Sin is Lawlessness

Jan001 said:

Peter is writing about the people at the time of Noah who repented of their evil while they were drowning. The one thief on the cross repented of his sins and he was even promised heaven that very day because he defended Jesus to the other thief. These people in the time of Noah also repented of their evil, but they were sent to prison/purgatory in Hades. They were there in the prison part of Hades because they had not yet been purified completely of their attachments to sin (they were still reaping what they had sown about two thousand years earlier). Matthew 5:21-26, 1 Corinthians 3:15

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I'm looking at your scripture references Matthew 5:21-26 and 1 Corinithians 3:15 and they have nothing to do with the text above.

So do you have scripture?

pescador said:

1stcenturylady and ToBeLoved, have you ever heard of having a private conversation? Your posts have absolutely nothing to do with the posts's topic. Nobody cares what you bought on eBay or that one of you has a birthday.

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So you wrote three sentences to chastise me for writing a one sentence "Happy Birthday"? lol.

I'm sure that somehow makes sense to you.

Now what does your post have to do with the thread's topic? Pot calling the kettle black.

ToBeLoved said:

I'm looking at your scripture references Matthew 5:21-26 and 1 Corinithians 3:15 and they have nothing to do with the text above.

So do you have scripture?

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In order to enter into heaven after we die, we must first be made perfect.

Matthew 5:48
You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. rsv

1 Peter 1:14-16
As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, 15 but as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; 16 since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.” rsv

If we become slaves of God (obedient to His commandments) we can be made perfect.

Romans 6:22
But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life. rsv

Matthew 5:21-26
You have heard that it was said to the men of old, ‘You shall not kill; and whoever kills shall be liable to judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be liable to the hell of fire. 23 So if you are offering your gift at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; 26 truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny. rsv


The Sanhedrin council had the authority to put a person in prison until his debts to society were paid in full. Jesus is telling us that we also will be put into prison until all our debts to His justice are paid. Galatians 6:7

Every sin that we commit harms us and others. When we repent of our sins, we are forgiven, but we still have to repay our debts that our sins have reaped in order to be approved to enter into eternal life. It is possible for Christians to repay many or all of these sin debts while they are on earth, but most people do not do this and so they must be purified/repay these debts after they die through the consuming fire of God before they can be admitted into heaven. Acts 10:3-4, Acts 24:16-18, Matthew 6:16-19, Tobit 12:8-10

Ezekiel 33:14-16
Again, though I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die (be condemned to hell/second death),’ yet if he turns from his sin and does what is lawful and right, 15 if the wicked restores the pledge, gives back what he has taken by robbery, and walks in the statutes of life, committing no iniquity; he shall surely live (inherit eternal life), he shall not die (be condemned to hell/second death). 16 None of the sins that he has committed shall be remembered against him; he has done what is lawful and right, he shall surely live (inherit eternal life). rsv

God is a consuming fire and after death, this fire consumes all the just/righteous person's impurities so that his sanctification can be completed. This purification is not instantaneous. Jesus tells us that this state/place is a prison and this is where a person pays what he still owes to divine justice to heal the harm he has caused to others and to himself. He must be made perfect before he can be approved to enter into heaven. Some religions call this state/place of purification "purgatory" because this is where a person's sins are “purged” away by the consuming fire of God.

Hebrews 12:28-29
Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe; 29 for our God is a consuming fire. rsv

1 Corinthians 3
15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. rsv

After Jesus died, He went to preach to these persons’ spirits who were in this prison. 1 Peter 3:19

The spirits of the just men who have been made perfect by fire are living right now in heaven with God.

Hebrews 12:22-23
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem (HEAVEN), and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, 23 and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

1stcenturylady said:

I looked that up and the description doesn't match.

Here is what I bought on ebay.

Piperine 95% Black Pepper Extract Powder 95% By HPLC Bioavailability Enhancer

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Thank you.

Jan001 said:

Thank you.

