Perhaps today! The imminent return of Jesus Christ for His Church!

Quasar92

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I really don't understand why there's such an a debate over the word apostasía.

If it turns out the meaning is the rapture, good. If it turns out it means a falling away from the faith, also good, because it doesn't actually negate the rapture event. One can't actually take away from that 'no rapture' without adding assumptions to the text as they would be separate events.


Right on! Those who believe themselves qualified to teach eschatology would have us believe the gaff made to 2 Thess.2:3 in the 17th century, in our Bibles over the past 4 centuries, should accept and continue the gaff. Instead of the proper original historical translation of what Paul wrote, accepted and used in its origin for 17 centuries, before the gaff, in 1611 A.D. As thoroughly described in my post #117.


The theme for the entire passage of 2 Thess.2:1-8, is the very first verse, that says, [paraphrased] "About our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering unto Him..." Which is a direct reference to 1 Thess.4:17. Which states [paraphrased] "After that, we who are still alive and left will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them [those who previously died in Christ] to meet the Lord in the sky."

The bottom line is the fact that 1 Thess.4:13-18 and 2 Thess.2:1-8 are the teachings of Paul for the pre-trib rapture of the Church, those who fancy themselves as eschatology teachers try to alter the meaning of the word Paul used in 2 Thess. 2:3, of DEPARTURE, from the Greek word :apostasia," to APOSTASY. But when challenged to show where APOSTASY fits the context in any part of those two passages of Scripture, they fail to produce a shred of evidence! Case closed!


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What did Irenaeus say about “apostasy” as used in 2 Thessalonians

Irenaeus, Against Heresies Book V Chapter25 section1

1 And not only by the particulars already mentioned, but also by means of the events which shall occur in the time of Antichrist is it shown that he, being an apostate and a robber, is anxious to be adored as God; and that, although a mere slave, he wishes himself to be proclaimed as a king. For he (Antichrist) being endued with all the power of the devil, shall come, not as a righteous king, nor as a legitimate king, [i.e., one] in subjection to God, but an impious, unjust, and lawless one; as an apostate, iniquitous and murderous; as a robber, concentrating in himself [all] satanic apostasy, and setting aside idols to persuade [men] that he himself is God, raising up himself as the only idol, having in himself the multifarious errors of the other idols. This he does, in order that they who do [now] worship the devil by means of many abominations, may serve himself by this one idol, of whom the apostle thus speaks in the second Epistle to the Thessalonians: "Unless there shall come a failing away first, and the man of sin shall be revealed, the son of perdition, who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself as if he were God." The apostle therefore clearly points out his apostasy, and that he is lifted up above all that is called God, or that is worshipped-that is, above every idol-for these are indeed so called by men, but are not [really] gods; and that he will endeavour in a tyrannical manner to set himself forth as God.

2. Moreover, he (the apostle) has also pointed out this which I have shown in many ways, that the temple in Jerusalem was made by the direction of the true God. For the apostle himself, speaking in his own person, distinctly called it the temple of God. Now I have shown in the third book, that no one is termed God by the apostles when speaking for themselves, except Him who truly is God, the Father of our Lord, by whose directions the temple which is at Jerusalem was constructed for those purposes which I have already mentioned; in which [temple] the enemy shall sit, endeavouring to show himself as Christ, as the Lord also declares: "But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, which has been spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him that readeth understand), then let those who are in Judea flee into the mountains; and he who is upon the house-top, let him not come down to take anything out of his house: for there shall then be great hardship, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall be."

