Eternal Security and Apostasy

shakewell · Jul 27, 2017

P92 said:
Keeping Psalm 119:160 in mind, is it not necessary to consider all Scripture that pertains to a particular topic (apostasy in this case) before forming one's view? What is the point of selectively quoting verses that appear to support a particular view, while ignoring others that are germane to the topic?

What are you - the selection cop?
The topic that I addressed to someone else isn't apostasy; it's that there's a sense in which a believer can't stop believing. If you have other verses that bear that out that I didn't include in my "selective quoting", feel free to post them.

P92 · Jul 27, 2017

shakewell said:
The topic that I addressed to someone else isn't apostasy; it's that there's a sense in which a believer can't stop believing.

Distinction without a difference.

shakewell said:
If you have other verses that bear that out that I didn't include in my "selective quoting", feel free to post them.

You quoted Col 3:10 for example, omitting verses 8 and 9. Here is v 10 in context:

"8 But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth. 9 Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, 10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him"

There is both a past reality of having put off the old man, but also a present reality of having to put on the new man, such as in Romans 13:14. Both realities are held in tension by Paul:

"But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh in regard to its lust" (cf. Eph 4:24)

To the same you of Col 3:10, Paul says in Col 1:21-23:

21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard

Regarding v 23, is that 'a sense in which the believer can't stop believing?'

shakewell · Jul 27, 2017

P92 said:
Distinction without a difference.

Wrong.

P92 said:
There is both a past reality of having put off the old man, but also a present reality of having to put on the new man, such as in Romans 13:14. Both realities are held in tension by Paul:

In order to put on the new man, the new man first has to exist. This new man can't stop believing because he's renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him. The "you" doesn't put on the "you". The "you" puts on the new man. The "you" can stop believing. The distictly different "new man" can't.

P92 said:
21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard

Regarding v 23, is that 'a sense in which the believer can't stop believing?'

No. But the examples I gave are.

FreeGrace2 · Jul 27, 2017

I said:
"But Jesus did indicate those who "believe for a while" in Luke 8:13."

shakewell said:
He didn't explicitly say that they stopped believing, only that they fell away. "Fall away" doesn't necessarily mean "stopped believing". "For a while" could simply be time that elapsed before the temptation and falling away occurred.

The words "fell away" refer to "believed for a while". Which is shown by the reasons some cease to believe: time of testing/temptation.

That's my point. The new creature cannot stop believing - that would be a sin.

Of course the new creature CAN sin. The Bible does NOT teach sinless perfection can be achieved on earth.

Paul explained it this way: For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. Gal 5:17

We don't lose our sin nature until we leave this earth.

So when a believer (new creature plus flesh) "stops believing", he still continues to believe deeper down (the new creature); so that there's always a present, continuous sense in which he believes.

There's nothing in the Bible about "believe deeper down". Jesus never said anything about that. Neither did any other NT writer. What Jesus said it clear.

As I understand it, when we die only the new creature goes to heaven. The unredeemed flesh doesn't. Every person (new creature) who goes home to be with the Lord is therefore a believer who never stopped believing. I think this is correct anyway.

What text has led to this idea?

P92 · Jul 27, 2017

shakewell said:
Wrong.

Merely asserting something does not make it so. This was in reference to your quote:

"The topic that I addressed to someone else isn't apostasy; it's that there's a sense in which a believer can't stop believing."

The above is a distinction without a difference because your assertion that there is a sense in which a believer cannot stop believing presupposes that (i) the apostasy of true believers is not possible or (ii) that apostasy is only limited to "never-saved" believers. But it is precisely these presuppositions that are being discussed, so your claim is question-begging.

shakewell said:
In order to put on the new man, the new man first has to exist. This new man can't stop believing because he's renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him. The "you" doesn't put on the "you". The "you" puts on the new man. The "you" can stop believing. The distictly different "new man" can't.

False distinction. The new man that we are called to put on is a man who is in union with Christ, so much so that one could say that the new man is Christ:

Col 3:10-11
10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, 11 where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all.

