A-Mil Only How to interpret Matthew 24?

Isaiah Burridge said:

Christ just said that his coming would be immediately after the tribulation

Click to expand...

COOL!

Isaiah Burridge said:

he goes onto say he doesn't know when he's coming back.

Click to expand...

Yes!
=============================

=============================

Isaiah Burridge said:

(which blows the idea of a tribulation away since everyone is supposed to be living through hell on earth)

Click to expand...

What ?

Hi, my understanding is that the amillennialism relates to the position that the thousand years of Revelation do not reflect a temporal kingdom of the saints on earth.

I would describe my position about eschatology as premillennial preterist idealist - the Parousia of Jesus Christ occurred before the thousand years, and the thousand years transcend the limits of time and space.

The main people whose positions have influenced this, for me, are J S Russell (from the 19th century), Duncan McKenzie, and Todd Dennis.

At the bottom of this page The Pretzel Logic of "Orthodox" Partial Preterism - The Antichrist and the Second Coming, Duncan McKenzie gives an account of Matthew 24, as compared against 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, after which he writes:

I hope this is somewhat helpful to you in your studies/thinking, at least to give you some understanding of the premillennial preterist position (held by J S Russell and Duncan McKenzie) about how the Parousia and thousand years are supposed to fit together.
God bless!

Isaiah Burridge said:

In verse 30 he clearly seems to depict the second coming but he said that it would be immediately after the tribulation.

Click to expand...

You're right, the second coming happens at the end of the tribulation: "Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days.

Isaiah Burridge said:

It's clear in verse 36 that he's talking about the second coming because people are living normally like in the days of Noah (which blows the idea of a tribulation away since everyone is supposed to be living through hell on earth)

My issue is Christ just said that his coming would be immediately after the tribulation but then he goes onto say he doesn't know when he's coming back. They must be 2 separate events.

Click to expand...

They ARE 2 separate events. Matthew's Olivet is split into a few, five I think, sections of repetition and enlargement. Where you mention He: "goes onto say he doesn't know when he's coming back", is actually a few verses down at the start of another section. Jesus has backed up again and is talking about the start of "for then there will be great tribulation.

The tribulation has to begin within within a certain window. The days of Noah are in there for a reason. 370/371 days are not a big difference. No man can know that day or hour.

This is not talking about "immediately after the tribulation of those days. This is not talking about the thing we call the second coming. Because right after this Jesus goes on to describe the days BEFORE the flood started. The time PRIOR to the start of the 371 days of Noah.


So this "coming" of the Son of Man is the start of the tribulation, not the arrival of the Son of Man, it's like the day that the Son of Man is revealed from Luke 17 where fire falls from the sky, like on the day that Lot left out from Sodom. It's like: "in those days BEFORE the flood.

The coming of the Son of Man is a parade of apocalyptic events that will culminate at the 7th trumpet with the arrival of the Rider on the white horse. Matt. 24.36 is talking about the very first day of sudden destruction at the start of the great tribulation.

I read a type of a conflict of interest at play here. Christ is our High Priest, the intercessor for humanity that's standing in the way, in between fallen mankind and the Wrath of God. This is why only the Father can know the exact day and hour, because the minute that events begin, Hades will have authority over a fourth of the earth. Once the Father gives the nod and Jesus steps out of the way, it's going to be a mess, but the day that the white horse Rider arrives won't be a secret anymore.

Luke 21 was the morning of the Olivet discourse, Jesus was sitting INSIDE the temple in front of a crowd of people.

Matthew 24 was in the evening of that same day. Jesus had just finished a 25 minute hike with His disciples down the Kidron Valley and up to where He lodged on the mount called Olivet. Only four of His disciples came to Him PRIVATELY asking:

That's how I read it.
Welcome to the forum Isaiah.

Isaiah Burridge said:

Hello, I was raised a Dispensationalist but when I studied the Scriptures a few things destroyed the system for me.

1. Ezekiel 40 through 48 being literal is disgusting. Jesus was the final sacrifice and yes I've heard the memorial theory but that still doesn't justify animal sacrifices.

2. Every so called rapture passage can be beautifully harmonized with the second coming of Jesus at the end of the age. There's just no reason to split them and I found that the only reason I needed a rapture was because of my distinction between Israel and the church. Well that fell apart to and I can safely believe that the church is spiritual Israel.

Okay so here are my problem passages I am dealing with.

Matthew 24 clearly depicts the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D but a couple of things Jesus said throw me off. In verse 30 he clearly seems to depict the second coming but he said that it would be immediately after the tribulation. I've read that preterists believe this is describing a judgment on Israel and not a literal return but the language with the angels gathering the elect blows that up for me.

