Evidence for Christianity??

Nihilist Virus

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Humans don't rely on evidence to get to a truth. Humans rely mainly faith to reach a truth of any kind.

The ask for evidence is a matter of brainwashing education since our childhood.

Among 100% humans who know for a fact that black holes exist, 99% of them don't have the evidence. All they have is basically -------------> Faith!

Humans rely on examining the reliability of info source to determine a truth. 99% humans don't need evidence to take the existence of black holes as a fact simply because they assume that our scientists (as direct human eyewitnesses) are reliable to draw that believable conclusion.

So it seems you sort of get it. We believe in the existence of black holes not because we've looked at the stars ourselves with multi-million dollar telescopes and analyzed the data, but because we trust the people we've entrusted with this task.

Yet if we all stormed their offices and demanded an explanation, and found there was one, we would then hold off on the belief in black holes... I guess... even though they seem to be gravitationally inevitable.

As it turns out, people used to have to take a priest's word for it when they translated and read the Bible. Now we have the printing press - heck we've moved past that into digital media - and we are universally literate. So we've checked the claims of the Bible and guess what we find? Yeah, you know.
 
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Nihilist Virus

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The accounts in the New Testament are as verifiable as first person or eye witness accounts recording history of the Reformation and Renaissance or Revolutionary or Civil War times or other events of history before photographic technology was developed. Every bit of all of that we take purely on faith. And we believe it because no good reason is given us not to believe it.

Quite a bizarre claim. The gospels on many occasions depict Christ's actions when he is alone.

Even more modern day events and modern day documentation--the Kennedy Assassination, the first walk on the moon, the Holocaust, the World Trade Center bombings make their way into conspiracy theory forums and many flat believe they ever happened or happened the way history presents them.

Which is probably what prompted the verse: John 20:29 29 Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

All this does is serve to show that false beliefs can perpetuate in the era of universal literacy, so that's all the more reason to be suspicious of a miracle from 2000 years ago reported second- or third-hand decades after the supposed occurance.
 
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Foxfyre

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Again, which accounts specifically? Pick the best example you can.

I'll pass. There are many websites that you can read pretty much any translation of the Bible you want. I would start with John and Acts though. Maybe John 1:35-51
 
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Foxfyre

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Quite a bizarre claim. The gospels on many occasions depict Christ's actions when he is alone.



All this does is serve to show that false beliefs can perpetuate in the era of universal literacy, so that's all the more reason to be suspicious of a miracle from 2000 years ago reported second- or third-hand decades after the supposed occurance.

I have pondered all that too and came to the conclusion that Jesus must have mentioned it to his closest disciples who then provided witness.

In my youth, education was very big on memorizing and correctly reciting fairly large blocks of texts. To this day I can recite portions of Shakespeare, "Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner", "The Canterbury Tales" etc. The ancient Jews were huge on oral tradition that yes, can incorporate myth into the telling and retelling. Consider the telling and retelling of the legends of George Washington, Daniel Boone, Davy Crockett, Jim Bowie, etc. Much myth has invaded those stories, but all those people did exist and some of the stories are true.

The Jews who were meticulous in representing their faith accurately probably incorporated less myth into the stories, but I allow some to be there. And I trust that training and capability in the oral tradition included integrity of what eventually made it onto the scrolls, copied and recopied for circulation among the congregations and that eventually were chosen and edited into the current form we have them in the Bible.

I am quite certain that Mark, Matthew, and Luke were not created from one cohesive manuscript but are a compilation of many.

So I don't worry too much about what is myth and what is mystery and what is history in the Bible though it is interesting to study and discuss. I know that Jesus lived, and I know that he is with us now, and I have assurance of eternal life. It is a magnificent thing to know.

"The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit." 1 Corinthians 2:14
 
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Nihilist Virus

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I have pondered all that too and came to the conclusion that Jesus must have mentioned it to his closest disciples who then provided witness.

Forgive me for yanking the steering wheel here but I'm fascinated that you said this.

When I talk to Christians about the conversation that Jesus held with the rich young ruler, they say that it was just a "private" conversation between Jesus and the rich young ruler. What Jesus said applied only to the rich young ruler and hence Christians don't have to give away all their possessions... or even any of their possessions... not even their TVs, which undoubtedly cause them to sin (whatever "sin" actually means...). I inevitably ask why it's even in the Bible if it's not meant for anyone at all, and they typically say, "That it's just a thing that happened and it got written down. Would you want me to follow Christ's instructions when he told Zaccaeus to come down from that tree?"