Rom 13:14
"But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh in regard to its lusts"

Gal 2:20
" I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me"

The putting on of Christ is a choice every believer has to make, and this effort is an effort of faith. When one stops believing, (Col 1:23), one puts off the new man (Christ), i.e., puts on the old man again. Thus, apart from Christ the Vine, the source of Life, there is no perseverance in belief because one is no longer in comm-union with the author and finisher of our faith (Heb 12:2).

shakewell · Jul 27, 2017

FreeGrace2 said:
The words "fell away" refer to "believed for a while".

"believed for a while" doesn't fall away, "they on the rock" fall away.

FreeGrace2 said:
Which is shown by the reasons some cease to believe: time of testing/temptation.

That's not in the text. It doesn't say that they on the rock cease to believe.

FreeGrace2 said:
Of course the new creature CAN sin.

Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. Romans 7:17
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1 John 3:9
My current understanding is that the "I" in Rom 7:17 and the "whosoever" in 1 John 3:9 are the equivalent of "new creature" in 2 Cor 5:17 and Gal 6:15 and that these terms are distinct from "the flesh", which is where the sin dwells (Rom 7:18, 25).

FreeGrace2 said:
The Bible does NOT teach sinless perfection can be achieved on earth.

The new creature doesn't need to "attain" sinless perfection if it's the same thing as the "new man" in Ephesians 4:24 because the sinless perfection is already there from its creation. It's created in righteousness and true holiness, and is distinct from the unredeemed flesh that we also have.

FreeGrace2 said:
Paul explained it this way: For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. Gal 5:17

That's talking about the flesh, not the new man.

FreeGrace2 said:
We don't lose our sin nature until we leave this earth.

The new man doesn't have a sin nature to loose. It's created in righteousness and true holiness.

FreeGrace2 said:
There's nothing in the Bible about "believe deeper down".

The "hidden man of the heart" is not corruptible (1 Peter 3:4). Ceasing to believe is corrupt. I think the hidden man of the heart is where a person always believes continuously, while the carnality of ceasing to believe is in the flesh.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1 John 3:9 Ceasing to believe is a sin. The person this verse is describing doesn't and can't do that; so he believes continuously.

shakewell · Jul 27, 2017

P92 said:
The above is a distinction without a difference because your assertion that there is a sense in which a believer cannot stop believing presupposes that (i) the apostasy of true believers is not possible or (ii) that apostasy is only limited to "never-saved" believers. But it is precisely these presuppositions that are being discussed, so your claim is question-begging.

I asserted neither one of those. This merely demonstrates that you don't understand what I wrote. Take a chill pill.

P92 said:
The new man that we are called to put on is a man who is in union with Christ, so much so that one could say that the new man is Christ:

Col 3:10-11
10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him ...

Do you see what you've done? You just demoted Christ to a created being. The new man is created. Christ isn't.

P92 · Jul 27, 2017

shakewell said:
I asserted neither one of those. This merely demonstrates that you don't understand what I wrote. Take a chill pill.

Yes you did assert either or both of those by saying that there is a sense in which a believer cannot stop believing.

Now, if you meant to say that there is the reality of those believers who do not stop believing, then there is no issue at all with that. But you said "can't" not "don't", the former referencing ability. "Can't" implies one of the 2 presuppositions I mentioned, and for that reason you err.

shakewell said:
Do you see what you've done? You just demoted Christ to a created being. The new man is created. Christ isn't.

This is a non-sequitur. When Paul says, "it is no longer I who lives, but Christ in me...", is he demoting Christ to a created being? The new creation is a man who is living in union with Christ. This union is achieved through faith/believing in Him. When one stops believing (which you admitted a believer can do, as per Col 1:23), one breaks the union with Christ, i.e., one does not "put on" Christ anymore, who is the author and finisher of one's faith. Therefore, contra your claim, one cannot stop believing but "deep down" keep believing at the same time. You are utterly mistaken.

shakewell · Jul 27, 2017

P92 said:
Yes you did assert either or both of those by saying that there is a sense in which a believer cannot stop believing.

No I didn't.

P92 said:
When one stops believing (which you admitted a believer can do, as per Col 1:23), one breaks the union with Christ, i.e., one does not "put on" Christ anymore, who is the author and finisher of one's faith. Therefore, contra your claim, one cannot stop believing but "deep down" keep believing at the same time. You are utterly mistaken.

When a person stops believing the new man doesn't cease to exist.

