Women Pastors part 2

Archivist · Jul 14, 2017

marineimaging said:
Grown men should know the scriptures well enough to know what to do. You can be assured that when I am sitting in a church building where a woman calls herself a preacher and she gets up to speak, the Spirit in me knows it is wrong and I will leave.

This grown man knows what to do, show the pastor some respect and remain for the service. If you want to get up and leave that is your business. Sad, you might miss something you were supposed to hear.

Victory-N-Christ · Jul 14, 2017

marineimaging said:
Grown men should know the scriptures well enough to know what to do. You can be assured that when I am sitting in a church building where a woman calls herself a preacher and she gets up to speak, the Spirit in me knows it is wrong and I will leave.

It's certainly your choice to leave. But when you say " where a woman *calls herself* a preacher". I have to disagree and say that it's God that does the calling or choosing and most times a church official will ordain women.I'm not sure how that works but we make our mistakes when we focus on the "vessel" and disregard the Creator who can use any "vessel" to further His works.But yes it's your choice to leave a church with a female pastor.

Victory-N-Christ · Jul 14, 2017

Archivist said:
This grown man knows what to do, show the pastor some respect and remain for the service. If you want to get up and leave that is your business. Sad, you might miss something you were supposed to hear.

Amen!!

Aelialicinia · Jul 14, 2017

Paidiske said:
It's the way of the Orthodox church. That's not precisely the same thing.

The Orthodox Church is the one holy and apostolic church and has never changed or separated from any other sect. It is The Universal Christian Church.

Aelialicinia · Jul 14, 2017

Archivist said:
No, Jesus never said anything about women pastors.

Aelialicinia · Jul 14, 2017

God took the form of a man when by the power of His Holy Spirit He was born of the Virgin Mary, the Theotokos. That is the answer. Only a man can be ordained as a deacon, priest or bishop because Jesus the perfect Man chose only men to be His disciples and apostles. God made that choice. God can do and will do what He wants to do.

Philip_B · Jul 14, 2017

Aelialicinia said:
God made that choice. God can do and will do what He wants to do.

she may

Paidiske · Jul 15, 2017

Aelialicinia said:
The Orthodox Church is the one holy and apostolic church and has never changed or separated from any other sect. It is The Universal Christian Church.

The universal Church consists of all the baptised. It cannot be limited to any one institution, no matter what claims those institutions like to make for themselves.

Aelialicinia said:
God took the form of a man when by the power of His Holy Spirit He was born of the Virgin Mary, the Theotokos. That is the answer. Only a man can be ordained as a deacon, priest or bishop because Jesus the perfect Man chose only men to be His disciples and apostles. God made that choice. God can do and will do what He wants to do.

Except he had women disciples...

Strong in Him · Jul 15, 2017

Aelialicinia said:
Only a man can be ordained as a deacon, priest or bishop because Jesus the perfect Man chose only men to be His disciples and apostles.

He chose only Jews as well.
Yet today there are uncircumcised, Gentile men in the priesthood.

Anyway, as Paidisk says; there were women disciples - who supported Jesus financially, and followed him all the way to the cross. They were also the first witnesses to his resurrection.

CGL1023 · Jul 15, 2017

Sheep4Christ said:
If women Pastors are only allowed to teach other women and children should they ask grown men to leave ? Why do men follow women Pastors anyway? Should the men be blamed for allowing a woman to teach them scripture and usurp male authority as church leaders? If this thread doesn't go in this forum could the mods please move it?

What scripture(s) inspire these questions?

NeedyFollower · Jul 21, 2017

Paidiske said:
The universal Church consists of all the baptised. It cannot be limited to any one institution, no matter what claims those institutions like to make for themselves.

Except he had women disciples...