3. Daniel too, looking forward to the end of the last kingdom, i.e., the ten last kings, amongst whom the kingdom of those men shall be partitioned, and upon whom the son of perdition shall come, declares that ten horns shall spring from the beast, and that another little horn shall arise in the midst of them, and that three of the former shall be rooted up before his face. He says: "And, behold, eyes were in [392-393] this horn as the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things, and his look was more stout than his fellows. I was looking, and this horn made war against the saints, and prevailed against them, until the Ancient of days came and gave judgment to the saints of the most high God, and the time came, and the saints obtained the kingdom." Then, further on, in the interpretation of the vision, there was said to him: "The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall excel all other kingdoms, and devour the whole earth, and tread it down, and cut it in pieces. And its ten horns are ten kings which shall arise; and after them shall arise another, who shall surpass in evil deeds all that were before him, and shall overthrow three kings; and he shall speak words against the most high God, and wear out the saints of the most high God, and shall purpose to change times and laws; and [everything] shall be given into his hand until a time of times and a half time," that is, for three years and six months, during which time, when he comes, he shall reign over the earth. Of whom also the Apostle Paul again, speaking in the second [Epistle] to the Thessalonians, and at the same time proclaiming the cause of his advent, thus says: "And then shall the wicked one be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus shall slay with the spirit of His mouth, and destroy by the presence of His coming; whose coming [i.e., the wicked one's] is after the working of Satan, in all power, and signs, and portents of lies, and with all deceivableness of wickedness for those who perish; because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And therefore God will send them the working of error, that they may believe a lie; that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but gave consent to iniquity,"

4. The Lord also spoke as follows to those who did not believe in Him: "I have come in my Father's name, and ye have not received Me: when another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive," calling Antichrist "the other," because he is alienated from the Lord. This is also the unjust judge, whom the Lord mentioned as one "who feared not God, neither regarded man," to whom the widow fled in her forgetfulness of God,-that is, the earthly Jerusalem,-to be avenged of her adversary. Which also he shall do in the time of his kingdom: he shall remove his kingdom into that [city], and shall sit in the temple of God, leading astray those who worship him, as if he were Christ. To this purpose Daniel says again: "And he shall desolate the holy place; and sin has been given for a sacrifice, and righteousness been cast away in the earth, and he has been active (fecit), and gone on prosperously." And the angel Gabriel, when explaining his vision, states with regard to this person: "And towards the end of their kingdom a king of a most fierce countenance shall arise, one understanding [dark] questions, and exceedingly powerful, full of wonders; and he shall corrupt, direct, influence (faciet), and put strong men down, the holy people likewise; and his yoke shall be directed as a wreath [round their neck]; deceit shall be in his hand, and he shall be lifted up in his heart: he shall also ruin many by deceit, and lead many to perdition, bruising them in his hand like eggs." And then he points out the time that his tyranny shall last, during which the saints shall be put to flight, they who offer a pure sacrifice unto God: "And in the midst of the week," he says, "the sacrifice and the libation shall be taken away, and the abomination of desolation [shall be brought] into the temple: even unto the consummation of the time shall the desolation be complete." Now three years and six months constitute the half-week.

5. From all these passages are revealed to us, not merely the particulars of the apostasy, and [the doings] of him who concentrates in himself every satanic error, but also, that there is one and the same God the Father, who was declared by the prophets, but made manifest by Christ. For if what Daniel prophesied concerning the end has been confirmed by the Lord, when He said, "When ye shall see the abomination of desolation, which has been spoken of by Daniel the prophet" (and the angel Gabriel gave the interpretation of the visions to Daniel, and he is the archangel of the Creator (Demiurgi), who also proclaimed to Mary the visible coining and the incarnation of Christ), then one and the same God is most manifestly pointed out, who sent the prophets, and made promise of the Son, and called us into His knowledge.