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Did the site come up for you?

Jan001 said:

In order to enter into heaven after we die, we must first be made perfect.

Matthew 5:48
You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. rsv

1 Peter 1:14-16
As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, 15 but as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; 16 since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.” rsv

If we become slaves of God (obedient to His commandments) we can be made perfect.

Romans 6:22
But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life. rsv

Matthew 5:21-26
You have heard that it was said to the men of old, ‘You shall not kill; and whoever kills shall be liable to judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be liable to the hell of fire. 23 So if you are offering your gift at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; 26 truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny. rsv


The Sanhedrin council had the authority to put a person in prison until his debts to society were paid in full. Jesus is telling us that we also will be put into prison until all our debts to His justice are paid. Galatians 6:7

Every sin that we commit harms us and others. When we repent of our sins, we are forgiven, but we still have to repay our debts that our sins have reaped in order to be approved to enter into eternal life. It is possible for Christians to repay many or all of these sin debts while they are on earth, but most people do not do this and so they must be purified/repay these debts after they die through the consuming fire of God before they can be admitted into heaven. Acts 10:3-4, Acts 24:16-18, Matthew 6:16-19, Tobit 12:8-10

Ezekiel 33:14-16
Again, though I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die (be condemned to hell/second death),’ yet if he turns from his sin and does what is lawful and right, 15 if the wicked restores the pledge, gives back what he has taken by robbery, and walks in the statutes of life, committing no iniquity; he shall surely live (inherit eternal life), he shall not die (be condemned to hell/second death). 16 None of the sins that he has committed shall be remembered against him; he has done what is lawful and right, he shall surely live (inherit eternal life). rsv

God is a consuming fire and after death, this fire consumes all the just/righteous person's impurities so that his sanctification can be completed. This purification is not instantaneous. Jesus tells us that this state/place is a prison and this is where a person pays what he still owes to divine justice to heal the harm he has caused to others and to himself. He must be made perfect before he can be approved to enter into heaven. Some religions call this state/place of purification "purgatory" because this is where a person's sins are “purged” away by the consuming fire of God.

Hebrews 12:28-29
Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe; 29 for our God is a consuming fire. rsv

1 Corinthians 3
15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. rsv

After Jesus died, He went to preach to these persons’ spirits who were in this prison. 1 Peter 3:19

The spirits of the just men who have been made perfect by fire are living right now in heaven with God.

Hebrews 12:22-23
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem (HEAVEN), and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, 23 and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

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We have already been given perfection/justification by Christ.

ToBeLoved said:

We have already been given perfection/justification by Christ.

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Hi sis, I think you may be confusing perfection with the gift of Christ's righteousness. And even that righteousness is perfected along the journey. "For he who practices righteousness, is righteous."

Paul:
"Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me." Philippians 3:12

Perfection has to do with sanctification which is the process of overcoming the flesh and practicing righteousness, not justification, the initial forgiveness and cleansing from sin.

We actually see the progression of perfection in Paul's life through things he has said, first in Philippians above, and now his last letter to Timothy.

For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.

pescador said:

1stcenturylady and ToBeLoved, have you ever heard of having a private conversation? Your posts have absolutely nothing to do with the posts's topic. Nobody cares.....

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Wrong. The good news about healthy items not generally known by doctors , or at least not often talked about with their customers,
is more important to everyone
than the post's topic is; and only takes a few posts to elaborate for everyone who does care and want to know! The information is VERY WELCOME !

1stcenturylady said:

Did the site come up for you?

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Yes.

ToBeLoved said:

We have already been given perfection/justification by Christ.

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We have been justified/given right relationship with God through Jesus Christ, but perfection is a life-long process. Perfection is usually attained through suffering.

We will not see God until after we have been made perfect/pure in heart.

Isaiah's lips had to be purified/cleansed before he could speak for God.


Peter teaches us how to be made worthy to inherit eternal life.

