How could Adam and Eve have chosen to eat the apple?

Kutte said:

Dear pescador,
What we have here is a contradiction. Yes, God created mankind in His own image. But Adam and Eve could not have possibly represented an image of God while lacking any awareness of good and bad. It does not take a genius or a theory to see that.
Only after their alleged 'sin' did Adam and Eve become an image, a likeness, of God knowing good from bad.
God bless

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pescador said:

If I take a photograph of someone I have created an image of them. The image has nothing to do with their personality, mental state, sense of humor, etc. God made them in his own image. They didn't have to know good or bad to be made in God's image.

Scripture says, "Then God said, “Let us make humankind in our image, after our likeness, so they may rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move on the earth."

God created humankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them,
male and female he created them."

That's clear to me and it should be to you and everyone else.

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-V- said:

Part of the confusion is thinking what ancient Hebrews meant by "know" or "knowledge" is identical to how we commonly use it in modern English. In modern English, we almost always mean nothing more than factual awareness, and that is the common mistake in looking at "knowledge of good & evil" in the Bible. Mere factual awareness is NOT what it's talking about.

For the ancient Hebrews, "knowing" something is more often tied to experience than it is to factual awareness. For them, a person didn't really "know" something until it was personally experienced by them. Note one of the figures of speech that pops up in the Old Testament - "knowing a woman". Every now and then you see a phrase about so-and-so "knowing" his wife or "knowing" a woman - and it refers to having sex. Sex is an intimate, personal experience. To "know" a woman was to have a close personal experience with her.

This is also seen between God and Abraham after the attempted sacrifice of Isaac. After stopping Abraham from carrying it out, God says, "now I know that you fear God." If this is mere factual awareness, then there is a severe contradiction here. God is omniscient and not bound by time. God, by definition, was already factually aware of what would take place. What God says only makes sense if it was meant as, "now I have experienced that you fear God;" in other words, "now that your fear of God has been demonstrated."

So what we have with Adam & Eve is NOT mere factual awareness of good & evil or right & wrong. They would have already had to possess factual awareness, otherwise instructions to obey and holding them responsible for disobedience doesn't make any sense. For them to "know" good & evil meant to have personal experience with it. They didn't have personal experience with evil until they disobeyed. Once they had that personal experience, they "knew" both good & evil.

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Kutte said:

Hello pescador,
Let me add to your scriptural reference from Genesis 1:26 the verses 27 to 28: So God made man like his Maker. Like God did God make man. Man and maid did he make them. And God blessed them and told them, 'Multiply and fill the earth and subdue it; you are masters of the fish and birds and all the animals.' Note, that my somewhat updated bible THE WAY does not contain the word 'image'.
In other words, God told his creation man and maid to get of their behinds and start working, to subdue the earth and rule over all animals. Do you think this can be done while lacking awareness of right from wrong, good from bad?
Their is no mention about a paradise called Eden in which man and maid just walk around naked forever without having to face sweat and pain while doing hard work.
God bless

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Kutte said:

Concerned parents tend to make their kids early on in life aware of the difference between good and bad thereby trying to prevent them from getting into trouble.

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Kutte said:

One might as well talk to a tree instructing it to bear more fruits.

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Kutte said:

However, giving instructions to anyone to obey without any factual awareness is pretty much meaningless. One might as well talk to a tree instructing it to bear more fruits.
Be blessed

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pescador said:

Buy a new bible, one that agrees with most or all of the respected translations.

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-V- said:

Try reading what I posted one more time. They DID have factual awareness. It was only personal experience they lacked.

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yeshuaslavejeff said:

??
"Concerned parents" today, world wide, in every people, in every country,
are far far far far far far far far far far far
more unrighteous than Adam and Havah (Eve),
or than the Apostles and prophets and disciples in the New Testament,
or than those disciples who followed after them since then.

See in Revelation "the whole world is deceived" and also "refuses to stop serving demons" , and much much more evidence in Scripture (YHWH'S WORD) of the
total wickedness throughout society today, as always. i.e. as in the days of the boat builder .....

