Ireneaus on End Times

BABerean2 said:

Since the trib ends at the 7th trump of Revelation 11:15, and we find "the time of the judgment of the dead" at Revelation 11:18, there is no seven year tribulation period.


That would make Irenaeus Post-Trib.

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Biblewriter said:

We should probably start with the sequence of coming events that Irenaeus saw in the scriptures.

“In a still clearer light has John, in the Apocalypse, indicated to the Lord’s disciples what shall happen in the last times, and concerning the ten kings who shall then arise, among whom the empire which now rules [the earth] shall be partitioned. He teaches us what the ten horns shall be which were seen by Daniel, telling us that thus it had been said to him: ‘And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, who have received no kingdom as yet, but shall receive power as if kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and give their strength and power to the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them, because He is the Lord of lords and the King of kings.’ It is manifest, therefore, that of these [potentates], he who is to come shall slay three, and subject the remainder to his power, and that he shall be himself the eighth among them. And they shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight. After that they shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord.” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXVI, section 1)

“Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons ‘as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance—in fact, as nothing;’ so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, ‘There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.’ For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXIX, section 1)

“But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom, that is, the rest, the hallowed seventh day; and restoring to Abraham the promised inheritance, in which kingdom the Lord declared, that ‘many coming from the east and from the west should sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.’” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXX, section 3)

“For all these and other words were unquestionably spoken in reference to the resurrection of the just, which takes place after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule; in [the times of] which [resurrection] the righteous shall reign in the earth, waxing stronger by the sight of the Lord: and through Him they shall become accustomed to partake in the glory of God the Father, and shall enjoy in the kingdom intercourse and communion with the holy angels, and union with spiritual beings; those whom the Lord shall find in the flesh, awaiting Him from heaven, and who have suffered tribulation, as well as escaped the hands of the Wicked one. For it is in reference to them that the prophet says: ‘And those that are left shall multiply upon the earth,’ And Jeremiah the prophet has pointed out, that as many believers as God has prepared for this purpose, to multiply those left upon earth, should both be under the rule of the saints to minister to this Jerusalem, and that [His] kingdom shall be in it, saying, ‘Look around Jerusalem towards the east, and behold the joy which comes to thee from God Himself. Behold, thy sons shall come whom thou hast sent forth: they shall come in a band from the east even unto the west, by the word of that Holy One, rejoicing in that splendour which is from thy God.’” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXXV, section 1)

“And in the Apocalypse John saw this new [Jerusalem] descending upon the new earth. For after the times of the kingdom, he says, ‘I saw a great white throne, and Him who sat upon it, from whose face the earth fled away, and the heavens; and there was no more place for them.’ And he sets forth, too, the things connected with the general resurrection and the judgment, mentioning ‘the dead, great and small.’ ‘The sea,’ he says, ‘gave up the dead which it had in it, and death and hell delivered up the dead that they contained; and the books were opened. Moreover,’ he says, ‘the book of life was opened, and the dead were judged out of those things that were written in the books, according to their works; and death and hell were sent into the lake of fire, the second death.’ Now this is what is called Gehenna, which the Lord styled eternal fire. ‘And if any one,’ it is said, ‘was not found written in the book of life, he was sent into the lake of fire.’ And after this, he says, ‘I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and earth have passed away; also there was no more sea. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from heaven, as a bride adorned for her husband.’ ‘And I heard,’ it is said, ‘a great voice from the throne, saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them; and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them as their God. And He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain, because the former things have passed away.’ Isaiah also declares the very same: ‘For there shall be a new heaven and a new earth; and there shall be no remembrance of the former, neither shall the heart think about them, but they shall find in it joy and exultation.’ Now this is what has been said by the apostle: ‘For the fashion of this world passeth away.’ To the same purpose did the Lord also declare, ‘Heaven and earth shall pass away.’ When these things, therefore, pass away above the earth, John, the Lord’s disciple, says that the new Jerusalem above shall [then] descend, as a bride adorned for her husband; and that this is the tabernacle of God, in which God will dwell with men. Of this Jerusalem the former one is an image—that Jerusalem of the former earth in which the righteous are disciplined beforehand for incorruption and prepared for salvation.” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXXV, section 2)

In this sequence of quotations, we see the following sequence clearly spelled out:

1. In the last times the Roman Empire shall be partitioned among ten kings.

2. One of these ten kings will slay three of the others, subject the rest to his power, and put the Church to flight.

3. When the church is “suddenly caught up from” the nations there will be great tribulation which will be “the last contest of the righteous.”