Jan001 said:

We have been justified/given right relationship with God through Jesus Christ, but perfection is a life-long process. Perfection is usually attained through suffering.

Romans 12:2
Do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may prove what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect. rsv

2 Corinthians 7:1
Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God. rsv

Philippians 3:8-14
Indeed I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as refuse, in order that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own, based on law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith; 10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 that if possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead. 12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. 13 Brethren, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but one thing I do, forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. rsv

Romans 5:2-5
Through him we have obtained access to this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in our hope of sharing the glory of God. 3 More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 5 and hope does not disappoint us, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit which has been given to us. rsv

Romans 8:16-17
it is the Spirit himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him. rsv

Philippians 1:29
For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake, rsv

2 Thessalonians 1:5
This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be made worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering— rsv

Revelation 3:2
Awake, and strengthen what remains and is on the point of death, for I have not found your works perfect in the sight of my God. rsv


​

We will not see God until after we have been made perfect/pure in heart.

Matthew 5:48
You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. rsv

Matthew 5:8
“Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. rsv


​

Isaiah's lips had to be purified/cleansed before he could speak for God.

Isaiah 6:1-8
In the year that King Uzzi′ah died I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and his train filled the temple. 2 Above him stood the seraphim; each had six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. 3 And one called to another and said:
“Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts;
the whole earth is full of his glory.”
4 And the foundations of the thresholds shook at the voice of him who called, and the house was filled with smoke. 5 And I said: “Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts!”
6 Then flew one of the seraphim to me, having in his hand a burning coal which he had taken with tongs from the altar. 7 And he touched my mouth, and said: “Behold, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away, and your sin forgiven.” 8 And I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?” Then I said, “Here am I! Send me.” rsv
​

Peter teaches us how to be made worthy to inherit eternal life.

2 Peter 1:3-11
His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, 4 by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, that through these you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature. 5 For this very reason make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For whoever lacks these things is blind and shortsighted and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. 10 Therefore, brethren, be the more zealous to confirm your call and election, for if you do this you will never fall; 11 so there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. rsv​

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I don't know how you came up with this doctrine. God does not want his children to suffer. If he did, he would be a sadistic father.

The suffering mentioned in the New Testament comes from people outside of the faith who wanted to persecute people of "The Way" because their faith and values differed from what was the norm.

It would be really, really bizarre to think of Christianity as some cult that requires (or at least encourages) suffering. It is the exact opposite of rejoicing in God our Savior.

We are made perfect because God makes us perfect. He loves us and sent his son to suffer and die for us.

If you want to bring suffering on yourself, be my guest, but don't lay that on the rest of us.

pescador said:

I don't know how you came up with this doctrine. God does not want his children to suffer. If he did, he would be a sadistic father.

The suffering mentioned in the New Testament comes from people outside of the faith who wanted to persecute people of "The Way" because their faith and values differed from what was the norm.

It would be really, really bizarre to think of Christianity as some cult that requires (or at least encourages) suffering. It is the exact opposite of rejoicing in God our Savior.

We are made perfect because God makes us perfect. He loves us and sent his son to suffer and die for us.

If you want to bring suffering on yourself, be my guest, but don't lay that on the rest of us.

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I know my own relationship with God was perfected through suffering. Sometimes our sins catch up with us, and when they do and a drastic change happens for the better in our resolve to learn our lesson, then the scripture is true - "Jesus learned obedience through suffering." I know I did.

pescador said:

I don't know how you came up with this doctrine. God does not want his children to suffer. If he did, he would be a sadistic father.

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It took the excruciating suffering and death of God's only begotten Son Jesus Christ to redeem us from Adam's sin in order to make it possible for any of us to inherit eternal life.

Is the Lord sadistic because He allows both His only begotten Son and His adopted son Paul to suffer terrible persecutions and martyrdom for the sake of His name?

The suffering mentioned in the New Testament comes from people outside of the faith who wanted to persecute people of "The Way" because their faith and values differed from what was the norm.