Hi Sister ..I believe as I trust that you do, that God is sovereign and does what suits Him, what is according to His will as His Son also demonstrated. What is a pastor ? Someone who preaches a sermon on Sunday .. who has passed their courses in seminary ? Many are called but few are chosen ..this is of course disciples ..not pastors . To some He gave apostle , evangelist , pastors and teachers for the perfecting of the saints ...etc. Considering the days when this was written , Jesus said to count the cost before following Him . It was a huge cost to follow Christ and all were expected to go through the fire ..the trials that were to try them ...you know , as gold is tried ..that was one of the qualification of " not being a novice " someone who faithfully guided their household during the trials of their faith ..It was not the cost of tuition ..it was not the cost of raising a family while studying ...it was " I may die for Christ " Did Paul pay a cost in order to be a faithful witness of Jesus , to plant churches , to direct them while still earning his own keep ? Loss of all things ? Persecutions , afflictions , shipwreck .." At my first answer no man stood with me " both Jews and Gentile converts did not understand Paul but the Lord was faithful ...He suffered all things for the elect's sake that some might be saved ...that means you and me if you are a gentile like myself. We shall meet the saints one day ..both men and women who suffered the loss of all things for the sake of the gospel ..those who were submitted to the will of God. Deborah was called specifically but not to set a precedent since in the new covenant none of us are called to war but to be harmless as doves. The Lord showed Paul all of the things he would suffer and he was only able by the Spirit that worked in him. We are all members one of another but I fear that many men are not submitted to God because they are afraid of losing their wives and many women are not submitted to their husbands because they are in rebellion and/or think submission not worthy of them .

I do not want to hold Paul up to be anything and I am sure he would not anyone to glory in him but I do believe he demonstrated the authority he was given ....if we speak against the wisdom given to him, are we not speaking against the GIVER ? How bold are the armchair teachers in our day ...do we not fear ?
Should women be pastors ? No, they should not ...any more than an eye should not be an ear or a foot a nose. Men should not give birth . The moon and the sun should not trade places though they both be equally important for life ... The older women should teach the younger women to love their husbands ..to love their children ... This is what God has ordained and I see the wisdom in it ..I wish it were important in these days but these days parents wished to be loved by their children That is why Paul says that woman came from man but man is from a woman Apparently before the return of Christ , there will come a great falling away aka rebellion and this from the church. Man's rights ( and women's ) will be more important than God's will and the church will not care if the word of God is blasphemed. Money will be so important that people will give their children to strangers to raise so they can pursue their careers ...and they will do this willingly ...often times actually paying people to watch their children . This is called the loss of natural affection described in 2nd timothy chapter 3 . Take a look at the first three chapters of Isiah . History repeats itself because God's word is true.

Archivist · Jul 21, 2017

NeedyFollower said:
Hi Sister ..I believe as I trust that you do, that God is sovereign and does what suits Him, what is according to His will as His Son also demonstrated. What is a pastor ? Someone who preaches a sermon on Sunday .. who has passed their courses in seminary ? Many are called but few are chosen ..this is of course disciples ..not pastors . To some He gave apostle , evangelist , pastors and teachers for the perfecting of the saints ...etc. Considering the days when this was written , Jesus said to count the cost before following Him . It was a huge cost to follow Christ and all were expected to go through the fire ..the trials that were to try them ...you know , as gold is tried ..that was one of the qualification of " not being a novice " someone who faithfully guided their household during the trials of their faith ..It was not the cost of tuition ..it was not the cost of raising a family while studying ...it was " I may die for Christ " Did Paul pay a cost in order to be a faithful witness of Jesus , to plant churches , to direct them while still earning his own keep ? Loss of all things ? Persecutions , afflictions , shipwreck .." At my first answer no man stood with me " both Jews and Gentile converts did not understand Paul but the Lord was faithful ...He suffered all things for the elect's sake that some might be saved ...that means you and me if you are a gentile like myself. We shall meet the saints one day ..both men and women who suffered the loss of all things for the sake of the gospel ..those who were submitted to the will of God. Deborah was called specifically but not to set a precedent since in the new covenant none of us are called to war but to be harmless as doves. The Lord showed Paul all of the things he would suffer and he was only able by the Spirit that worked in him. We are all members one of another but I fear that many men are not submitted to God because they are afraid of losing their wives and many women are not submitted to their husbands because they are in rebellion and/or think submission not worthy of them .

I do not want to hold Paul up to be anything and I am sure he would not anyone to glory in him but I do believe he demonstrated the authority he was given ....if we speak against the wisdom given to him, are we not speaking against the GIVER ? How bold are the armchair teachers in our day ...do we not fear ?
Should women be pastors ? No, they should not ...any more than an eye should not be an ear or a foot a nose. Men should not give birth . The moon and the sun should not trade places though they both be equally important for life ... The older women should teach the younger women to love their husbands ..to love their children ... This is what God has ordained and I see the wisdom in it ..I wish it were important in these days but these days parents wished to be loved by their children That is why Paul says that woman came from man but man is from a woman Apparently before the return of Christ , there will come a great falling away aka rebellion and this from the church. Man's rights ( and women's ) will be more important than God's will and the church will not care if the word of God is blasphemed. Money will be so important that people will give their children to strangers to raise so they can pursue their careers ...and they will do this willingly ...often times actually paying people to watch their children . This is called the loss of natural affection described in 2nd timothy chapter 3 . Take a look at the first three chapters of Isiah . History repeats itself because God's word is true.