Chapter 28 Section 2

2. And for this reason the apostle says: "Because they received not the love of God, that they might be saved, therefore God shall also send them the operation of error, that they may believe a lie, that they all may be judged who have not believed the truth, but consented to unrighteousness." For when he (Antichrist) is come, and of his own accord concentrates in his own person the apostasy, and accomplishes whatever he shall do according to his own will and choice, sitting also in the temple of God, so that his dupes may adore him as the Christ; wherefore also shall he deservedly "be cast into the lake of fire: " [this will happen according to divine appointment], God by His prescience foreseeing all this, and at the proper time sending such a man, "that they may believe a lie, that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but consented to unrighteousness;" whose coming John has thus described in the Apocalypse: "And the beast which I had seen was like unto a leopard, and his feet as of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion; and the dragon conferred his own power upon him, and his throne, and great might. And one of his heads was as it were slain unto death; and his deadly wound was healed, and all the world wondered after the beast. And they worshipped the dragon because he gave power to the beast; and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto this beast, and who is able to make war with him? And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things, and blasphemy and power was given to him during forty and two months. And he opened his mouth for blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. And power was given him over every tribe, and people, and tongue, and nation. And all who dwell upon the earth worshipped him, [every one] whose name was not written in the book of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If any one have ears, let him hear. If any one shall lead into captivity, he shall go into captivity. If any shall slay with the sword, he must be slain with the sword. Here is the endurance and the faith of the saints." After this he likewise describes his armour-bearer, whom he also terms a false prophet: "He spake as a dragon, and exercised all the power of the first beast in his sight, and caused the earth, and those that dwell therein, to adore the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. And he shall perform great wonders, so that he can even cause fire to descend from heaven upon the earth in the sight of men, and he shall lead the inhabitants of the earth astray." Let no one imagine that he performs these wonders by divine power, but [402-403] by the working of magic. And we must not be surprised if, since the demons and apostate spirits are at his service, he through their means performs wonders, by which he leads the inhabitants of the earth astray. John says further: "And he shall order an image of the beast to be made, and he shall give breath to the image, so that the image shall speak; and he shall cause those to be slain who will not adore it." He says also: "And he will cause a mark [to be put] in the forehead and in the fight hand, that no one may be able to buy or sell, unless he who has the mark of the name of the beast or the number of his name; and the number is six hundred and sixty-six," that is, six times a hundred, six times ten, and six units. [He gives this] as a summing up of the whole of that apostasy which has taken place during six thousand years.



It is quite clear that Irenaeus did not hold to the teachings of Dr. Thomas Ice on the meaning of the word “apostasy”.

I makes far more sense to consider the understanding of someone who was one generation removed from the men who wrote our scriptures than to take seriously the teachings of Mr. Ice who has an agenda.


FYI, 2 Thess.2:3a is about the "apostasia," departure/rapture, of the CHURCH. The man of lawlessness, Antichrist, is then revealed in 3b; "and then the man of lawlessness will be revealed." The theme of the passage is the departure/rapture of the Church, not the Antichrist.

Confirmed in verse 7 where the restrainer will continue to restrain until HE [the one body of Christ, His Church] is taken out of the way.


Quasar92
 
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FYI, 2 Thess.2:3a is about the "apostasia," departure/rapture, of the CHURCH. The man of lawlessness, Antichrist, is then revealed in 3b; "and then the man of lawlessness will be revealed." The theme of the passage is the departure/rapture of the Church, not the Antichrist.

Confirmed in verse 7 where the restrainer will continue to restrain until HE [the one body of Christ, His Church] is taken out of the way.


Quasar92

More correctly the theme of verse 3 is that the “falling away” and revealing of the man of sin, comes before "that day". It is your opinion and that of Mr. Ice that falling away means rapture of the church.


It is also your opinion and that of Mr. Ice that the church is the he that is taken out of the way.


You nor he have offered a credible case it is so. Simply declaring it to be truth is not truth.
 
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SeventyOne

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Correct it does not negate a rapture event, but the whole debate of this word has to do with the timing of that event. The departure to heaven definition is required to negate the time laid out in 2 Thessalonians 2:3. If the meaning is “falling away” from the faith, which I believe the evidence clearly shows is the correct interpretation, the catching up is after the man of sin is revealed.

It doesn't do anything for the timing debate either. That's adding unnecessary assumptions in there.

The question was pertaining to the gathering together to the Lord, because their fear was they were already in the Day of the Lord. Paul was reassuring them the Day of the Lord would't happen until the falling away (rapture or otherwise) takes place. Regardless of which one it is, the implication is they don't have to be concerned they've missed the gathering prior to the Day of the Lord.

If they had been anticipating their gathering after the Day of the Lord, then they would have been happy to be in that day because they would know the gathering is near.
 
