The Difference Between the Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming of Christ

claninja · Jul 27, 2017

Marilyn C said:
Hi claninja,

God shows us that the OT saints are NOT in the Body of Christ.

`...you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the first-born who are registered in heaven, to God the judge of all, to the spirits of just men (& women) made perfect...`(Heb. 12: 22 & 23)

Two distinct groups -
1. The church of the first-born registered in heaven,
2. The spirits of just men (& women). OT saints.

Marilyn.

The promises to Abraham were for him and his seed, not seeds.
The only way to inherit the promise is be in Christ. Galatians 3:16

Hebrews 11:39-40
39These (old testament saints) were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

Not 2 separate groups, 1 group. You misunderstand the meaning of Hebrews 12:22-23.

claninja · Jul 27, 2017

Marilyn C said:
Hi claninja,

The term, last days, refers to the time of Pentecost right through to the Lord coming in power and glory to deliver Israel. Hasn`t the Lord`s Holy Spirit been upon the Body of Christ through out the centuries? haven`t believers been filled with the Holy Spirit and given Holy Spirit giftings to prophecy etc?

Note Joel`s time span. (Joel 2: 21 - 32)

Marilyn.

I would say it refers to the last days of the old covenant, not necessarily the end of the world (kosmos).

Marilyn C · Jul 27, 2017

claninja said:
The promises to Abraham were for him and his seed, not seeds.
The only way to inherit the promise is be in Christ. Galatians 3:16

Hebrews 11:39-40
39These (old testament saints) were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

Not 2 separate groups, 1 group. You misunderstand the meaning of Hebrews 12:22-23.

They the OT saints referred to separately from the Body of Christ `looked for a city whose builder and maker is God.` (Heb. 11:10, 13 - 16)
We, the Body of Christ are exhorted to look unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith. The OT saints never had that understanding and thus looked to what God promised them.

It is through Christ that all the different promises that God made to different ones, comes about.

eg. `These (OT saints) all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off....` (Heb. 11: 13)

Marilyn.

Marilyn C · Jul 27, 2017

claninja said:
Hi Marilyn,

Isn't the law to 1.) Love God above all else and 2.) Love your neighbor as yourself?
If so, that's kind of a weird thing to say "how's that working for you?"

You are misunderstanding Hebrews 8:11

1 John 2:26-27
I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. 27As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.

Yes, the new covenant far excels the old covenant.

Hi claninja,

Not really `weird,` but a reality check. If the laws of God are written on your heart then you would be fulfilling them all. None of us can claim we fulfil all the law of God. We walk by the Holy Spirit and are being changed daily as we respond to His leading - convicting, repenting, changing.

Marilyn.

claninja · Jul 27, 2017

Marilyn C said:
Not really `weird,` but a reality check. If the laws of God are written on your heart then you would be fulfilling them all.

That appears to be an assumption, and that I would disagree with. Can you show me that In Scripture? As I cannot find that, but I can see that Paul says: Romans 2:15 They (gentiles) show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them

This doesn't mean that gentiles are perfect or don't need Christ, this shows that gentiles are loving their neighbor as themselves, which is the 2nd greatest commandment

Marilyn C said:
None of us can claim we fulfil all the law of God. We walk by the Holy Spirit and are being changed daily as we respond to His leading - convicting, repenting, changing.

Absolutely agree, otherwise if we could fulfill all the law, we wouldn't need Christ.

Quasar92 · Jul 27, 2017

jgr said:
Since you seem to have already forgotten the OP, here it is again to help you:

Peter declares that Joel's prophecy which he quotes in Acts 2:17-21 was being fulfilled in its entirety that day.

You will notice (I hope) that Peter's quote is from Joel 2:28-32, not 1-11. Please try to pay a little more attention.

The plain Scriptural fact of what Peter said about the Joel prophecy, was out of context. Open your mind to what I have told you. The Day of the Lord DID NOT occur at Pentecost! Do you understand that? That is precisely what Joel's prophecy is about. When the Holy Spirit entered all who were present with Peter at that time, he thought it was the fulfillment of the Joel prophecy. Indeed, it was a pouring out of God's Spirit, but does not fulfill Joel's prophecy, or that of Zech.12, that it points to. When you have read both Joel 2 and Zech.12 I will continue this discussion with you, at that time and not until then.

