Mankind, and has power to destroy the armies of the enemy (lucifer) in the end time, literally, and as I understand will do so, and that will presumably qualify as a violence. Instead I'm referring to His teaching and example to us as humans during the time He took full human form in a mortal body here.
 
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ananda

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If you would be so generous as to allow me to address any such, one at a time, or two, I would be happy to do so, and even though it may be hard to imagine, I'm very open to learning something new that I didn't think, so it's a true discussion if you are truly discussing also.

One more thing that could be helpful to know is that I don't need Christ to be nonviolent in all cases, because He is literally one with God, of the same divine nature, and has authority to Judge All Mankind, and has power to destroy the armies of the enemy (lucifer) in the end time, literally, and as I understand will do so, and that will presumably qualify as a violence. Instead I'm referring to His teaching and example to us as humans during the time He took full human form in a mortal body here.
What you call "justice", I call "violence" ... however, I do agree that he taught some non-violent teachings for humans, but that was part of my original concern: it cannot be said that he practices what he preaches that others should do.
 
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S.O.J.I.A.

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Actually, yeah... we're not supposed to do that either. 1 Corinthians 6:1-8...

"If any of you has a dispute with another, do you dare to take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the Lord’s people? Or do you not know that the Lord’s people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, do you ask for a ruling from those whose way of life is scorned in the church? I say this to shame you. Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers? But instead, one brother takes another to court—and this in front of unbelievers!

"The very fact that you have lawsuits among you means you have been completely defeated already. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be cheated? Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers and sisters."

"dispute amongst one another" is the key statement here. believers are not to bring up lawsuits against other believers. this doesn't apply to those outside the church.

similar to OT law on charging interest(Deuteronomy 23:19-20).
 
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S.O.J.I.A.

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If you reread the passage in Matthew 5 in context you will understand exactly why Jesus begins his sermon by stating that the law is the law, and it does not go away. He says this because he is telling us that HE is the law now, so what HE says goes. "“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." Which is why directly after saying this He begins to tell us of His new commands for us.

this doesn't follow in light of the rest of what Jesus says in verse 17-20. heaven and earth didn't pass away when Jesus died and rose again. the second coming of Christ has not happened yet therefore all has not been fulfilled. heaven and earth will indeed pass away when Christ returns. until that time, not one jot or stroke of the pen will be lost.

unless you can show an explicit or implicit prohibition of self defense in the NT you don't have an argument.
 
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S.O.J.I.A.

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Your words need to be weighed against everything which Christ and His Apostles said to the contrary.

We know that Christ does not speak out of both sides of His mouth so all the references you give must be weighed against all the other Scriptures that have been written for our understanding. There are not two correct ways to understand this issue, only one. First we need to look at Jesus’ words on the subject.

Luke 16:16 “The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”

Matthew 5, As previously mentioned Christ, from His own mouth, said six times, “You have it heard it said…but I say….” Now, where did He hear it said? The Old testament law, of course. Then He adds, “But I say,” What did He mean by those words. We can find out by looking at other places. What we are going to find is that He was replacing those words with other words that have to do with the intent of the heart instead of mere words of legislation.

Hebrews 1:1-2 “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;”

Hebrews 8:7-8 “For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant….”

Hebrews 9:15-17 “And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.”

To abrogate is not necessarily to completely do away with it, can mean to revoke or to set aside and not to wipe out from total existence. The O.T. is a shadow of which the N.T. is the substance. In the N.T. we see where this new Covenant is referred to as “The law of love,” the Royal law,” and the “Perfect law of liberty.” These references are to the New Covenant which is the substance of what was hidden inside of the Old Covenant just as real person is not revealed by the shadow he cast on the wall. When all we see is the shadow we cannot understand the substance until the person comes out of the shadows. The shadow is so inferior to the rear person that we can see that the shadow nowhere resembles the real person except as an empty outline that has its reality in something totally different.

You are right, the moral law of the ten commandments are still valid today and we see, in the life of Christ, how we can fulfill these dictates without falling back under the condemnation of the O.T. laws.

When we look at the O.T. for instructions on how to conduct ourselves as Christians we are trying to dress-up a shadow to resemble something our minds can comprehend, and we will always fail just as those in the O.T. failed to see the days of Christ’s fulfillment of those laws in practice. Christ modeled for us how to fulfill the law and then said “Follow Me.”

The law of loving your enemies is, as you say, taught in the O.T. so the old law is good if we can see past the shadow to the substance. Moses gave the law and in many things permitted the compromise because of the weakness of the peoples flesh and lack of understanding. With the veil being removed in Christ and His followers now able to see the Truth expanded and made visible to their blinded hearts they discovered that the O.T. did, in fact, teach the very things Jesus was teaching and now made perfect sense.

Once your heart is enlightened then you too will see how perfectly the mysterious puzzle all fits together. Christ did fulfill the law, that was necessary, and with His death His New Last Will and Testament became the Testament of any eternal value. Moses said to listen to Jesus. If we try and plead the Old last will and Testament before the Great Judge we will not have a leg to stand on, it is longer valid.

and the very next verse after luke 16:16 says "and it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away before one jot of the law fails"

the entire book of Hebrews is about Christ being our final sacrifice for sins and our eternal high priest. the OT sacrificial system was replaced by Christ being the spotless lamb.

these don't address the question though. where is the prohibition? if you're going to say that the entirety of the OT laws have been made void by Christ's death and resurrection then you must also include the 10 commandments and the rest of the moral law. you agree with me that this isn't so, so on what basis have you made the distinction?
 
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SteveIndy

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and the very next verse after luke 16:16 says "and it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away before one jot of the law fails"

the entire book of Hebrews is about Christ being our final sacrifice for sins and our eternal high priest. the OT sacrificial system was replaced by Christ being the spotless lamb.

these don't address the question though. where is the prohibition? if you're going to say that the entirety of the OT laws have been made void by Christ's death and resurrection then you must also include the 10 commandments and the rest of the moral law. you agree with me that this isn't so, so on what basis have you made the distinction?

I have given you enough information, what more can be said. Love your enemy, turn the other cheek, I came not to destroy men's lives but to save them, the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, if my kingdom was of this world then would my servants fight, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc. oh! and if your enemy hungers feed him.
 
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Halbhh

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What you call "justice", I call "violence" ... however, I do agree that he taught some non-violent teachings for humans, but that was part of my original concern: it cannot be said that he practices what he preaches that others should do.

Well, do you think that you'd like to live forever with people that specifically are not loving, do not love you?
 
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S.O.J.I.A.

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I have given you enough information, what more can be said. Love your enemy, turn the other cheek, I came not to destroy men's lives but to save them, the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, if my kingdom was of this world then would my servants fight, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc. oh! and if your enemy hungers feed him.

And I can do all these things consistently while protecting those I love from those who would harm them.
 
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Halbhh

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How do you know?

:) When you learn from the Teacher, from Christ Jesus, you will find the way towards heaven. And when you have in time begun to do as He said is the most central thing, the "greatest commandment", then you will find out something so wonderful, it will make you want to continue without end in that. But that's not the only beautifully wonderful and life changing good thing that you could experience, in time, I found out.
 
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ananda

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:) When you learn from the Teacher, from Christ Jesus, you will find the way towards heaven. And when you have in time begun to do as He said is the most central thing, the "greatest commandment", then you will find out something so wonderful, it will make you want to continue without end in that. But that's not the only beautifully wonderful and life changing good thing that you could experience, in time, I found out.
Good luck and all the best to you in your journey!
 
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