Click to expand...

The people of "the Way" were the people who actually suffered, not the people who were persecuting them. God allowed this to happen to His faithful children. Does this make Him a sadistic Father?

It would be really, really bizarre to think of Christianity as some cult that requires (or at least encourages) suffering. It is the exact opposite of rejoicing in God our Savior.

Click to expand...

We are to rejoice in God our Savior while we are suffering, knowing that if we persevere in the faith of Jesus Christ until death, even death by martyrdom if willed by God, we will then be happy with God our Savior in the heavenly Jerusalem for ever and ever.

We are made perfect because God makes us perfect. He loves us and sent his son to suffer and die for us.

Click to expand...

Perfection is a life-long process. God makes us perfect while we listen to and obey His Holy Spirit. If we do this (listen to and obey His Holy Spirit) until we die, He will then approve us to inherit eternal life.

I believe that God the Father is both a merciful and just Father of all mankind. We all will reap what we have sown. Galatians 6:7-8 If we repent of our disobedience to His commandments before we die, we will be forgiven; but we will still have to repay the damages we have caused to others and to ourselves, either while we are still in this life on earth or else in the age to come (after our physical death). 1 John 1:9, Matthew 5:25-26, Ezekiel 33:12-20, 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 , Matthew 12:32

If you want to bring suffering on yourself, be my guest, but don't lay that on the rest of us.

Click to expand...

Suffering is part of the Christian life. If we remain faithful/obedient to God's commandments, whatever our trials/tests consist of until our death, we will then be approved to receive the crown of eternal life.

Some Christians are faithful/obedient to God's commandments only for a while. These Christians will not be approved to inherit the crown of eternal life. Some Christians will not do the good works that the Father had prepared for them to do. These Christians will not be approved to inherit the crown of eternal life. Ephesians 2:8-10, Matthew 25:41-46

Jan001 said:

Hebrews 2:10
For it was fitting that he (God), for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the pioneer (Jesus) of their salvation perfect through suffering. rsv​

It took the excruciating suffering and death of God's only begotten Son Jesus Christ to redeem us from Adam's sin in order to make it possible for any of us to inherit eternal life.

Philippians 2:8
And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross. rsv

Acts 9:15-17
But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he (Saul, Paul) is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel; 16 for I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name.” 17 So Anani′as departed and entered the house. And laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came, has sent me that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.”
​

Is the Lord sadistic because He allows both His only begotten Son and His adopted son Paul to suffer terrible persecutions and martyrdom for the sake of His name?



The people of "the Way" were the people who actually suffered, not the people who were persecuting them. God allowed this to happen to His faithful children. Does this make Him a sadistic Father?

Acts 8:3
But Saul was ravaging the church, and entering house after house, he dragged off men and women and committed them to prison. rsv

Matthew 10:17-19
Beware of men; for they will deliver you up to councils, and flog you in their synagogues, 18 and you will be dragged before governors and kings for my sake, to bear testimony before them and the Gentiles. 19 When they deliver you up, do not be anxious how you are to speak or what you are to say; for what you are to say will be given to you in that hour; rsv
​

We are to rejoice in God our Savior while we are suffering, knowing that if we persevere in the faith of Jesus Christ until death, even death by martyrdom if willed by God, we will then be happy with God our Savior in the heavenly Jerusalem for ever and ever.

Acts 14:21-23
When they had preached the gospel to that city and had made many disciples, they returned to Lystra and to Ico′nium and to Antioch, 22 strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying that through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God. 23 And when they had appointed elders for them in every church, with prayer and fasting, they committed them to the Lord in whom they believed. rsv

Luke 6:22-23
Blessed are you when men hate you, and when they exclude you and revile you, and cast out your name as evil, on account of the Son of man! 23 Rejoice in that day, and leap for joy, for behold, your reward is great in heaven; for so their fathers did to the prophets. rsv​

Perfection is a life-long process. God makes us perfect while we listen to and obey His Holy Spirit. If we do this (listen to and obey His Holy Spirit) until we die, He will then approve us to inherit eternal life.