FreeGrace2 · Jul 28, 2017

shakewell said:
"believed for a while" doesn't fall away, "they on the rock" fall away.

The "they on the rock" or those who believed for a while.

That's not in the text. It doesn't say that they on the rock cease to believe.

How not clear is "believed FOR A WHILE"? The words DESCRIBE one who believed for a period of time and then didn't believe, because of testing/temptation.

Haven't you ever heard of people who lost faith due to circumstances??

Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. Romans 7:17
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1 John 3:9

Have you ceased from ALL sin? Yes or no.

My current understanding is that the "I" in Rom 7:17 and the "whosoever" in 1 John 3:9 are the equivalent of "new creature" in 2 Cor 5:17 and Gal 6:15 and that these terms are distinct from "the flesh", which is where the sin dwells (Rom 7:18, 25).

OK. The new nature cannot sin. That is the point of 1 John 3:9. All of our sin comes from our sinful nature.

The new creature doesn't need to "attain" sinless perfection if it's the same thing as the "new man" in Ephesians 4:24 because the sinless perfection is already there from its creation. It's created in righteousness and true holiness, and is distinct from the unredeemed flesh that we also have.

My point is that from Paul's comment in Gal 5:17, there is a battle raging within every believer between the sin nature and the new nature. We cannot attain sinless perfection because of our sin nature.

The new man doesn't have a sin nature to loose. It's created in righteousness and true holiness.

No argument. We lose the sin nature when we die.

The "hidden man of the heart" is not corruptible (1 Peter 3:4). Ceasing to believe is corrupt. I think the hidden man of the heart is where a person always believes continuously, while the carnality of ceasing to believe is in the flesh.

Maybe we're just playing words games here. You're making my point again.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1 John 3:9 Ceasing to believe is a sin. The person this verse is describing doesn't and can't do that; so he believes continuously.

I contend this is a false conclusion. One CAN cease to believe from the sin nature.

The whole point of 1 Jn 3:9 is to teach that one cannot sin from the new nature. The conclusion from that is to function from the new nature, which means to be filled with the Spirit (Eph 5:18) and walking by the means of the Spirit (Gal 5:16). I see these as the same thing, just phrased differently.

This is the only way to not sin.

shakewell · Jul 28, 2017

FreeGrace2 said:
The "they on the rock" or those who believed for a while.

They're the same people.

FreeGrace2 said:
How not clear is "believed FOR A WHILE"? The words DESCRIBE one who believed for a period of time and then didn't believe, because of testing/temptation.

That's a possible interpretation of the text. I have no problem with it.

There are other possible interpretations that would not violate the wording of the text:

One possible interpretation is that they believed for a period of time without falling away and then continue to believe for a period of time having fallen away. "Fall away" doesn't necessarily mean "cease to believe". It does beg the question, however, of what does "fall away" mean. I would not want to be hasty in trying to answer that question to the exclusion of other possible answers.

Another possible interpretation is that when they believed for a while they believed the word of God in a more general sense (eg. Jesus is THE savior) without ever having believed unto salvation (eg. Jesus is MY savior); in which case they were never saved.

I currently can't lock on to one dogmatic interpretation to the exclusion of all other possible interpretations when I see some of the other interpretations as worthy contenders.

FreeGrace2 said:
Have you ceased from ALL sin? Yes or no.

I'm not trying to evade the question but I don't think an unqualified yes or no fits this discussion, without knowing what is meant by "you".
In the 1 John 1:8 sense - no.
In the 1 John 3:9 sense - yes. (I can't ignore the fact that I've been born of God).
In my current understanding 1:8 is the new creature plus the flesh and 3:9 is the new creature minus the flesh (the only "you" that will be allowed into the presence of holy God when you die - that IS the real "you").

FreeGrace2 said:
OK. The new nature cannot sin. That is the point of 1 John 3:9. All of our sin comes from our sinful nature.

I'm usually OK with a statement like that but in the context of this discussion I have to point out that the word "nature" isn't in the verse. The word "whosoever" is. That's a person; it's me and it's you. The verse says that we do not and cannot sin, ergo we do not and cannot cease to believe.

FreeGrace2 said:
One CAN cease to believe from the sin nature.