But those of us who believe that both men and women should be eligible to serve as pastors are not speaking against the wisdom given to Paul. We are simply pointing out that Paul was addressing a specific situation at a specific time. Elsewhere scripture tells us of women who did serve in leadership roles. Mary Magdalene was the first person to preach the Good News of the risen Christ. Junia was an apostle. Phoebe is named as a deacon. And before you say that none of them are listed as having been pastors, the fact is that the modern office of pastor did not exist at the time.

You are, of course, entitled to your own interpretation of scripture.

Paidiske · Jul 21, 2017

NeedyFollower said:
Should women be pastors ? No, they should not ...any more than an eye should not be an ear or a foot a nose. Men should not give birth . The moon and the sun should not trade places though they both be equally important for life ... The older women should teach the younger women to love their husbands ..to love their children ... This is what God has ordained and I see the wisdom in it ..I wish it were important in these days but these days parents wished to be loved by their children That is why Paul says that woman came from man but man is from a woman Apparently before the return of Christ , there will come a great falling away aka rebellion and this from the church. Man's rights ( and women's ) will be more important than God's will and the church will not care if the word of God is blasphemed. Money will be so important that people will give their children to strangers to raise so they can pursue their careers ...and they will do this willingly ...often times actually paying people to watch their children . This is called the loss of natural affection described in 2nd timothy chapter 3 . Take a look at the first three chapters of Isiah . History repeats itself because God's word is true.

As well as agreeing with Archivist's post directly above, I think this needs a fuller treatment.

Working isn't mutually exclusive with loving one's husband and children. I love my husband and child and manage to work. And, as I think I said in this thread, or certainly in other threads, women have always worked; the difference now, post-industrial-revolution, is that our work and our homes have in most cases become physically separated. But that's why many women (and increasingly men also) choose forms of work which allow them to work from home, integrating their working lives with their domestic responsibilities.

And from what I can observe, talking to many working mothers, the primary drive for working isn't money. I mean, yes, it's good to be paid for one's work; but most of us choose to work in order to use our gifts, to make a contribution to society, to be a whole adult person in every sense of the word. For myself, I know that when I don't work, my mental health goes out the window and I am prone to debilitating depression and anxiety; far better to manage that by working than by resorting to pharmaceutical cocktails (or, as many in my grandmother's generation did, to drink). I'm fortunate that I never needed to use formal childcare (extended family have been willing to support me at various times) but it's not automatically unloving - or lacking "natural affection" to do so.

As far as rights go, I see them as grounded in our God-given dignity and worth as human beings; that's why they're important; they have been given to us in our creation, and when we trample them by oppressing one another we trample the will of God.

NeedyFollower · Jul 24, 2017

Archivist said:
But those of us who believe that both men and women should be eligible to serve as pastors are not speaking against the wisdom given to Paul. We are simply pointing out that Paul was addressing a specific situation at a specific time. Elsewhere scripture tells us of women who did serve in leadership roles. Mary Magdalene was the first person to preach the Good News of the risen Christ. Junia was an apostle. Phoebe is named as a deacon. And before you say that none of them are listed as having been pastors, the fact is that the modern office of pastor did not exist at the time.

You are, of course, entitled to your own interpretation of scripture.