But you'll have me believe that Jesus went out of his way to tell people about this conversation with the rich young ruler. After all, no one was there but Jesus and the rich young ruler. Neither of those people wrote anything down, and there's no indication that the rich young ruler went around telling people about why he was unqualified to join Jesus. So Jesus probably relayed this information... but why? Why relay this information, knowing it would be written down and yet be meant for no one at all? Or have you actually sold all that you have, given to the poor, and wandered the world doing good works and preaching the gospel? Do you operate your account here on Christian forums via public libraries?
 
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Dave Ellis

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I'll pass. There are many websites that you can read pretty much any translation of the Bible you want. I would start with John and Acts though. Maybe John 1:35-51

Oddly enough, you declined to answer my question then went ahead and finally answered it. Why couldn't you just have said John and Acts two or three posts ago?

That being said, I have read the bible in it's entirety. Neither John, nor Acts (which was likely written by the same author as the book of Luke) were written by eyewitnesses. Luke/Acts is dated to at least the early-mid 90s AD, and John is dated to at least the same period if not 10-20 years later.

Do you have an example of a writing from a contemporary eyewitness?
 
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Foxfyre

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Forgive me for yanking the steering wheel here but I'm fascinated that you said this.

When I talk to Christians about the conversation that Jesus held with the rich young ruler, they say that it was just a "private" conversation between Jesus and the rich young ruler. What Jesus said applied only to the rich young ruler and hence Christians don't have to give away all their possessions... or even any of their possessions... not even their TVs, which undoubtedly cause them to sin (whatever "sin" actually means...). I inevitably ask why it's even in the Bible if it's not meant for anyone at all, and they typically say, "That it's just a thing that happened and it got written down. Would you want me to follow Christ's instructions when he told Zaccaeus to come down from that tree?"

But you'll have me believe that Jesus went out of his way to tell people about this conversation with the rich young ruler. After all, no one was there but Jesus and the rich young ruler. Neither of those people wrote anything down, and there's no indication that the rich young ruler went around telling people about why he was unqualified to join Jesus. So Jesus probably relayed this information... but why? Why relay this information, knowing it would be written down and yet be meant for no one at all? Or have you actually sold all that you have, given to the poor, and wandered the world doing good works and preaching the gospel? Do you operate your account here on Christian forums via public libraries?

Well we have one of two conclusions to draw. 1) Jesus told somebody about his experience in the desert, with various persons with whom he had conversations, the events in the Garden at Gethsemane, etc. or 2) they are all made up stories.

My personal suspicion is that most such accounts are paraphrases and possibly a combination of both.

I do agree that the lesson to be learned is based on the circumstances of the particular event/person and most were not intended to be universal edicts. Just as Jesus would not have literally spoken of splinters and logs in the eye but as metaphors to illustrate that we do not have license to criticize another for something we ourselves do. A universal principle to apply as appropriate and not to take literally.

And of course his instructions to the rich young man were not intended literally for everybody but as the universal truth that we should rid ourselves of whatever is blocking our relationship with God.
 
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Foxfyre

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Oddly enough, you declined to answer my question then went ahead and finally answered it. Why couldn't you just have said John and Acts two or three posts ago?

That being said, I have read the bible in it's entirety. Neither John, nor Acts (which was likely written by the same author as the book of Luke) were written by eyewitnesses. Luke/Acts is dated to at least the early-mid 90s AD, and John is dated to at least the same period if not 10-20 years later.

Do you have an example of a writing from a contemporary eyewitness?

Most of the New Testament writers were contemporary in that time. The manuscripts universally accepted for the 'canonized' collection known as the New Testament was based on whether the manuscript was written by somebody who was an eye witness to the accounts or who directly knew somebody who was an eye witness to the accounts. Scholars in modern times question that in various cases, but overall, it can be considered mostly reliable.

And I cited those two passages as examples but not necessarily as what I consider the best example which is what you asked for.
 
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ToddNotTodd

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Most of the New Testament writers were contemporary in that time. The manuscripts universally accepted for the 'canonized' collection known as the New Testament was based on whether the manuscript was written by somebody who was an eye witness to the accounts or who directly knew somebody who was an eye witness to the accounts. Scholars in modern times question that in various cases, but overall, it can be considered mostly reliable.