It's clear in verse 36 that he's talking about the second coming because people are living normally like in the days of Noah (which blows the idea of a tribulation away since everyone is supposed to be living through hell on earth)

My issue is Christ just said that his coming would be immediately after the tribulation but then he goes onto say he doesn't know when he's coming back. They must be 2 separate events. Can anyone give me some insight? Again, I am new to the system. So it's very hard to break away from my Dispensational roots. One day at a time.

Click to expand...

Using Luke's clear timeline to understand the timing of Matthew's Gospel should be helpful to you.



Olivet Timing Revealed by Luke’s Gospel:




Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple (These subtitles are found in e-Sword.)



Luk 21:5　 Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said,　

Luk 21:6　 "These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down."　

(Mat 24:2　 And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down."　)





Luk 21:7　 So they asked Him, saying, "Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?"　

(Mat 24:3　 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?")

(　Mar 13:3　 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately,　

Mar 13:4　 "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?")　





Luk 21:8　 And He said: "Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time has drawn near.' Therefore do not go after them.　

(Mat 24:5　 For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many.　)



Luk 21:9　 But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately."

(Mat 24:6　 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.)　



Jesus Foretells Wars and Persecution



Luk 21:10　 Then He said to them, "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.　

(Mat 24:7　 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.　)



Luk 21:11　 And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven.　

(Mat 24:7　 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.　)



Luk 21:12　 But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake.　

(Mat 24:9　 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.)　(Read Acts 22:19-20, where Paul reveals that he fulfilled this text.)



Luk 21:13　 But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony.　

Luk 21:14　 Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer;　

Luk 21:15　 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist.　

Luk 21:16　 You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death.　

Luk 21:17　 And you will be hated by all for My name's sake.　

(Mat 24:10　 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.　)



Luk 21:18　 But not a hair of your head shall be lost.　

Luk 21:19　 By your patience possess your souls.　

(Mat 24:13　 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.)　



Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem



Luk 21:20　 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.　

(Mat 24:15　 "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),　



Luk 21:21　 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.　

(Mat 24:16　 "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.)　



Luk 21:22　 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.　

Luk 21:23　 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.　

(Mat 24:19　 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!　)



Luk 21:24　 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.　
(Most Bible scholars agree that the first part of this verse is about 70 AD. The next five verses in this chapter reveal what happens when "the times of the Gentiles" comes to an end.)


The Coming of the Son of Man



Luk 21:25　 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;　

(Mat 24:29　 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.)　



Luk 21:26　 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.　

Luk 21:27　 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.　

(Mat 24:30　 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.)　



Luk 21:28　 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."　

(Mat 24:33　 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!)


:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::


From "Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus, Book 12, chapter 7

"6. When therefore the generals of Antiochus's armies had been beaten so often, Judas assembled the people together, and told them, that after these many victories which God had given them, they ought to go up to Jerusalem, and purify the temple, and offer the appointed sacrifices. But as soon as he, with the whole multitude, was come to Jerusalem, and found the temple deserted, and its gates burnt down, and plants growing in the temple of their own accord, on account of its desertion, he and those that were with him began to lament, and were quite confounded at the sight of the temple; so he chose out some of his soldiers, and gave them order to fight against those guards that were in the citadel, until he should have purified the temple. When therefore he had carefully purged it, and had brought in new vessels, the candlestick, the table [of shew-bread], and the altar [of incense], which were made of gold, he hung up the veils at the gates, and added doors to them. He also took down the altar [of burnt-offering], and built a new one of stones that he gathered together, and not of such as were hewn with iron tools. So on the five and twentieth day of the month Casleu, which the Macedonians call Apeliens, they lighted the lamps that were on the candlestick, and offered incense upon the altar [of incense], and laid the loaves upon the table [of shew-bread], and offered burnt-offerings upon the new altar [of burnt-offering]. Now it so fell out, that these things were done on the very same day on which their Divine worship had fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use, after three years' time; for so it was, that the temple was made desolate by Antiochus, and so continued for three years. This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apeliens, and on the hundred fifty and third olympiad: but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apeliens, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would dissolve that worship [for some time].

7. Now Judas celebrated the festival of the restoration of the sacrifices of the temple for eight days, and omitted no sort of pleasures thereon; but he feasted them upon very rich and splendid sacrifices; and he honored God, and delighted them by hymns and psalms. Nay, they were so very glad at the revival of their customs, when, after a long time of intermission, they unexpectedly had regained the freedom of their worship, that they made it a law for their posterity, that they should keep a festival, on account of the restoration of their temple worship, for eight days. And from that time to this we celebrate this festival, and call it Lights. I suppose the reason was, because this liberty beyond our hopes appeared to us; and that thence was the name given to that festival. Judas also rebuilt the walls round about the city, and reared towers of great height against the incursions of enemies, and set guards therein. He also fortified the city Bethsura, that it might serve as a citadel against any distresses that might come from our enemies. "


Josephus confirms above the understanding of the Jews of his time, who knew that Daniel had predicted the events of 167 BC, by Antiochus Epiphanes.
Josephus confirms it as a historical fact.
John 10:22 is a reference to the celebration of Hanukkah each year by the Jews of Jesus time.