Actually , I am not entitled to my own interpretation unless I be foolish enough to think I can not be or am not deceived in some or many points of doctrine . You may recall that there are 20,000 or more denominations not to mention David Karesh , Jim Jones , Jehovah Witness, Mormons and I could go on ...They exist because someone was " wrong " and someone else was "right. " So , no I am absolutely not entitled to my own interpretation . I am required and it is my joy to seek the Lord with my whole heart and as much as lies within me or has been given to me , to seek for truth...To do that , I must deny myself ..I must take Me off the throne ...Family must not be on the throne , country must not be on the throne ...My job , my career , My ministry ..my anything must be dead with Christ on His Cross ...
for I am told by scripture that they days are coming when the way of truth will be evil spoken of ...people of religion will be a commodity to their leaders . ( As history tends to repeat itself, being part of the priesthood will not have a cost but rather be a pretty good gig as it was in Christ day . Though if we be in Christ and He in us , we are already in the priesthood and each in their role . One day , there will be no true cost to follow Christ ...no cost to being obedient to God's word ....no cost to turning from the world ( in repentance ) and seeking eternal things as we are all to do ...not Just pastors whatever they are ...I suspect we are actually describing those who are paid to deliver sermons , visit the hospitals , get the choir director hired , oversee who is on the building committee , attend general conference , line up the Christmas program , decide about the Easter egg hunt ...oh , communion , weddings , funerals and fundraisers ...I wonder if any of the early apostles would recognize the church or the pastors ?
One day , many will in disobedience and offer strange fire like Aaron's sons or be like Saul , not wait for Samuel /on the Lord before going to battle ....all with the intent on serving God. Cain and Able both offered a sacrifice .

As a matter of fact , God will send a strong delusion if we do not received a love for the truth.
Many are entitled to their own interpretation but I would instead seek truth regardless of the cost to reputation , job , etc.
May a women be an evangelist ? It has already happened when Mary was told to go. A noted martyr from Roman writings being questioned by the authorities for the dreaded crime of being a christian was indeed a deaconess ( as the first martyr , Stephen was a deacon ) and served and encouraged and he did being full of the Holy Ghost preach a sermon ...but even that was not setting a precedent for he was martyred afterwards so it was obviously a one time thing . ALL deacons served. Did she also lead men ? To say yes ( as we do with Aquila and Prisca regarding Apollos ) is speculation ...according to Jewish and early church custom, it would have been highly unlikely...not impossible but not a precedent....there is just not enough collaborating written records to go there . But did they minister ???? You bet they did ..to the point of putting their lives in jeopardy Paul says ..we have written records for that ..they ministered .

Even with Prisca to indicate that she took the lead in teaching Apollos is pure speculation. You may recall from Acts , deacons were initially chosen to minister to widows and orphans so the apostles did not have to "wait tables. " but were to use their time in preaching the gospel and prayer . By the way , our Lord Jesus thought it a great honor to gird himself and serve . But is serving beneath us ? Must we stand in a pulpit and preach ? Is that even what a pastor does ? A pastor is a Shepard who shall give an account to the Lord for each person's soul ..for their eternity ..not for their life but for their eternal damnation or salvation .

I say this in truth but one may justify anything they only need to ignore the TRUTH and The Way and the Life ...and the crowd won't mind provided they can hire someone to be their christian ( Pastor ..man or woman ) for them while they bring in their tithes and offerings , play golf , go to the beach , and other such narrow way activities and sufferings for Christ as we are called to. Yeah and all who would live Godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.

NeedyFollower · Jul 24, 2017

Paidiske said:
As well as agreeing with Archivist's post directly above, I think this needs a fuller treatment.

Working isn't mutually exclusive with loving one's husband and children. I love my husband and child and manage to work. And, as I think I said in this thread, or certainly in other threads, women have always worked; the difference now, post-industrial-revolution, is that our work and our homes have in most cases become physically separated. But that's why many women (and increasingly men also) choose forms of work which allow them to work from home, integrating their working lives with their domestic responsibilities.

No , you are of course right. Prisca and Aquila were both tent makers ..no children mentioned but they had a church in their house so I would suppose that had "spiritual children " of many ages. Lydia was a seller of purple. I have been thinking recently and I must ask these questions ...how would this have gone with first century Christians who knew that their children were at risk from Satan who walks around as a roaring lion seeking who he may devour...knowing that devout followers like Demas fell away having loved this present world ..knowing that it was a narrow way and few shall find it ..How would this conversation gone ?
Roman official to Christian families : We would like to give your children a good education. We shall give them to very nice strangers from the time they are 5 or 6 . From say , 8 am till 3 pm , 5 days a week ...you may see them at night and week ends but we will give them much studying to do ..much learning will be necessary .
Christian Family: Strangers ? And these strangers ..will they also be devout followers of Jesus Christ and care for the very soul of my children ? That my children learn to make themselves of no reputation like our Master Jesus ..that they learn to watch wait and be given to much prayer ?
Roman Official : Oh , no ..they will care nothing for your children's souls ..that is not their job. Their job is to "make them successful" . Your children may follow the narrow way or not ..It is only our concern that they be good citizens of the state ..of the republic ..of this world . You know ...good for the economy ..jobs and so forth .
Christian Family: And so what will we be doing ?
Roman Official : Oh , this will free you both up to pursue your dreams ..make lots of money..two incomes you know , contribute to society ..eat out ..grand vacations , cars, houses , lots of treasures to store up !! You will love it as will your kids.
Christian Family: And our souls and the souls of our children ..and where is Christ in all of this ?
Roman Official : Well you can't have everything. Even your Jesus said to count the cost. Not much time ...which is it ? We will give you the world ..just a small cost to you and your children.