And I cited those two passages as examples but not necessarily as what I consider the best example which is what you asked for.

As far as I know, there's zero evidence to suggest that the gospels were written by eye witnesses, or by someone that directly knew an eye witness.

Do you have any evidence of this?
 
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Dave Ellis

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Most of the New Testament writers were contemporary in that time. The manuscripts universally accepted for the 'canonized' collection known as the New Testament was based on whether the manuscript was written by somebody who was an eye witness to the accounts or who directly knew somebody who was an eye witness to the accounts. Scholars in modern times question that in various cases, but overall, it can be considered mostly reliable.

And I cited those two passages as examples but not necessarily as what I consider the best example which is what you asked for.

No, actually, they weren't. None of the gospel writers were eyewitnesses, neither was Paul. As for the canonization process, it mainly went along with whatever books the version of Christianity that won out and became the dominant orthodox form considered to be non-heretical.

In the first and second centuries there were some wildly different ideas of what Christianity was. For example, the Marcionites believed that the old testament god was an evil god, and a lower god than the true god which Jesus was the son of. Jesus was sent by the real god to save us from Yahweh. They were strongly anti-Jewish as a result (as they thought they were followers of the evil god), and rejected the Old Testament. They also rejected all of the gospels except the Gospel of Marcion which was based on Luke.

The Ebionites on the other hand were a strongly Jewish version of Christianity. They believed in holding to all of the old testament rituals, however they rejected Paul's writings and all of the modern gospels as well. They used the Gospel of the Ebionites instead.

Docetism on the other hand believed that Jesus didn't actually exist physically, and that he was pure spirit. Different groups had different takes on salvation seeing as if he was pure spirit, then he could not die, and therefore was never crucified and died for our sins.

There were groups who believed there was one god, and Jesus was his son. Others thought Jesus was a regular human who was adopted by god. Some groups thought Jesus was god, and some believed Jesus didn't actually physically exist. Some groups thought there were two gods, or ten gods. There was a group that even believed in 365 gods (one for every day of the year). There were quite a number of other wildly different takes on what Jesus was, what his mission was, how many gods there were.

Some of these sects lasted into the 4th, 5th and 6th centuries, or later in some cases.

The only reason the bible is how it is today is because the sect that emerged as the most powerful and dominant one happened to believe in the writings that later came to be canonized as the modern bible. At no point in the early history of Christianity were they a majority view, they were just one of many sects, and they eventually got the most converts and amassed the most power. When they got powerful enough, they actively snuffed out all other sects they thought were heretical.

That's it, there's no basis in fact that went into it. If the Marcionites had won, we'd have a totally different holy book, with just as much evidence backing it. In fact, I think the Marcionite take on things actually makes more sense given the state of the world. Their version of Christianity at least fully addresses things like the problem of evil.

Lastly, and it should go without saying, if there were all of these wildly different sects right at the beginning of Christianity, then how much basis in actual fact could there have been? If there was a Jesus who walked the earth and gave a clear message on what he wanted done, it's almost unthinkable nobody agreed on the core fundamentals of the religion mere decades after he was said to have lived.
 
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Well we have one of two conclusions to draw. 1) Jesus told somebody about his experience in the desert, with various persons with whom he had conversations, the events in the Garden at Gethsemane, etc. or 2) they are all made up stories.

My personal suspicion is that most such accounts are paraphrases and possibly a combination of both.

I do agree that the lesson to be learned is based on the circumstances of the particular event/person and most were not intended to be universal edicts. Just as Jesus would not have literally spoken of splinters and logs in the eye but as metaphors to illustrate that we do not have license to criticize another for something we ourselves do. A universal principle to apply as appropriate and not to take literally.

And of course his instructions to the rich young man were not intended literally for everybody but as the universal truth that we should rid ourselves of whatever is blocking our relationship with God.

So what have you given up? Or is your walk with God optimal without need of sacrifice?
 
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Foxfyre

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As far as I know, there's zero evidence to suggest that the gospels were written by eye witnesses, or by someone that directly knew an eye witness.

Do you have any evidence of this?

Just research on the process that went into what we consider the canonized New Testament. The synoptic gospels were edited into one cohesive manuscript but were almost certainly entirely composed of manuscript fragments, collected sayings (pericopes in theology class) of Jesus and others, and other of oral tradition that was appropriate.