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Quasar92

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More correctly the theme of verse 3 is that the “falling away” and revealing of the man of sin, comes before "that day". It is your opinion and that of Mr. Ice that falling away means rapture of the church.


It is also your opinion and that of Mr. Ice that the church is the he that is taken out of the way.


You nor he have offered a credible case it is so. Simply declaring it to be truth is not truth.


Where did you obtain your qualifications to teach the Bible and to rebuke those who do have them?

I have posted many times over at this site, proof of the Church being taken to as well as in heaven.

Review 1 Thess.4:17; Jn.14:1-2 and 28, 2 Thess.2:3 and 7, Rev.19:7-8. To say nothing of the Church returning with Jesus from the marriage in heaven, WITH HIM when He returns to the earth in His Second Coming, in verse 14. You have no argument!


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Where did you obtain your qualifications to teach the Bible and to rebuke those who do have them?

I have posted many times over at this site, proof of the Church being taken to as well as in heaven.

Review 1 Thess.4:17; Jn.14:1-2 and 28, 2 Thess.2:3 and 7, Rev.19:7-8. To say nothing of the Church returning with Jesus from the marriage in heaven, WITH HIM when He returns to the earth in His Second Coming, in verse 14. You have no argument!


Quasar92


Quasar92 said:

Where did you obtain your qualifications to teach the Bible and to rebuke those who do have them?

I am not rebuking you I am questioning your interpretation of passages dealing with the coming of Christ. Your credentials and training do not make you infallible, the final word or above being questioned.

I have posted many times over at this site, proof of the Church being taken to as well as in heaven.

I disagree, you might interpret certain passages that way but nothing in the text says what you claim. Sorry for the inconvenience but you do not get a pass because you have a couple of degrees. What you say on this open forum is subject to scrutiny just as everything I write is.

Review 1 Thess.4:17; Jn.14:1-2 and 28, 2 Thess.2:3 and 7, Rev.19:7-8. To say nothing of the Church returning with Jesus from the marriage in heaven, WITH HIM when He returns to the earth in His Second Coming, in verse 14. You have no argument!

All of that has been addressed and most times you just ignore what people say referring them to a previous post that just restates your position or just assumes you are right and we must just accept it move on.


That’s not the way a debate forum works!


There is no trip to heaven for a pre-trib raptured church anywhere in scripture.
 
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Except in Isaiah 26:19-21.

Isaiah 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Do you really see a trip to heaven for the raptured church in this passage?

Verse 19 we do have a resurrection.

Verse 20 we have the word chambers, is that the only tie you see to heaven? Can you show any other scene from heaven in scripture where anyone hides in a chamber behind a closed door?

Verse 21 I see the Lord coming out of heaven to earth to punish the wicked , no trip back to heaven here. When He comes He stays and sets up His kingdom on this earth.

There is no trip to heaven for the church laid out in this passage. The new Jerusalem Being prepared for us He brings to this earth.

Sorry my friend there are no closed door hiding places in heaven. Do you have another passage ?
 
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SeventyOne

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If you call Isaiah 26:19-21 a clear pre-trib rapture proof text then that fully explains why there is so much disagreement on this issue.

There is no mention of going back to heaven we have no mention in any other Bible text of anyone hiding out behind closed doors in heaven. If you call my reasons given nonsense what shall I call your unwillingness to actually discuss the passage? Shall we all just accept your declaration and move on to the next topic?

Would you say that maybe the argument put forth on this thread about the word “apostasia” is just trying to “explain it away” one of the passages that clearly refutes this pre-trb rapture notion?

For correlation, Paul tells us that when the dead rise at the rapture, we which are alive and remain will also be with Him forever. Isaiah 26 shows this timing to be with Him prior to the pouring out of His wrath upon the earth. Since He doesn't actually set foot upon the earth again until after His wrath has begun pouring out, then our being with Him is prior to the wrath and before He comes back on earth.

Jesus tells us that the place He's preparing for us is in His Father's house and He will come back to take us where He is, then we are told that not only is the Father in heaven, but also Jesus went to heaven after the ascension. He is in heaven, and we are with Him before His wrath comes down on the earth, and the wrath begins prior to His second coming. Pre-trib is true and our time in heaven will occur.
 