And from what I can observe, talking to many working mothers, the primary drive for working isn't money. I mean, yes, it's good to be paid for one's work; but most of us choose to work in order to use our gifts, to make a contribution to society, to be a whole adult person in every sense of the word. For myself, I know that when I don't work, my mental health goes out the window and I am prone to debilitating depression and anxiety; far better to manage that by working than by resorting to pharmaceutical cocktails (or, as many in my grandmother's generation did, to drink). I'm fortunate that I never needed to use formal childcare (extended family have been willing to support me at various times) but it's not automatically unloving - or lacking "natural affection" to do so.

Well from what I observe when school is out due to snow , parents can not wait for school to be back in ..their kids are driving them crazy ...date night says to me " We need time away from you " I wonder if our heavenly Father needs time away from us ..No , I believe He gave the most precious thing He had in order to have fellowship with us eternally .

As far as rights go, I see them as grounded in our God-given dignity and worth as human beings; that's why they're important; they have been given to us in our creation, and when we trample them by oppressing one another we trample the will of God.

There is no scriptural basis for a christian's rights . We are counted as sheep for the slaughter ...unless a kernal of corn go to the ground and die , it remains alone . We are actually supposed to deny self that Christ might live . Trampling the will of God is done by asserting our own will. The idea of a christians ' rights came out of the enlightenment and through humanism. Voltaire , Locke , Hume , Propagated by Jefferson , Madison , Franklin , etc. all of which were believers in God and none a professing Christian . Who else do you suppose is a humanist and loves the dignity of man ? We are given a clue in the bible . " Get behind me satan , for thou savourst not the things that be of God but the THINGS THAT BE OF MAN " If there is hope in man , then Christ died in vain. God loved His fallen creation enough to give us His Son , but we are forgiven for Christ sake . As Paul says , in my flesh dwells no good thing . And elsewhere , we are told to forgive one another as God for Christ's sake has forgiven us ..It is why we Love Him so much because He loved us first .
The gospel has been corrupted ..do not teach your children to love their selves ..they are born with self love ...teach them to love Christ ..chances are , they are being influenced by the world , their teachers , peers , etc. Who do they spend the most time with ? Are they converted or do they sill love the world ? Do they know that the things we posses are vanity and will have no worth one day and maybe soon ?

Strong in Him · Jul 24, 2017

Aelialicinia said:
God took the form of a man when by the power of His Holy Spirit He was born of the Virgin Mary, the Theotokos. That is the answer. Only a man can be ordained as a deacon, priest or bishop because Jesus the perfect Man chose only men to be His disciples and apostles.

Jesus, the perfect man, also chose only circumcised Jews to be his disciples. Does that mean that no Gentile can hold the office of Pastor?

Archivist · Jul 25, 2017

NeedyFollower said:
Actually , I am not entitled to my own interpretation unless I be foolish enough to think I can not be or am not deceived in some or many points of doctrine . You may recall that there are 20,000 or more denominations not to mention David Karesh , Jim Jones , Jehovah Witness, Mormons and I could go on ...They exist because someone was " wrong " and someone else was "right. " So , no I am absolutely not entitled to my own interpretation . I am required and it is my joy to seek the Lord with my whole heart and as much as lies within me or has been given to me , to seek for truth...To do that , I must deny myself ..I must take Me off the throne ...Family must not be on the throne , country must not be on the throne ...My job , my career , My ministry ..my anything must be dead with Christ on His Cross ...
for I am told by scripture that they days are coming when the way of truth will be evil spoken of ...people of religion will be a commodity to their leaders . ( As history tends to repeat itself, being part of the priesthood will not have a cost but rather be a pretty good gig as it was in Christ day . Though if we be in Christ and He in us , we are already in the priesthood and each in their role . One day , there will be no true cost to follow Christ ...no cost to being obedient to God's word ....no cost to turning from the world ( in repentance ) and seeking eternal things as we are all to do ...not Just pastors whatever they are ...I suspect we are actually describing those who are paid to deliver sermons , visit the hospitals , get the choir director hired , oversee who is on the building committee , attend general conference , line up the Christmas program , decide about the Easter egg hunt ...oh , communion , weddings , funerals and fundraisers ...I wonder if any of the early apostles would recognize the church or the pastors ?
One day , many will in disobedience and offer strange fire like Aaron's sons or be like Saul , not wait for Samuel /on the Lord before going to battle ....all with the intent on serving God. Cain and Able both offered a sacrifice .