Quasar92

claninja · Jul 27, 2017

Marilyn C said:
They the OT saints referred to separately from the Body of Christ `looked for a city whose builder and maker is God.` (Heb. 11:10, 13 - 16)
We, the Body of Christ are exhorted to look unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith. The OT saints never had that understanding and thus looked to what God promised them.

It is through Christ that all the different promises that God made to different ones, comes about.

eg. `These (OT saints) all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off....` (Heb. 11: 13)

Marilyn.

Hebrews 11:40 since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

1 group: us and them

Marilyn C · Jul 27, 2017

claninja said:
That appears to be an assumption, and that I would disagree with. Can you show me that In Scripture? As I cannot find that, but I can see that Paul says: Romans 2:15 They (gentiles) show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them

This doesn't mean that gentiles are perfect or don't need Christ, this shows that gentiles are loving their neighbor as themselves, which is the 2nd greatest commandment

Absolutely agree, otherwise if we could fulfill all the law, we wouldn't need Christ.

Hi claninja,

`But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel: after those days, says the Lord, I will put my law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.` (Jer. 31: 33)

`It shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the Lord`s house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and peoples shall flow to it. Many nations shall come and say, "Come and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, and we shall walk in His paths."

For out of Zion the law shall go forth, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.` (Micah 4: 1 & 2)

As to the law written on the hearts of the unbelievers, (Rom. 2: 15) that is their conscience, & not the 10 commandments which was given to Israel.

Marilyn.

Marilyn C · Jul 27, 2017

claninja said:
Hebrews 11:40 since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

1 group: us and them

`Us and them` is two groups, bro. The meaning of `apart from us,` relates to the different inheritances of each group, yet how they are interrelated.

Marilyn.

jgr · Jul 28, 2017

Quasar92 said:
The plain Scriptural fact of what Peter said about the Joel prophecy, was out of context. Open your mind to what I have told you. The Day of the Lord DID NOT occur at Pentecost! Do you understand that? That is precisely what Joel's prophecy is about. When the Holy Spirit entered all who were present with Peter at that time, he thought it was the fulfillment of the Joel prophecy. Indeed, it was a pouring out of God's Spirit, but does not fulfill Joel's prophecy, or that of Zech.12, that it points to. When you have read both Joel 2 and Zech.12 I will continue this discussion with you, at that time and not until then.

Quasar92

I'll let our readers decide who it is that is out of context.

How was the birth of the Church on the Day of Pentecost fulfilled in Joel 2:28-32?

The same way that the Psalmist's deliverance was fulfilled in:

Psalm 18:6-13

6 In my distress I called upon the Lord,
And cried to my God for help;
He heard my voice out of His temple,
And my cry for help before Him came into His ears.
7 Then the earth shook and quaked;
And the foundations of the mountains were trembling
And were shaken, because He was angry.
8 Smoke went up [f]out of His nostrils,
And fire from His mouth devoured;
Coals were kindled by it.
9 He bowed the heavens also, and came down
With thick darkness under His feet.
10 He rode upon a cherub and flew;
And He sped upon the wings of the wind.
11 He made darkness His hiding place, His [g]canopy around Him,
Darkness of waters, thick clouds of the skies.
12 From the brightness before Him passed His thick clouds,
Hailstones and coals of fire.
13 The Lord also thundered in the heavens,
And the Most High uttered His voice,
Hailstones and coals of fire.

If the Psalmist would use such metaphoric apocalyptic language to describe the fulfillment of his personal deliverance experience, how much more would not Joel use such language to describe the fulfillment of an event of singularly monumental prophetic significance – the birth of the Church on the Day of Pentecost.

The same way that judgment upon Edom was fulfilled in:

Isaiah 34:4-10

4 And all the host of heaven will [e]wear away,
And the sky will be rolled up like a scroll;
All their hosts will also wither away
As a leaf withers from the vine,
Or as one withers from the fig tree.
5 For My sword is satiated in heaven,
Behold it shall descend for judgment upon Edom
And upon the people whom I have devoted to destruction.
6 The sword of the Lord is filled with blood,
It is [f]sated with fat, with the blood of lambs and goats,
With the fat of the kidneys of rams.
For the Lord has a sacrifice in Bozrah
And a great slaughter in the land of Edom.
7 Wild oxen will also [g]fall with them
And young bulls with strong ones;
Thus their land will be soaked with blood,
And their dust [h]become greasy with fat.
8 For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
A year of recompense for the [i]cause of Zion.
9 [j]Its streams will be turned into pitch,
And its loose earth into brimstone,
And its land will become burning pitch.
10 It will not be quenched night or day;
Its smoke will go up forever.
From generation to generation it will be desolate;
None will pass through it forever and ever.