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Kutte said:

Hi -A-,


Hi yeshuaslavejeff,
I don't think it is necessary to jump into scriptural Revelation references when trying to show that parents are very well concerned to show their kids the difference between good and bad early on.
It begins with simply things such as handling scissors with care, or not getting burned while trying to touch a flame in a camp fire.
My best

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Kutte said:

Dear pescador,
Once we begin arguing which bible has the correct translation any future discussion becomes meaningless.
This reminds me of my lengthy discussions I have had with Muslims. Whenever I quoted scriptural references from the Qur'an they didn't like their excuse was, "Oh, this is not what the original texts in Arabic means." Nevertheless, my Qur'an version features the English and Arabic texts side by side and has been translated by renowned Muslim scholars.
My THE WAY bible is new and one of three others, among them one German edition.
God bless

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-V- said:

Try reading what I posted one more time. They DID have factual awareness. It was only personal experience they lacked.

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Kutte said:

Hi –V-,

It seems to me that besides ‘factual and/or personal awareness, we are missing a third important element, ‘spiritual awareness’. Let’s look at Adam and Eve as having experienced hunger. Factual, personal experience tells them to reach for some of the many different fruits in the garden to satisfy their hunger. In this case we are dealing with a physical quality.

Let’s take the case of a 10 year old child being confronted by two beings. One telling the child, not to reach for a particular toy it likes to own, or face severe punishment. The other saying, hogwash, nothing will happen to you if you get your hands on the toy you want. The 10 year old kid, lacking any spiritual awareness, is in no position to judge who is telling the truth. What will it do? It will reach for the toy it desires to have of course. Here we are dealing not with personal experiences one collects over time, but with a purely spiritual event designed to ‘inspire’ someone for good or bad.
Be blessed

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pescador said:

Since translation is part art and part science, there will never be 100% agreement among all of them. However, when one stands in contradiction to the great majority, one must suspect that it is in error. Clearly your THE WAY translation falls into that category.

BTW, your Muslim friends are right. It doesn't matter what your side-by-side Qur'an version says, the Arabic is the only accepted version.

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-V- said:

Too bad Adam & Eve weren't 10-year-old children, otherwise you'd have a valid point. And I don't see why Adam & Eve couldn't have any "spiritual awareness" other than because you simply say so.

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Kutte said:

Me laughing -V-,
The mental state of Adam and Eve can indeed be compared to that of a 10 year old kid, if not younger. There wasn't anything in their paradise setting called Eden to stimulate their minds other than reaching for food when hungry and conveniently available. They were naked so temperatures must haven been a steady, balmy 80 degrees Fahrenheit. Thunder and lightening? Forget it.

Since everything in Eden was supposedly 'perfect' Adam and Eve did not encounter any challenges or problems which would have required them to think and come up with solutions. One can easily recognize that the lack of problems and hard work hinders the stimulation of one's mind. In other words, the fate of Adam and Eve can only be compared to that of living deaths.
Thank God for having people in this forum for discussing and arguing about certain topics which serves to stimulate our minds. Isn't this wonderful?
My best

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-V- said:

You've got nothing but pure speculation there.

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ALoveDivine said:

First off, nowhere does Genesis say it was an apple.

Second, there is no compelling reason to think the text is dealing with literal trees. The image of trees and the fruit of trees is used figuratively in many places throughout scripture. They could have been literal, but I don't accept that as a given.

The message of Genesis 2-3 is that original humanity chose to seek their own wisdom and power through an act of insubordination, thereby defying the hierarchical order of creation which had them as authorities over the earth and all that dwelt upon it but subordinated to God.

They didn't want to be subordinated to God, they wanted to be the ultimate authority autonomous unto themselves. That was the original sin, not so much eating a piece of fruit.

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Kutte said:

Hi -V- ,

Honestly, I expected a more in depth response instead of an one-line sentence. Correct me if I am wrong, but it sounds like an excuse to me. Is it really speculative to realize that Adam and Eve must have been surrounded by steady, balmy temperatures of some 80 degrees F., give and take a few, while walking around utterly naked?

Wishing you well

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