4. The Antichrist will reign for three years and six months.

5. The Antichrist and his followers will be destroyed when the Lord comes in the clouds.

6. The just will be resurrected after the coming of Antichrist.

7. The righteous will reign in the earth.

8. The survivors of the tribulation will serve in the kingdom and multiply on the earth.

9. After the kingdom will come the general resurrection and judgement.

10. After the judgment will come the new heavens and new earth.

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keras said:

I gave up looking at commentaries long ago. They are good for issues like salvation, etc, but totally useless about prophecy. Irenaeus is no different in this regard.
Daniel 12:9-10 couldn't be clearer:....the words are sealed until the time of the end...then only some teachers will understand.

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Biblewriter said:

We should probably start with the sequence of coming events that Irenaeus saw in the scriptures.

“In a still clearer light has John, in the Apocalypse, indicated to the Lord’s disciples what shall happen in the last times, and concerning the ten kings who shall then arise, among whom the empire which now rules [the earth] shall be partitioned. He teaches us what the ten horns shall be which were seen by Daniel, telling us that thus it had been said to him: ‘And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, who have received no kingdom as yet, but shall receive power as if kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and give their strength and power to the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them, because He is the Lord of lords and the King of kings.’ It is manifest, therefore, that of these [potentates], he who is to come shall slay three, and subject the remainder to his power, and that he shall be himself the eighth among them. And they shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight. After that they shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord.” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXVI, section 1)

“Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons ‘as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance—in fact, as nothing;’ so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, ‘There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.’ For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXIX, section 1)

“But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom, that is, the rest, the hallowed seventh day; and restoring to Abraham the promised inheritance, in which kingdom the Lord declared, that ‘many coming from the east and from the west should sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.’” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXX, section 3)

“For all these and other words were unquestionably spoken in reference to the resurrection of the just, which takes place after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule; in [the times of] which [resurrection] the righteous shall reign in the earth, waxing stronger by the sight of the Lord: and through Him they shall become accustomed to partake in the glory of God the Father, and shall enjoy in the kingdom intercourse and communion with the holy angels, and union with spiritual beings; those whom the Lord shall find in the flesh, awaiting Him from heaven, and who have suffered tribulation, as well as escaped the hands of the Wicked one. For it is in reference to them that the prophet says: ‘And those that are left shall multiply upon the earth,’ And Jeremiah the prophet has pointed out, that as many believers as God has prepared for this purpose, to multiply those left upon earth, should both be under the rule of the saints to minister to this Jerusalem, and that [His] kingdom shall be in it, saying, ‘Look around Jerusalem towards the east, and behold the joy which comes to thee from God Himself. Behold, thy sons shall come whom thou hast sent forth: they shall come in a band from the east even unto the west, by the word of that Holy One, rejoicing in that splendour which is from thy God.’” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXXV, section 1)

“And in the Apocalypse John saw this new [Jerusalem] descending upon the new earth. For after the times of the kingdom, he says, ‘I saw a great white throne, and Him who sat upon it, from whose face the earth fled away, and the heavens; and there was no more place for them.’ And he sets forth, too, the things connected with the general resurrection and the judgment, mentioning ‘the dead, great and small.’ ‘The sea,’ he says, ‘gave up the dead which it had in it, and death and hell delivered up the dead that they contained; and the books were opened. Moreover,’ he says, ‘the book of life was opened, and the dead were judged out of those things that were written in the books, according to their works; and death and hell were sent into the lake of fire, the second death.’ Now this is what is called Gehenna, which the Lord styled eternal fire. ‘And if any one,’ it is said, ‘was not found written in the book of life, he was sent into the lake of fire.’ And after this, he says, ‘I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and earth have passed away; also there was no more sea. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from heaven, as a bride adorned for her husband.’ ‘And I heard,’ it is said, ‘a great voice from the throne, saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them; and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them as their God. And He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain, because the former things have passed away.’ Isaiah also declares the very same: ‘For there shall be a new heaven and a new earth; and there shall be no remembrance of the former, neither shall the heart think about them, but they shall find in it joy and exultation.’ Now this is what has been said by the apostle: ‘For the fashion of this world passeth away.’ To the same purpose did the Lord also declare, ‘Heaven and earth shall pass away.’ When these things, therefore, pass away above the earth, John, the Lord’s disciple, says that the new Jerusalem above shall [then] descend, as a bride adorned for her husband; and that this is the tabernacle of God, in which God will dwell with men. Of this Jerusalem the former one is an image—that Jerusalem of the former earth in which the righteous are disciplined beforehand for incorruption and prepared for salvation.” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXXV, section 2)

In this sequence of quotations, we see the following sequence clearly spelled out:

1. In the last times the Roman Empire shall be partitioned among ten kings.

2. One of these ten kings will slay three of the others, subject the rest to his power, and put the Church to flight.

3. When the church is “suddenly caught up from” the nations there will be great tribulation which will be “the last contest of the righteous.”