If Isaiah would use such metaphoric apocalyptic language to describe the fulfillment of the destruction of the pagan nation of Edom, how much more would not Joel use such language to describe the fulfillment of an event of singularly monumental prophetic significance – the birth of the Church on the Day of Pentecost.

The same way that judgment upon Egypt was fulfilled in:

Ezekiel 32:7-8

7 “And when I extinguish you,
I will cover the heavens and darken their stars;
I will cover the sun with a cloud
And the moon will not give its light.
8 “All the shining lights in the heavens
I will darken over you
And will set darkness on your land,”
Declares the Lord God.

If Ezekiel would use such metaphoric apocalyptic language to describe the fulfillment of ancient judgment which was unleashed on Egypt, how much more would not Joel use such language to describe the fulfillment of an event of singularly monumental prophetic significance – the birth of the Church on the Day of Pentecost.

Acts 2

16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

The prophecy of Joel, quoted by Peter, was fulfilled in metaphoric apocalyptic entirety in the birth of the Church on the Day of Pentecost.

Marilyn C · Jul 28, 2017

jgr said:
I'll let our readers decide who it is that is out of context.

How was the birth of the Church on the Day of Pentecost fulfilled in Joel 2:28-32?

The same way that the Psalmist's deliverance was fulfilled in:

Psalm 18:6-13

6 In my distress I called upon the Lord,
And cried to my God for help;
He heard my voice out of His temple,
And my cry for help before Him came into His ears.
7 Then the earth shook and quaked;
And the foundations of the mountains were trembling
And were shaken, because He was angry.
8 Smoke went up [f]out of His nostrils,
And fire from His mouth devoured;
Coals were kindled by it.
9 He bowed the heavens also, and came down
With thick darkness under His feet.
10 He rode upon a cherub and flew;
And He sped upon the wings of the wind.
11 He made darkness His hiding place, His [g]canopy around Him,
Darkness of waters, thick clouds of the skies.
12 From the brightness before Him passed His thick clouds,
Hailstones and coals of fire.
13 The Lord also thundered in the heavens,
And the Most High uttered His voice,
Hailstones and coals of fire.

If the Psalmist would use such metaphoric apocalyptic language to describe the fulfillment of his personal deliverance experience, how much more would not Joel use such language to describe the fulfillment of an event of singularly monumental prophetic significance – the birth of the Church on the Day of Pentecost.

Hi jgr,

I`m a reader and this is what I believe. David knew of the mighty movements of the Lord -

`Now Mount Seir was completely in smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire. Its smoke ascended like the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mountain quaked greatly.` (Ex. 19: 18)

`And it happened, as they fled before Israel ...that the Lord cast down large hailstones from heaven..` (Joshua 10: 11)

So we have some descriptions of events that are actual and some descriptions to show the Lord`s deliverance in pictorial language. It is quite clear which is which. Thus you cannot just say that because the Psalmist used that language then it applies to Joel or Acts.

Joel`s language is clearly the same as in the books of Zephaniah & other Prophets as well as the book of Revelation, describing the Day of the Lord.

Marilyn.

jgr · Jul 28, 2017

Marilyn C said:
Hi jgr,

I`m a reader and this is what I believe. David knew of the mighty movements of the Lord -

`Now Mount Seir was completely in smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire. Its smoke ascended like the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mountain quaked greatly.` (Ex. 19: 18)

`And it happened, as they fled before Israel ...that the Lord cast down large hailstones from heaven..` (Joshua 10: 11)

So we have some descriptions of events that are actual and some descriptions to show the Lord`s deliverance in pictorial language. It is quite clear which is which. Thus you cannot just say that because the Psalmist used that language then it applies to Joel or Acts.

Joel`s language is clearly the same as in the books of Zephaniah & other Prophets as well as the book of Revelation, describing the Day of the Lord.

Marilyn.