OK.
But at the same time God's seed doesn't "remain" in the sin nature; it remains in us (the "whosoever") from the time we're born of God; causing us (the "whosoever") to never sin or cease believing.

Both the "yes, one can cease believing" and the "no, one can't cease believing" are true in their own qualified sense.

P92 · Jul 28, 2017

shakewell said:
When a person stops believing the new man doesn't cease to exist.

When one stops believing (Col 1:23), the new man is put off. The new man does not exist independently from faith.

P92 · Jul 28, 2017

shakewell said:
In my current understanding 1:8 is the new creature plus the flesh and 3:9 is the new creature minus the flesh (the only "you" that will be allowed into the presence of holy God when you die - that IS the real "you").

Gnosticism redux.

Irenaeus on the Valentinians:

"... but as to themselves they hold that they shall be entirely and undoubtedly saved, not by means of conduct, but because they are spiritual by nature. For, just as it is impossible that material substance should partake of salvation..., so again it is impossible that spiritual substance- by which they mean themselves - should ever come under the power of corruption, whatever the sort of actions in which they indulged." (Against Heresies, 1.6.2)

Re 1 John 3:9 - go on to verse 10:

"In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother."

FreeGrace2 · Jul 28, 2017

shakewell said:
They're the same people.
That's a possible interpretation of the text. I have no problem with it.

Great!

There are other possible interpretations that would not violate the wording of the text:

One possible interpretation is that they believed for a period of time without falling away and then continue to believe for a period of time having fallen away.

Except this one does not make sense. It's internally contradicted. The text is quite simple and straightforward; they believed for a while and then fell away.

"Fall away" doesn't necessarily mean "cease to believe". It does beg the question, however, of what does "fall away" mean.

I don't think it begs anything. I think Jesus was very clear; those who believed fell away from their faith (ceased to believe) when testing or temptations arose.

I would not want to be hasty in trying to answer that question to the exclusion of other possible answers.

The simplicity of what Jesus said doesn't require other possibilities.

Another possible interpretation is that when they believed for a while they believed the word of God in a more general sense (eg. Jesus is THE savior) without ever having believed unto salvation (eg. Jesus is MY savior); in which case they were never saved.

Except Jesus used the same word for "believe" in the previous verse in a negative sense, but related to salvation: "lest they believe and be saved".

Again, Jesus is very clear. Those who believe are saved. One cannot in any kind of academic honesty claim that the believing in v.13 is somehow different from the believing in v.12.

I currently can't lock on to one dogmatic interpretation to the exclusion of all other possible interpretations when I see some of the other interpretations as worthy contenders.

I don't see any of them as worthy at all. As I have provided explanation.

I asked this:
"Have you ceased from ALL sin? Yes or no."

I'm not trying to evade the question but I don't think an unqualified yes or no fits this discussion, without knowing what is meant by "you".

It was a personal question to you.

In the 1 John 3:9 sense - yes. (I can't ignore the fact that I've been born of God).

Which is why I asked the question. Have you ceased from ALL sin?

In my current understanding 1:8 is the new creature plus the flesh and 3:9 is the new creature minus the flesh (the only "you" that will be allowed into the presence of holy God when you die - that IS the real "you").

I'm asking you as a person; have you, shakewell, ceased from all sin?

But at the same time God's seed doesn't "remain" in the sin nature; it remains in us (the "whosoever") from the time we're born of God; causing us (the "whosoever") to never sin or cease believing.

Actually, God's seed, the Holy Spirit, CANNOT even be in the sin nature. So where would one think the Spirit resides (dwells) in the believer? In the regenerated new nature, of course. Where there's no sin.

Both the "yes, one can cease believing" and the "no, one can't cease believing" are true in their own qualified sense.