4. The Antichrist will reign for three years and six months.

5. The Antichrist and his followers will be destroyed when the Lord comes in the clouds.

6. The just will be resurrected after the coming of Antichrist.

7. The righteous will reign in the earth.

8. The survivors of the tribulation will serve in the kingdom and multiply on the earth.

9. After the kingdom will come the general resurrection and judgement.

10. After the judgment will come the new heavens and new earth.

Click to expand...

keras said:

I gave up looking at commentaries long ago. They are good for issues like salvation, etc, but totally useless about prophecy. Irenaeus is no different in this regard.
Daniel 12:9-10 couldn't be clearer:....the words are sealed until the time of the end...then only some teachers will understand.

Click to expand...

miknik5 said:

Is there some way that you can post the link for Agsinst Heresies


Thanks

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miknik5 said:

Is there some way that you can post the link for Agsinst Heresies


Thanks

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miknik5 said:

I dont think it's right to paste only portions of chapters and sections skipping over consecutive chapters and sections

I was wondering about iranaeus' words in the chapters and sections which are skipped over

Don't we need them in order to get a full understanding of what iranaeus is saying

These are the chapters and sections you have included:
26 (1), 29 (1) 30 (3), 35 (1), 35 (2)

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Biblewriter said:

The sections I have quoted are selected to show the chain of events as Irenaeus portrayed them. I have no doubt that I quoted these passeges in their proper context. But I gave specific citations so anyone could easily check this for themselves. To post it all would have taken so much space that very few would bother to read it.

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Biblewriter said:

ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

This is a very long work, consisting of five volumes. His comments on the end times fill the last twelve chapters of book five.

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miknik5 said:

I also was wondering what is the difference between the church and the saints.

How does one come to the conclusion that iranaeous somehow shifted from speaking about the church to the saints as if this has some sort of hidden meaning and reference to the rapture of the church

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miknik5 said:

So you are saying that these sections which you have quoted (even though there are big chunks missing in between) reflect the proper order of events which you recap in your bullets?

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nonaeroterraqueous said:

Contrary to popular opinion, we are not all blind, though we do sometimes read too fast and overlook things.

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Biblewriter said:

In the eyes of a Dispensationalist, the group called "the church" is a subset of the group called "the saints." That is, "the saints" means all the people of God, of all ages, while "the church" means only those people of God who follow Him in the present dispensation.

That is, again in the eyes of Dispensationalists, all real members of "the church," as opposed to mere professors, are "saints." And all "saints" of the present age are members of "the church." But "saints" of Old Testament days, and "saints" of the days after the rapture, are not members of "the church." This has nothing to do with how people are saved. It has only to do with what Dispensationalists think these specific terms mean, as they are used in the scriptures.

Now Irenaeus never stated this division in meanings. But as Dispensationalists think this is what the scriptures actually mean when they use these terms, they have no problem in seeing them used in this way in the commentary by Irenaeus.

To a post tribber, or to a non-dispensationalist, the way Irenaeus used these terms seems to be contradictory. But to a pre-tribulational Dispensationalist, this terminology is 100% consistent.

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Biblewriter said:

In the eyes of a Dispensationalist, the group called "the church" is a subset of the group called "the saints." That is, "the saints" means all the people of God, of all ages, while "the church" means only those people of God who follow Him in the present dispensation.

That is, again in the eyes of Dispensationalists, all real members of "the church," as opposed to mere professors, are "saints." And all "saints" of the present age are members of "the church." But "saints" of Old Testament days, and "saints" of the days after the rapture, are not members of "the church." This has nothing to do with how people are saved. It has only to do with what Dispensationalists think these specific terms mean, as they are used in the scriptures.

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Biblewriter said:

Your analysis fails to take in the distinct change in the nouns and pronouns Irenaeus placed in his scenario. Up to the beginning of the three and a half year reign of the antichrist, he always said something like "the church," "we," or "us." But at that point, his pronouns cahanged to always be "they," them," of "those."

This is proof that his meaning was exactly what I interpreted it to be. The "righteous" he spoke of after that time, were not a part of the "us" he repeatedly spoke of earlier.

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nonaeroterraqueous said:

That's a very weak way to go about making an argument. When one considers the clear writing style used in this translation of Irenaeus, it would seem that dependence solely upon something as subtle as pronoun usage would be unforgivably deceptive, if that had been his intention.

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miknik5 said:

So according to dispensarionslists, the church will be raptured at a given time and included in that are all the saints at that present moment when the church is raptured (OT and NT believers up to that moment)

That rapture is, according to dispensationalists, the end of one period of dispensation (the church age)?

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