As a matter of fact , God will send a strong delusion if we do not received a love for the truth.
Many are entitled to their own interpretation but I would instead seek truth regardless of the cost to reputation , job , etc.
May a women be an evangelist ? It has already happened when Mary was told to go. A noted martyr from Roman writings being questioned by the authorities for the dreaded crime of being a christian was indeed a deaconess ( as the first martyr , Stephen was a deacon ) and served and encouraged and he did being full of the Holy Ghost preach a sermon ...but even that was not setting a precedent for he was martyred afterwards so it was obviously a one time thing . ALL deacons served. Did she also lead men ? To say yes ( as we do with Aquila and Prisca regarding Apollos ) is speculation ...according to Jewish and early church custom, it would have been highly unlikely...not impossible but not a precedent....there is just not enough collaborating written records to go there . But did they minister ???? You bet they did ..to the point of putting their lives in jeopardy Paul says ..we have written records for that ..they ministered .

Even with Prisca to indicate that she took the lead in teaching Apollos is pure speculation. You may recall from Acts , deacons were initially chosen to minister to widows and orphans so the apostles did not have to "wait tables. " but were to use their time in preaching the gospel and prayer . By the way , our Lord Jesus thought it a great honor to gird himself and serve . But is serving beneath us ? Must we stand in a pulpit and preach ? Is that even what a pastor does ? A pastor is a Shepard who shall give an account to the Lord for each person's soul ..for their eternity ..not for their life but for their eternal damnation or salvation .

I say this in truth but one may justify anything they only need to ignore the TRUTH and The Way and the Life ...and the crowd won't mind provided they can hire someone to be their christian ( Pastor ..man or woman ) for them while they bring in their tithes and offerings , play golf , go to the beach , and other such narrow way activities and sufferings for Christ as we are called to. Yeah and all who would live Godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.

I'm not entirely sure how to read what you are saying. Your post seems to say that there is no interpretation of scripture. Yet we all interpret scripture. Some--in fact the majority of Christians--believe that the elements of Holy Communion are the actual Body and Blood of Christ. Others say they those elements only symbolize the Body and Blood of Christ. That is interpretation.

And no, there is nothing in Scripture that says that a woman cannot be a pastor.

NeedyFollower · Jul 25, 2017

Archivist said:
I'm not entirely sure how to read what you are saying. Your post seems to say that there is no interpretation of scripture. Yet we all interpret scripture. Some--in fact the majority of Christians--believe that the elements of Holy Communion are the actual Body and Blood of Christ. Others say they those elements only symbolize the Body and Blood of Christ. That is interpretation.

And no, there is nothing in Scripture that says that a woman cannot be a pastor.