Philippians 3:12
Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. rsv

Romans 6:15-18
What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to any one as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. rsv
​

I believe that God the Father is both a merciful and just Father of all mankind. We all will reap what we have sown. Galatians 6:7-8 If we repent of our disobedience to His commandments before we die, we will be forgiven; but we will still have to repay the damages we have caused to others and to ourselves, either while we are still in this life on earth or else in the age to come (after our physical death). 1 John 1:9, Matthew 5:25-26, Ezekiel 33:12-20, 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 , Matthew 12:32



Suffering is part of the Christian life. If we remain faithful/obedient to God's commandments, whatever our trials/tests consist of until our death, we will then be approved to receive the crown of eternal life.

Revelation 2:10
Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life. rsv
​

Some Christians are faithful/obedient to God's commandments only for a while. These Christians will not be approved to inherit the crown of eternal life. Some Christians will not do the good works that the Father had prepared for them to do. These Christians will not be approved to inherit the crown of eternal life. Ephesians 2:8-10, Matthew 25:41-46

Luke 8:13
And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy; but these have no root, they believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. rsv

Mark 4:18-19
And others are the ones sown among thorns; they are those who hear the word, 19 but the cares of the world, and the delight in riches, and the desire for other things, enter in and choke the word, and it proves unfruitful. rsv
​

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Hi sis, I love your posts. I can sense the Holy Spirit all over them.

Jan001 said:

In order to enter into heaven after we die, we must first be made perfect.

Matthew 5:48
You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. rsv

1 Peter 1:14-16
As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, 15 but as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; 16 since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.” rsv

If we become slaves of God (obedient to His commandments) we can be made perfect.

Romans 6:22
But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life. rsv

Matthew 5:21-26
You have heard that it was said to the men of old, ‘You shall not kill; and whoever kills shall be liable to judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be liable to the hell of fire. 23 So if you are offering your gift at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; 26 truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny. rsv


The Sanhedrin council had the authority to put a person in prison until his debts to society were paid in full. Jesus is telling us that we also will be put into prison until all our debts to His justice are paid. Galatians 6:7

Every sin that we commit harms us and others. When we repent of our sins, we are forgiven, but we still have to repay our debts that our sins have reaped in order to be approved to enter into eternal life. It is possible for Christians to repay many or all of these sin debts while they are on earth, but most people do not do this and so they must be purified/repay these debts after they die through the consuming fire of God before they can be admitted into heaven. Acts 10:3-4, Acts 24:16-18, Matthew 6:16-19, Tobit 12:8-10

Ezekiel 33:14-16
Again, though I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die (be condemned to hell/second death),’ yet if he turns from his sin and does what is lawful and right, 15 if the wicked restores the pledge, gives back what he has taken by robbery, and walks in the statutes of life, committing no iniquity; he shall surely live (inherit eternal life), he shall not die (be condemned to hell/second death). 16 None of the sins that he has committed shall be remembered against him; he has done what is lawful and right, he shall surely live (inherit eternal life). rsv

God is a consuming fire and after death, this fire consumes all the just/righteous person's impurities so that his sanctification can be completed. This purification is not instantaneous. Jesus tells us that this state/place is a prison and this is where a person pays what he still owes to divine justice to heal the harm he has caused to others and to himself. He must be made perfect before he can be approved to enter into heaven. Some religions call this state/place of purification "purgatory" because this is where a person's sins are “purged” away by the consuming fire of God.

Hebrews 12:28-29
Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe; 29 for our God is a consuming fire. rsv

1 Corinthians 3
15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. rsv

After Jesus died, He went to preach to these persons’ spirits who were in this prison. 1 Peter 3:19

The spirits of the just men who have been made perfect by fire are living right now in heaven with God.