In Matthew 24:15-16, Christ was telling the Jews of His time that something similar to 167 BC would happen again in 70 AD. The forces of Antiochus had attacked the city, killing thousands of Jews, and the sacrifices were stopped for a period of time. Luke's Gospel was written to more of a Gentile audience, so he spelled it out for them in Luke 21:20-21.

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

.

Isaiah Burridge said:

Hello, I was raised a Dispensationalist but when I studied the Scriptures a few things destroyed the system for me.

1. Ezekiel 40 through 48 being literal is disgusting. Jesus was the final sacrifice and yes I've heard the memorial theory but that still doesn't justify animal sacrifices.

2. Every so called rapture passage can be beautifully harmonized with the second coming of Jesus at the end of the age. There's just no reason to split them and I found that the only reason I needed a rapture was because of my distinction between Israel and the church. Well that fell apart to and I can safely believe that the church is spiritual Israel.

Click to expand...

The Rapture is not the Second Coming, the Sacrifices are by a Nation that doesn't believe their Messiah has come yet, so whether you can understand the wheres and whys are irrelevant, only when Israel understands who Jesus is does it matter. Then Israel will of course stop the Sacrifices. Paul in Romans 9-11 talks about the Church and Israel as separate entities over and over and over.

Isaiah Burridge said:

Okay so here are my problem passages I am dealing with.

Matthew 24 clearly depicts the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D but a couple of things Jesus said throw me off. In verse 30 he clearly seems to depict the second coming but he said that it would be immediately after the tribulation. I've read that preterists believe this is describing a judgment on Israel and not a literal return but the language with the angels gathering the elect blows that up for me.

It's clear in verse 36 that he's talking about the second coming because people are living normally like in the days of Noah (which blows the idea of a tribulation away since everyone is supposed to be living through hell on earth)

My issue is Christ just said that his coming would be immediately after the tribulation but then he goes onto say he doesn't know when he's coming back. They must be 2 separate events. Can anyone give me some insight? Again, I am new to the system. So it's very hard to break away from my Dispensational roots. One day at a time.

Click to expand...

You have it all backwards brother. REMEMBER, there are really no verses and chapters. I would put Mathew 24:36-51 with Matthew 25. Even if you keep it with Matthew 24, only Paul was given the Rapture understanding as he was the Disciple to the Gentiles. Matthew 36 is describing the Rapture, not the Second Coming. Think about it like this, if this was the Second Coming (and its not, your thinking is right, there is NO TRIBULATION before this event, but your thinking goes off in the wrong direction) then there would be no marrying, partying, as in the days of Noah before the flood. There would be men running from Gods wrath, hiding, not acting as in the days of Noah, they would know and understand they are in Gods Wrath or the Tribulation period. So Matthew places it before Matthew 25, the Five Foolish Virgins and the 5 Wise Virgins or he just thought it was a part of the Second Coming by not understanding it.

The Tribulation in Mathew 24 is VERY CLEAR Brother. It starts in Matthew 24:15 and goes all the way to Matthew 24:29-31. The Abomination of Desolation is the Anti-Christ conquering Jerusalem and defiling the Temple. Israel flees, and in Matthew 24:21-22 we see Jesus says this will be the GREATEST TRIBULATION of all time. So its right there in front of you brother.

Matthew 24:1-6 is the Period from Jesus to AD 70

Matthew 24:7-14 is the 2000 some odd year period between the AD 70 Event and the Rapture.

Matthew 24:36-51 is the Rapture

Matthew 24:15-28 is the Tribulation Period

Matthew 24:29-31 is the Second Coming

Matthew 24:32-35 is the Parable of the Fig Tree basically telling us all the Signs we must see before the Second Coming happens.

Isaiah, "Revealing Times" has chronic problems with eyesight and comprehension, evidenced by his inability to recognize and respect the "A-Mil Only" label. You can safely disregard anything he has to say.

jgr said:

Isaiah, "Revealing Times" has chronic problems with eyesight and comprehension, evidenced by his inability to recognize and respect the "A-Mil Only" label. You can safely disregard anything he has to say.

Click to expand...

You are right I didn't see it, of course I will stay out and let you guys have at it. You need a safe place against my ideas. Carry on.

Just to make a point of clarification if it is needed premillennialists can and do believe in the Rapture happening on the day of the second coming of Christ..

Adstar said:

Just to make a point of clarification if it is needed premillennialists can and do believe in the Rapture happening on the day of the second coming of Christ..

Click to expand...

Correct; historic/classic premillennialism did and does reject the pretrib rapture. Dispensational premillennialism is the outlier.

This is an excellent article on Amill Eschatology.

"Amillennialism: A Brief Sketch of Amillennial Eschatology" by Anthony Hoekema


.