Hi Marilyn; although Psalm 18 doesn't include the expression "Day of the Lord" specifically, it certainly qualifies because verse 9 declares "He bowed the heavens also, and came down". You don't see that claim even in some other Scripture that does include the "Day of the Lord." Yet, the Psalmist described it in past tense as having already occurred and been fulfilled. Joel 2 is no different in tone and tenor from Psalm 18 (or the other cited passages), and in the aforementioned and other respects, even less dramatic. So with the precedents for such language well established, it is no surprise at all to see Joel using it under the circumstances.

Have I understood your premise accurately?

Marilyn C · Jul 28, 2017

jgr said:
Hi Marilyn; although Psalm 18 doesn't include the expression "Day of the Lord" specifically, it certainly qualifies because verse 9 declares "He bowed the heavens also, and came down". You don't see that claim even in some other Scripture that does include the "Day of the Lord." Yet, the Psalmist described it in past tense as having already occurred and been fulfilled. Joel 2 is no different in tone and tenor from Psalm 18 (or the other cited passages), and in the aforementioned and other respects, even less dramatic. So with the precedents for such language well established, it is no surprise at all to see Joel using it under the circumstances.

Have I understood your premise accurately?

Hi jgr,

I was saying that David knew of the amazing events of the Lord coming to Mount Seir, in the past, where the Lord did come down, as you say. That is why he said `came down.` Also, David wrote the Psalm in relation to God delivering him from his enemies - past tense.

Joel on the other hand concerns very specific times and people, in the future, when the Lord will come again and deal with the nations.

Marilyn.

Marilyn C · Jul 28, 2017

jgr · Jul 28, 2017

Marilyn C said:

Hi jgr,

I was saying that David knew of the amazing events of the Lord coming to Mount Seir, in the past, where the Lord did come down, as you say. That is why he said `came down.` Also, David wrote the Psalm in relation to God delivering him from his enemies - past tense.

Joel on the other hand concerns very specific times and people, in the future, when the Lord will come again and deal with the nations.

Marilyn.

Click to expand...

We know that no one can see God and live. How did the Psalmist survive this observation?
8 Smoke went up [f]out of His nostrils,
And fire from His mouth devoured;
Coals were kindled by it.

Marilyn C said:
Joel on the other hand concerns very specific times and people, in the future, when the Lord will come again and deal with the nations.

Peter declared "this is that" prior to his quote from Joel, thus not futurizing it, and signifying that it was to be understood metaphorically.

BABerean2 · Jul 28, 2017

Quasar92 said:
Indeed, it was a pouring out of God's Spirit, but does not fulfill Joel's prophecy, or that of Zech.12, that it points to.

Zec 12:10　 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.　

Was the Spirit poured out on Pentecost? Yes.

Were there people present on the Day of Pentecost that had called for Christ to be pierced and who had seen Him pierced a few weeks earlier? Yes.

Did about 3,000 Israelites "mourn" and "grieve" for what they had done and repented for their sin?
Yes.

.

claninja · Jul 28, 2017

Marilyn C said:
As to the law written on the hearts of the unbelievers, (Rom. 2: 15) that is their conscience, & not the 10 commandments which was given to Israel.

So what is the law that the gentiles do not have, and yet do What is required of it?
Romans 2:14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.

Their conscience bears witness when they do the works of the law. This shows that the law(love your neighbor as yourself) is written on their hearts.

2 things mentioned below: law written on their hearts and ALSO their conscience bears witness by excusing their actions or giving them conflicting thoughts.

Romans 2:15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them

claninja · Jul 28, 2017

Marilyn C said:
`Us and them` is two groups, bro. The meaning of `apart from us,` relates to the different inheritances of each group, yet how they are interrelated.

Marilyn.

What promises did the OT saints see from afar and what were they looking for?
Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.

They were promised a homeland and that is what they were looking for
Hebrews 11:14 For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland.

But not just any homeland, something much better than the physical, they were waiting for the promise of the homeland above
Hebrews 11:16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city.

Though these OT saints were faithful, they did not receive what was promised
Hebrews 11:39 And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised,

They did not receive it because they were not together with the body of Christ. If they are apart from us (the body of Christ) they are not made perfect. For it is Christ who is the heir of the promises, and as we are one with Christ (his body) we too are also heirs.
Hebrews 11:40 since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

And this includes the OT saints, as apart from us, they are not made perfect

Quasar92 · Jul 28, 2017

BABerean2 said:
Zec 12:10　 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.　