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keras

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People believe in a ‘rapture to heaven’.
Where does this idea come from? It isn’t stated anywhere in the Bible and those who promote it must use inferences and assumptions to make verses fit their belief.
But when Jesus Himself tells us that such an idea is impossible, then we know it is just a fable, a false theory, like Paul says; will be prevalent in the latter days. 2 Timothy 4:3-4

Jesus said:

John 3:13 No one has gone up to heaven, except the One who came down from there…

John 7:33-34…I am going away to Him who sent Me and where I go, you cannot come.

John 8:21-23 Again He said: Where I go, you cannot come. You belong to this world below, I to the world above….

John 17:15 I do not pray that You take My people out of this world, but to keep them from the evil one.

Revelation 5:10 You have made them priests for our God and they shall reign on earth.

Evidence enough that people never go to heaven. Only their souls, after death, go back to the One who made them.
The whole theory of a rapture to heaven contradicts what we are told that the Lord will do for His people; protection during the terrible times ahead. And for those who do stand firm in their faith, who call upon His Name when disaster strikes, there is the promise of tremendous blessings, spiritual and physical to every faithful Christian.
 
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SeventyOne

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John 3:13 No one has gone up to heaven, except the One who came down from there…

John 7:33-34…I am going away to Him who sent Me and where I go, you cannot come.

John 8:21-23 Again He said: Where I go, you cannot come. You belong to this world below, I to the world above….

The way wasn't made open until the sacrifice had been made. All these quotes were pre-sacrifice.


John 17:15 I do not pray that You take My people out of this world, but to keep them from the evil one.

This actually negates your point on the previous three verses. The way for them to be taken out of the world was getting ready to open up, so much so, He actually had to pray to the Father that very thing did not take place.

As a result, they weren't taken out of the world, they stayed right here until they died. It's the same for the rest of us. We weren't taken immediately after we were saved, even though our citizenship is now IN heaven.

Php 3:20-1 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.

Do you get that? We are citizens of heaven, not earth. That's where a believers citizenship resides, and we await Jesus, who is there, to transform our bodies in the rapture. If I were to tell you I was a citizen of a country I've never visited, will never visit, and never had any friends or relatives ever visit or live there, you would likely think I'm a little soft in the head, because that's not how citizenship works.


Revelation 5:10 You have made them priests for our God and they shall reign on earth.

Yup, after the Lord returns. The rapture is before this. Not only does Isaiah 26 give us the timing when those in the rapture go to heaven, those who die in the Tribulation are seen in heaven.
 
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rockytopva

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People believe in a ‘rapture to heaven’.
Where does this idea come from? It isn’t stated anywhere in the Bible and those who promote it must use inferences and assumptions to make verses fit their belief.
But when Jesus Himself tells us that such an idea is impossible, then we know it is just a fable, a false theory, like Paul says; will be prevalent in the latter days. 2 Timothy 4:3-4

Jesus said:

John 3:13 No one has gone up to heaven, except the One who came down from there…

John 7:33-34…I am going away to Him who sent Me and where I go, you cannot come.

John 8:21-23 Again He said: Where I go, you cannot come. You belong to this world below, I to the world above….

John 17:15 I do not pray that You take My people out of this world, but to keep them from the evil one.

Revelation 5:10 You have made them priests for our God and they shall reign on earth.

Evidence enough that people never go to heaven. Only their souls, after death, go back to the One who made them.
The whole theory of a rapture to heaven contradicts what we are told that the Lord will do for His people; protection during the terrible times ahead. And for those who do stand firm in their faith, who call upon His Name when disaster strikes, there is the promise of tremendous blessings, spiritual and physical to every faithful Christian.

Rapture is not in the Bible... But caught up is!
And caught up is not to return!

We will be caught up with Christ in the air...
We will return with Christ after tribulation to reign with him 1,000 years.
 
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BABerean2

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Rapture is not in the Bible... But caught up is!
And caught up is not to return!

We will be caught up with Christ in the air...
We will return with Christ after tribulation to reign with him 1,000 years.