I did not intend to say, if I did--I didn't go back and reread my post--that every single statement in any book of the New Testament was an eye witness account, but only accounts by witnesses to the times, the people, the events, etc. were considered authoritative on the facts. It is because there wasn't much to authenticate the books of the Apocrypha, for instance, that those were separated from the pack and included separately. They would be omitted from New Testaments used in most of the denominations that formed during and subsequent to the Reformation.
 
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Foxfyre

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No, actually, they weren't. None of the gospel writers were eyewitnesses, neither was Paul. As for the canonization process, it mainly went along with whatever books the version of Christianity that won out and became the dominant orthodox form considered to be non-heretical.

In the first and second centuries there were some wildly different ideas of what Christianity was. For example, the Marcionites believed that the old testament god was an evil god, and a lower god than the true god which Jesus was the son of. Jesus was sent by the real god to save us from Yahweh. They were strongly anti-Jewish as a result (as they thought they were followers of the evil god), and rejected the Old Testament. They also rejected all of the gospels except the Gospel of Marcion which was based on Luke.

The Ebionites on the other hand were a strongly Jewish version of Christianity. They believed in holding to all of the old testament rituals, however they rejected Paul's writings and all of the modern gospels as well. They used the Gospel of the Ebionites instead.

Docetism on the other hand believed that Jesus didn't actually exist physically, and that he was pure spirit. Different groups had different takes on salvation seeing as if he was pure spirit, then he could not die, and therefore was never crucified and died for our sins.

There were groups who believed there was one god, and Jesus was his son. Others thought Jesus was a regular human who was adopted by god. Some groups thought Jesus was god, and some believed Jesus didn't actually physically exist. Some groups thought there were two gods, or ten gods. There was a group that even believed in 365 gods (one for every day of the year). There were quite a number of other wildly different takes on what Jesus was, what his mission was, how many gods there were.

Some of these sects lasted into the 4th, 5th and 6th centuries, or later in some cases.

The only reason the bible is how it is today is because the sect that emerged as the most powerful and dominant one happened to believe in the writings that later came to be canonized as the modern bible. At no point in the early history of Christianity were they a majority view, they were just one of many sects, and they eventually got the most converts and amassed the most power. When they got powerful enough, they actively snuffed out all other sects they thought were heretical.

That's it, there's no basis in fact that went into it. If the Marcionites had won, we'd have a totally different holy book, with just as much evidence backing it. In fact, I think the Marcionite take on things actually makes more sense given the state of the world. Their version of Christianity at least fully addresses things like the problem of evil.

Lastly, and it should go without saying, if there were all of these wildly different sects right at the beginning of Christianity, then how much basis in actual fact could there have been? If there was a Jesus who walked the earth and gave a clear message on what he wanted done, it's almost unthinkable nobody agreed on the core fundamentals of the religion mere decades after he was said to have lived.

Whatever floats your boat. Forgive me for not reading all that, but I've heard it all far too many times from the Atheists and others who seem almost desperate to disprove the truth of the Christ and the salvation He offers. I will just say again that those who do not have the Spirit cannot discern the truth that is spiritually discerned. I do wish you well on the journey and hope you will answer the call when He comes knocking. And I believe He will. :)
 
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Foxfyre

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So what have you given up? Or is your walk with God optimal without need of sacrifice?

Depends on your definition of sacrifice I guess. Do I believe Jesus sacrificed himself on the Cross? Yes I do.

Do I believe that it was eye witness accounts of that event that made it into the New Testament and also eye witness accounts of the resurrection? Yes I do. As well as much of what we have of His life here on Earth.

Do I believe I am required to live a life of deprivation or suffering in any respect in order to love and obey Him? Nope. Hasn't been asked of me so far.
 
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Dave Ellis

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Whatever floats your boat. Forgive me for not reading all that, but I've heard it all far too many times from the Atheists and others who seem almost desperate to disprove the truth of the Christ and the salvation He offers. I will just say again that those who do not have the Spirit cannot discern the truth that is spiritually discerned. I do wish you well on the journey and hope you will answer the call when He comes knocking. And I believe He will. :)

Ah, ok.... plug your ears and ignore a detailed explanation of why your holy book likely isn't anything more than a work of fiction.