Was the Spirit poured out on Pentecost? Yes.

Were there people present on the Day of Pentecost that had called for Christ to be pierced and who had seen Him pierced a few weeks earlier? Yes.

Did about 3,000 Israelites "mourn" and "grieve" for what they had done and repented for their sin?
Yes.

.

Why didn't you post verse 10 in your above post, where Jesus has returned in His Second Coming to the earth? Did Jesus return in His second coming at Pentecost? Stay out of eschatology.
!

Quasar92

Quasar92 · Jul 28, 2017

jgr said:
I'll let our readers decide who it is that is out of context.

How was the birth of the Church on the Day of Pentecost fulfilled in Joel 2:28-32?

The same way that the Psalmist's deliverance was fulfilled in:

Psalm 18:6-13

6 In my distress I called upon the Lord,
And cried to my God for help;
He heard my voice out of His temple,
And my cry for help before Him came into His ears.
7 Then the earth shook and quaked;
And the foundations of the mountains were trembling
And were shaken, because He was angry.
8 Smoke went up [f]out of His nostrils,
And fire from His mouth devoured;
Coals were kindled by it.
9 He bowed the heavens also, and came down
With thick darkness under His feet.
10 He rode upon a cherub and flew;
And He sped upon the wings of the wind.
11 He made darkness His hiding place, His [g]canopy around Him,
Darkness of waters, thick clouds of the skies.
12 From the brightness before Him passed His thick clouds,
Hailstones and coals of fire.
13 The Lord also thundered in the heavens,
And the Most High uttered His voice,
Hailstones and coals of fire.

If the Psalmist would use such metaphoric apocalyptic language to describe the fulfillment of his personal deliverance experience, how much more would not Joel use such language to describe the fulfillment of an event of singularly monumental prophetic significance – the birth of the Church on the Day of Pentecost.

The same way that judgment upon Edom was fulfilled in:

Isaiah 34:4-10

4 And all the host of heaven will [e]wear away,
And the sky will be rolled up like a scroll;
All their hosts will also wither away
As a leaf withers from the vine,
Or as one withers from the fig tree.
5 For My sword is satiated in heaven,
Behold it shall descend for judgment upon Edom
And upon the people whom I have devoted to destruction.
6 The sword of the Lord is filled with blood,
It is [f]sated with fat, with the blood of lambs and goats,
With the fat of the kidneys of rams.
For the Lord has a sacrifice in Bozrah
And a great slaughter in the land of Edom.
7 Wild oxen will also [g]fall with them
And young bulls with strong ones;
Thus their land will be soaked with blood,
And their dust [h]become greasy with fat.
8 For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
A year of recompense for the [i]cause of Zion.
9 [j]Its streams will be turned into pitch,
And its loose earth into brimstone,
And its land will become burning pitch.
10 It will not be quenched night or day;
Its smoke will go up forever.
From generation to generation it will be desolate;
None will pass through it forever and ever.

If Isaiah would use such metaphoric apocalyptic language to describe the fulfillment of the destruction of the pagan nation of Edom, how much more would not Joel use such language to describe the fulfillment of an event of singularly monumental prophetic significance – the birth of the Church on the Day of Pentecost.

The same way that judgment upon Egypt was fulfilled in:

Ezekiel 32:7-8

7 “And when I extinguish you,
I will cover the heavens and darken their stars;
I will cover the sun with a cloud
And the moon will not give its light.
8 “All the shining lights in the heavens
I will darken over you
And will set darkness on your land,”
Declares the Lord God.

If Ezekiel would use such metaphoric apocalyptic language to describe the fulfillment of ancient judgment which was unleashed on Egypt, how much more would not Joel use such language to describe the fulfillment of an event of singularly monumental prophetic significance – the birth of the Church on the Day of Pentecost.

Acts 2

16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

The prophecy of Joel, quoted by Peter, was fulfilled in metaphoric apocalyptic entirety in the birth of the Church on the Day of Pentecost.

The prophecy of Joel, is about the Day of the Lord! The Day of the Lord comes with the return of Jesus in His Second Coming, as Jesus taught in Mt.24:4-31. Show me where that took place at Pentecost, and cut out the pointless arguing! You have no argument!

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