Please show us the trip back to heaven in 1 Thessalonians chapters 4 and 5.

.
 
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rockytopva

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Please show us the trip back to heaven in 1 Thessalonians chapters 4 and 5.

.

You would mean the trip back to earth after we were caught up in heaven to be with the Lord. That would be in Revelation.
 
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BABerean2

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You would mean the trip back to earth after we were caught up in heaven to be with the Lord. That would be in Revelation.

No. I mean the trip back to the Father's House in heaven after the event at the end of 1 Thessalonians chapter 4.

.
 
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For correlation, Paul tells us that when the dead rise at the rapture, we which are alive and remain will also be with Him forever. Isaiah 26 shows this timing to be with Him prior to the pouring out of His wrath upon the earth. Since He doesn't actually set foot upon the earth again until after His wrath has begun pouring out, then our being with Him is prior to the wrath and before He comes back on earth.

Jesus tells us that the place He's preparing for us is in His Father's house and He will come back to take us where He is, then we are told that not only is the Father in heaven, but also Jesus went to heaven after the ascension. He is in heaven, and we are with Him before His wrath comes down on the earth, and the wrath begins prior to His second coming. Pre-trib is true and our time in heaven will occur.

SeventyOne said:

For correlation, Paul tells us that when the dead rise at the rapture, we which are alive and remain will also be with Him forever.

Amen, but forever does not include a trip back to heaven for 7 years. It is not in the text of 1 Thessalonians 4. You have assumed it is there.

Isaiah 26 shows this timing to be with Him prior to the pouring out of His wrath upon the earth.

I have stated many times on this forum I do not believe the church will endure the wrath of God.

Since He doesn't actually set foot upon the earth again until after His wrath has begun pouring out, then our being with Him is prior to the wrath and before He comes back on earth.

Tell me, since you do not require mention of actually going back to heaven in 2 Thessalonians 4or John 14, how it that you do require mention of His feet touching down in a passage for that to be the case? No two coming of the Lord passages are identical yet there is only one more coming of the Lord on our future.

Jesus tells us that the place He's preparing for us is in His Father's house and He will come back to take us where He is, then we are told that not only is the Father in heaven, but also Jesus went to heaven after the ascension.

Your above statement is full of assumptions; let me point out a few.


I am right now at my house and for the sake of this point you are at yours. I will drive from my house to yours and pick you up when you get in my car you are with me. You can assume we are going back to my house but I think we should board a plane and go to Jerusalem. You have been with me where I am ever since I picked you up and we still did not go back to my house.


Yes Jesus went to heaven after the ascension and He will come again and receive us. When He made the statement He was on this earth and when He comes He will be on this earth and you still cannot show from John 14 where He says we go back to heaven so we can hide out in temporary housing behind closed doors for 7 years. That is not in the text. Why do you require that His feet touching the ground is required in other passages and do not require a mention of going to heave where there is not one.


One point left out of or put into a passage is not basis for making an argument something is or is not true.


1 Corinthians 15: 51-52 does not mention the Lord, angels, a shout, clouds or rising to the air. Which of those do you believe are not involved?

He is in heaven, and we are with Him before His wrath comes down on the earth, and the wrath begins prior to His second coming. Pre-trib is true and our time in heaven will occur.

Jesus has all power I believe He can come gather us deal with the wicked of this earth in one trip with breaking a sweat.


Tell me a couple of things, in Zechariah doe it tell us Jesus’s feet touch ground before or after He fights against the nations and does it even say His feet touch the ground in Revelation 19?

 
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rockytopva

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Rapture is not in the Bible... But caught up is!
And caught up is not to return!

We will be caught up with Christ in the air...
We will return with Christ after tribulation to reign with him 1,000 years.

If we are not raptured away pre-trib... How are we going to return with Christ to reign with him 1,000 years???

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. - Revelation 19
 
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keras

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If we are not raptured away pre-trib... How are we going to return with Christ to reign with him 1,000 years???
Those are the ARMIES of heaven who accompany Jesus; angel beings, NOT humans!
 
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