There's nothing in the Bible about the new nature believing or not. One believes BEFORE they are given the new nature.

shakewell · Jul 29, 2017

FreeGrace2, I appreciate the opportunity to discuss this topic with you. It's one I'm quite interested in.
Here are 3 various interpretations that I think are possible (there may be others I haven't thought of). No two of them could be true at the same time. In my opinion not one of them can be dogmatically proven to be true to the exclusion of the others (you would disagree).
****************************************************
Interpretation #1
They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
"Believe" is unto salvation. "Fall away" means cease to believe.
This is your interpretation. I think it's a viable interpretation and I cannot rule it out.
****************************************************
Interpretation #2
They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
They believe for a while with no temptation.
Temptation comes.
They fall away from their duty to bear fruit (which is the main theme of the whole parable).
"For a while" is the time from when they first believed to the time when temptation came, with no mention of them ceasing to believe after the "while" lapsed. Scripture is silent on whether they continued to believe and the silence should be accepted as is.
I accept that you don't accept this interpretation. I also accept that this interpretation cannot be dogmatically ruled out (which in turn you don't accept - OK).
****************************************************
Interpretation #3
They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
They believed the word of God the way King Agrippa believed the word of God in Acts 26:27 but still wasn't saved as a result of believing the word of God. They believed for a while in this non-saving way, and then ceased believing in this non-saving way.
You reject this based on verse 12 that says "lest they should believe and be saved", causing "believe" to be a saving belief.
You interpret it to mean: lest they should believe and [as a direct result of that belief] be saved.
The interpretation #3 is: lest they should believe and [as an indirect result of that belief] be saved.
The picture is this: they believe the word of God that tells them that they're a sinner in need of the Savior, which does not save them but steers them toward believing in Jesus as their own personal Savior, which will save them if they choose to. That's a belief that leads to a further belief that WILL save them.
An example of a belief that leads to a further belief is in John 10:38. ... believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. The first "believe" leads to - but does not necessitate - the second "believe".
I accept that you don't accept this interpretation. I also accept that this interpretation cannot be dogmatically ruled out (which you in turn don't accept - OK).
****************************************************

FreeGrace2 said:
I'm asking you as a person; have you, shakewell, ceased from all sin?

My unqualified answer is "yes and no".

Q: Do you like ice cream?
A: Yes and no.
Qualification: I like ice cream because it tastes good. I don't like ice cream because it makes me fat.
There's a simple, direct question and a simple, direct answer. However the qualification makes the answer clearer so that anyone can understand it.

FreeGrace2 said:
Actually, God's seed, the Holy Spirit, CANNOT even be in the sin nature. So where would one think the Spirit resides (dwells) in the believer? In the regenerated new nature, of course. Where there's no sin.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
You asked me as a "person" if I've ceased from all sin. And yet you seem to be displacing the "person" that is in this verse with an abstract impersonal thing - "nature".
Whatsoever nature is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in it: and it cannot sin because it is born of God. The verse simply doesn't say that.
I can say with absolute confidence that I do not commit sin and that I cannot sin. I can put my name in this "whosoever" just as I can put it in the "whosoever" of John 3:16. This is only half of my answer and half of the qualification to my answer. But this half is 100% true of me (as is the other half described in 1 John 1:8).

I think you need to come to terms with the actual wording of this verse.

FreeGrace2 said:
There's nothing in the Bible about the new nature believing or not.

But there is something in the Bible about the whosoever believing or not: 1 John 3:9
This whosoever is a person and this person cannot sin. The simple logic of Scripture necessitates that since ceasing to believe is a sin; therefore this whosoever cannot cease to believe. Everyone who is born of God is a person who cannot cease to believe (a sin).

FreeGrace2 · Jul 29, 2017

shakewell said:
FreeGrace2, I appreciate the opportunity to discuss this topic with you. It's one I'm quite interested in.
Here are 3 various interpretations that I think are possible (there may be others I haven't thought of). No two of them could be true at the same time. In my opinion not one of them can be dogmatically proven to be true to the exclusion of the others (you would disagree).
****************************************************
Interpretation #1
They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
"Believe" is unto salvation. "Fall away" means cease to believe.
This is your interpretation. I think it's a viable interpretation and I cannot rule it out.
****************************************************
Interpretation #2
They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
They believe for a while with no temptation.
Temptation comes.
They fall away from their duty to bear fruit (which is the main theme of the whole parable).
"For a while" is the time from when they first believed to the time when temptation came, with no mention of them ceasing to believe after the "while" lapsed. Scripture is silent on whether they continued to believe and the silence should be accepted as is.
I accept that you don't accept this interpretation. I also accept that this interpretation cannot be dogmatically ruled out (which in turn you don't accept - OK).
****************************************************
Interpretation #3
They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
They believed the word of God the way King Agrippa believed the word of God in Acts 26:27 but still wasn't saved as a result of believing the word of God. They believed for a while in this non-saving way, and then ceased believing in this non-saving way.
You reject this based on verse 12 that says "lest they should believe and be saved", causing "believe" to be a saving belief.
You interpret it to mean: lest they should believe and [as a direct result of that belief] be saved.
The interpretation #3 is: lest they should believe and [as an indirect result of that belief] be saved.
The picture is this: they believe the word of God that tells them that they're a sinner in need of the Savior, which does not save them but steers them toward believing in Jesus as their own personal Savior, which will save them if they choose to. That's a belief that leads to a further belief that WILL save them.
An example of a belief that leads to a further belief is in John 10:38. ... believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. The first "believe" leads to - but does not necessitate - the second "believe".
I accept that you don't accept this interpretation. I also accept that this interpretation cannot be dogmatically ruled out (which you in turn don't accept - OK).