Hebrews 12:22-23
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem (HEAVEN), and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, 23 and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

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What does the NKJv say. RSV I don't like so much

ToBeLoved said:

What does the NKJv say. RSV I don't like so much

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Hi sis, I thought it was interesting having never read that version, and worth seeing if other scripture could corroborate. From what I found that is certainly the goal. No one should be apathetic towards sinning, once we have been set free of it. But more importantly, and key, as Jesus said to the rich young ruler who kept the law, if he wanted to be perfect to sell his possessions and give it to the poor. Wow! That should give all of us pause!

And looking at Acts, that is just what they did. (Remember Ananias and Saphira? They didn't have to sell everything, but they were both filled with false humility and selfishness, and worse, lied. No liars will be in heaven.)

1stcenturylady said:

Hi sis, I thought it was interesting having never read that version, and worth seeing if other scripture could corroborate. From what I found that is certainly the goal. No one should be apathetic towards sinning, once we have been set free of it. But more importantly, and key, as Jesus said to the rich young ruler who kept the law, if he wanted to be perfect to sell his possessions and give it to the poor. Wow! That should give all of us pause!

And looking at Acts, that is just what they did. (Remember Ananias and Saphira? They didn't have to sell everything, but they were both filled with false humility and selfishness, and worse, lied. No liars will be in heaven.)

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The rich young ruler was living under the Old Covenant (Mosaic Law) and definitely not a Christian. Once the New Covenant was put into effect by Jesus' blood nothing more needs to be done. We are already perfect.

If Jesus said to the rich young ruler who kept the law that if he wanted to be perfect to sell his possessions and give it to the poor, was he lying? Jesus didn't say if the young ruler sold his possessions and gave them to the poor, he would be starting on the road to becoming perfect.

pescador said:

The rich young ruler was living under the Old Covenant (Mosaic Law) and definitely not a Christian. Once the New Covenant was put into effect by Jesus' blood nothing more needs to be done. We are already perfect.

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Wrong. You are now on the road to perfection.


Philippians 3:12
[ Pressing Toward the Goal ] Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.

Colossians 1:28
Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:14
But above all these things put on love, which is the bond of perfection.

Colossians 4:12
Epaphras, who is one of you, a bondservant of Christ, greets you, always laboring fervently for you in prayers, that you may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.

1stcenturylady said:

Wrong. You are now on the road to perfection.


Philippians 3:12
[ Pressing Toward the Goal ] Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.

Colossians 1:28
Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:14
But above all these things put on love, which is the bond of perfection.

Colossians 4:12
Epaphras, who is one of you, a bondservant of Christ, greets you, always laboring fervently for you in prayers, that you may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.

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I am already perfect, i.e., sinless, in God's eyes, because I live in Christ. "For by one offering he has perfected [past tense] for all time those who are made holy."

In context, "But when this priest [Jesus] had offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, he sat down at the right hand of God, where he is now waiting until his enemies are made a footstool for his feet. For by one offering he has perfected for all time those who are made holy. And the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us, for after saying, “This is the covenant that I will establish with them after those days, says the Lord. I will put my laws on their hearts and I will inscribe them on their minds,” then he says, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no longer.” Now where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin."

There is nothing more that I need to do, otherwise Jesus' sacrifice was incomplete.

pescador said:

I am already perfect, i.e., sinless, in God's eyes, because I live in Christ. "For by one offering he has perfected for all time those who are made holy."

In context, "But when this priest [Jesus] had offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, he sat down at the right hand of God, where he is now waiting until his enemies are made a footstool for his feet. For by one offering he has perfected for all time those who are made holy. And the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us, for after saying, “This is the covenant that I will establish with them after those days, says the Lord. I will put my laws on their hearts and I will inscribe them on their minds,” then he says, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no longer.” Now where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin."

There is nothing more that I need to do, otherwise Jesus' sacrifice was incomplete.

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If you willfully sin, are you still sinless?