I'm not desperate to disprove anything, quite honestly I think it's already been disproven. I just love a good debate.
 
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Dave Ellis

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Just research on the process that went into what we consider the canonized New Testament. The synoptic gospels were edited into one cohesive manuscript but were almost certainly entirely composed of manuscript fragments, collected sayings (pericopes in theology class) of Jesus and others, and other of oral tradition that was appropriate.

I did not intend to say, if I did--I didn't go back and reread my post--that every single statement in any book of the New Testament was an eye witness account, but only accounts by witnesses to the times, the people, the events, etc. were considered authoritative on the facts. It is because there wasn't much to authenticate the books of the Apocrypha, for instance, that those were separated from the pack and included separately. They would be omitted from New Testaments used in most of the denominations that formed during and subsequent to the Reformation.

Most scholars agree the synoptic gospels were largely plagiarized and edited versions of the book of Mark. Large sections are even copied word for word, this is known as the synoptic problem amongst bible scholars.

Virtually no bible scholars outside of hard fundamentalism (even Christian ones) think the bible was composed by direct eyewitnesses.
 
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Ed1wolf

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Yes, I do agree that Jesus was a real historical person. There is much in the Bible that is historically accurate, as I stated in another post. But that does not mean that everything stated in the Bible is true. One could easily write a book where one sincerely expresses their beliefs, and in the process of writing the book mention many things that are true and historically accurate. However, that does not mean that everything in the book is true or even accurate. Whether something is historically true requires good evidence.
But there is strong evidence that it was written by people that witnessed the events and shortly after the events occurred. And some were even skeptics initially and then convinced by the resurrection. When there is evidence that skeptics were convinced by the events that occurred that makes the historical facts even stronger.
 
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Ed1wolf

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So what I want to do is explain why I do not believe there is enough evidence to warrant belief in the physical resurrection. There is evidence, but not enough, i.e., it is simply too weak of an argument to believe such an event occurred. The argument is rather simple; and it is something I missed for years.

First, almost all of the testimonial evidence is hearsay. Second, hearsay is intrinsically weak testimonial evidence which is why it is generally not accepted in courts of law, and if it is accepted it has to follow strict guidelines.

The number of firsthand witnesses to the resurrection is non-existent. It is all after the fact, unless you count hearsay as good testimonial evidence.
However, for the purposes of this argument let's grant that there were 3 or 4 firsthand witnesses (the Gospels). That is not strong enough testimonial evidence. Why? Because there is just too much counter-evidence. Too many examples of people not rising from the dead. An event such as a resurrection would require much more testimonial evidence for it to be credible. And such evidence just does not exist.

Remember all the evidence used to support the resurrection.

1) 500 witnesses after the crucifixion and death
2) The changed lives of the disciples
3) The grave site
4) The Roman guards
5) The stone
6) The torture of Christ
... and so on.

All of this evidence is given by the testimony of just a few witnesses. Moreover, much of it is hearsay. Thus based on this simple argument one can safely conclude that the resurrection probably did not happen, or at least determine that there just is not enough evidence to conclude that Christ rose from the dead, or that he was God. This is not difficult to follow or to conclude.

There is much that could be said, but I will just present the argument is the simplest of terms.
Although you mentioned something that is in the ancient creed of I Corinthians 15:3-5, this creed is independent of the NT since it was composed long before the NT, many scholars including non-Christian ones believe it was composed less than 5 years after the resurrection. This is strong independent evidence for the resurrection. Then of course, we have not even touched on all the strong scientific evidence for Christianity.
 
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Dave Ellis

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But there is strong evidence that it was written by people that witnessed the events and shortly after the events occurred. And some were even skeptics initially and then convinced by the resurrection. When there is evidence that skeptics were convinced by the events that occurred that makes the historical facts even stronger.

You're simply incorrect. Even most christian bible scholars disagree with your take on this topic.
 
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Depends on your definition of sacrifice I guess. Do I believe Jesus sacrificed himself on the Cross? Yes I do.

Do I believe that it was eye witness accounts of that event that made it into the New Testament and also eye witness accounts of the resurrection? Yes I do. As well as much of what we have of His life here on Earth.

Do I believe I am required to live a life of deprivation or suffering in any respect in order to love and obey Him? Nope. Hasn't been asked of me so far.

I'm asking if you need to sacrifice something or if your walk with God is not being hindered by anything.
 
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