Thanks for the information.

To my question about whether you have ceased from sin:
"QUOTE]My unqualified answer is "yes and no".

Q: Do you like ice cream?
A: Yes and no.
Qualification: I like ice cream because it tastes good. I don't like ice cream because it makes me fat.
There's a simple, direct question and a simple, direct answer. However the qualification makes the answer clearer so that anyone can understand it.[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure how to relate your answer to ice cream. One either has ceased or not.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
You asked me as a "person" if I've ceased from all sin. And yet you seem to be displacing the "person" that is in this verse with an abstract impersonal thing - "nature".

Quite the contrary. What makes up the person is their nature. What we're all born with is our human nature. It's what makes us a human being. But a nature that is sinful.

Whatsoever nature is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in it: and it cannot sin because it is born of God. The verse simply doesn't say that.
I can say with absolute confidence that I do not commit sin and that I cannot sin. I can put my name in this "whosoever" just as I can put it in the "whosoever" of John 3:16. This is only half of my answer and half of the qualification to my answer. But this half is 100% true of me (as is the other half described in 1 John 1:8).

Again, the obvious reason that a believer "cannot sin" is when they are functioning from the new nature, which was born of imperishable seed (1 Pet 1:23).

I think you need to come to terms with the actual wording of this verse.

I think my understanding does. From Gal 5:17, we know that there is a war raging within the believer. The war is between our 2 natures. When under the influence of the human (sin) nature, we sin.

btw, a believer under the influence of the human nature can look just as moral as anyone else, and as pleasant. Not necessarily evil and immoral. But the human nature is self centered and self pleasing. Some are pleased to have the praises of others, like the Pharisees. John 12:43. Or when the believer relies on their own strength rather than on God's power. This is a form of unbelief.

I also appreciate the opportunity to discuss these things with you. It's been enjoyable. Thanks.

EmSw · Jul 29, 2017

FreeGrace2 said:
btw, a believer under the influence of the human nature can look just as moral as anyone else, and as pleasant. Not necessarily evil and immoral. But the human nature is self centered and self pleasing. Some are pleased to have the praises of others, like the Pharisees. John 12:43. Or when the believer relies on their own strength rather than on God's power. This is a form of unbelief.

And just where do the unbelieving go?

Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

shakewell · Jul 29, 2017

FreeGrace2 said:
Quite the contrary. What makes up the person is their nature.

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

FreeGrace2, please answer:

1. Are you born of God? yes or no
2. Do you commit sin? yes or no
3. Does God's seed remain in you? yes or no
4. Can you sin? yes or no

FreeGrace2 said:
Again, the obvious reason that a believer "cannot sin" is when they are functioning from the new nature, which was born of imperishable seed (1 Pet 1:23).

I don't see anything in this passage that says a "new nature" was born of imperishable seed.

1 Peter 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

FreeGrace2, please answer:
Have you been born again of incorruptible seed? yes or no

FreeGrace2 · Jul 30, 2017

EmSw said:
And just where do the unbelieving go?

Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

These are those who never believed.

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

That's how the Bible describes an unbeliever; one who has not believed.

EmSw · Jul 30, 2017

FreeGrace2 said:
These are those who never believed.

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

That's how the Bible describes an unbeliever; one who has not believed.

Really? I used to believe in Santa Claus. I don't believe in him now; am I still a believer in Santa Claus?

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