I am sorry that I was vague or worse in my answer. I was hopefully trying to allow the danger of my own private interpretation without some basis in both a historical and textual ( meaning letters of early church fathers which also agreed with the lives of known saints like Paul and known history ) / and of course Scripture . I prefer to see examples and the reasoning demonstrated in multiple places. Interpretation and inference are not the same . Is this true ? If it is not true then it is of course not true. It can not be both true and false. There is nothing in scripture that says a woman can not be a pastor. That is true ...so we infer that she can . That is not an interpretation . That is inferring. And by that reasoning, there is nothing to say she can not be anything or nothing at all . Many claim that Paul was misogynous but most who make that claim have never imprisoned Christians, held the cloak of those stoning Stephen , knocked down on the road to Damascus , seen and heard the Lord Jesus , lost their sight , had thei sight restored , converted and baptized , went into Arabia for several years to unlearn Judism and learn Christianity , suffered the loss of all things , let down over a wall , stoned and left for dead , beaten , shipwrecked, working day and night to support their own ministry and the care of others , while overseeing the start of the church(es) which included former pagans. So I place a bit of value on what Paul writes ...There is a reason that a women is not to usurp authority over a man ...because Eve was first deceived .
Are you aware of how many men do not love their wives but in truth just want to make their wives happy so they hand over authority to them ? Or conversely , the wife wants to make her husband happy so she " goes along with her husband " ? This is called self-love but is couched in " Husbands love your wives as Christ loved the church and gave himself for her . " To truly care about your spouse in a Christ centered relationship is God, Christ , Husband , Wife , Children . I do not see scriptural support otherwise . And God is not a God of confusion ...the confusion comes from man in rebellion to God's order ( which is beautiful and loving . ) I am all too familiar with the husband demanding his wife to be submissive but this is not of Christ ...Christ served His disciples ...the least among you will be the greatest ..the greatest will be servant of all . Most of this type of thinking is because the man himself is not submitted to Christ ..maybe does not even know Christ Jesus our Lord.
No , not according to my own interpretation but according to both history and scripture , a women should not be a pastor and more than she can be the husband of one wife . To say other wise is inference. That being said, this is a bit of a side argument because a woman being a pastor is the least of the body of Christ problems . Our main problem is our adultery with the world and our love of it . Covetousness with two Christians working is about the only way that a pastor can afford to " run" a church and put their kids in college , vacation , retirement ...all the things that Paul strove for ... Be followers of me as I follow Christ .....and mark those who also follow this way as an example to the flock . Can a women be a pastor ? Sure .

Paidiske · Jul 25, 2017

NeedyFollower said:
To truly care about your spouse in a Christ centered relationship is God, Christ , Husband , Wife , Children .

It's a small point, but I did want to pick it up because it's important; I'm sure you didn't mean here to separate God and Christ as if Christ were not God. Did you perhaps mean the Father, Christ, husband...?

NeedyFollower said:
Covetousness with two Christians working is about the only way that a pastor can afford to " run" a church and put their kids in college , vacation , retirement ...all the things that Paul strove for ...

I really don't understand this. Several thoughts:

- Working (even two people working) isn't necessarily about covetousness. There are other reasons to work, especially for ministers, who seek to serve the reign of Christ.

- Amongst my colleagues I see a variety of arrangements. Some clergy work full time. Some work part time. Some have spouses who work full time, spouses who work part time, or spouses who work not at all. (And of course, some clergy don't have children, even if they're married). Right now I work full time and my husband does a bit of consulting work during school hours. In the past we've done things differently; at one point we each worked three days a week and shared the domestic side of life. (Just as two examples).

So this idea that women want to be pastors so that we can have higher household income is, I think, completely barking up the wrong tree. It's not about the money, and we may well organise things so that overall, our household income is only equal to, or less than, what it might be if one spouse worked full time and the other stayed home.

NeedyFollower · Jul 26, 2017

Paidiske said:
It's a small point, but I did want to pick it up because it's important; I'm sure you didn't mean here to separate God and Christ as if Christ were not God. Did you perhaps mean the Father, Christ, husband...?

Paul alluded to " God , the Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ" though we know that if we know the Son then we know the Father and if we deny the Son we also deny the Father. If we have the Son , then we have the Father . Jesus said , This is eternal life, that they may know you , the only true God and Jesus Christ who you sent . ( John 17:3 ) Jesus also prayed that we ( the body of believers ) be one as Father and Son are one . Are we one or many ? I believe there is one Lord , one faith and one baptism . But I am also aware that belief is not faith for it was written to believers to endeavor for the faith once delivered to the saints.

I also am aware the our enemy of the truth is a master theologian ...particularly when things like truth crop up . I have ( I believe by God's grace or possibly I am deceived ) been trying to determine how the body came to be what it is..all the factions both before and after the reformation. Much of it came from what has come from what is called " orthodox theology" but repeatedly was accompanied by a total lack of love , humility , patience and mercy. Basically no grace . Many of the champions of the faith by whom we get our " foundation of truth ", encouraged behaviors that were anything but " harmless as doves and wise as serpents " . I do not ( I hope ) say this judgmentally but observationally. It is recorded history . So , I try not to debate things such as even the trinity though I do believe that all the fullness of God dwelt in God's Temple called Jesus Christ. ( Though obviously the Father is greater than the Son ..also , the Son was sent by the Father , not do His own will but the will of the Father ...Not even the Son of Man , nor the angels in heaven know the day nor the hour of His return but only the Father in heaven .

I really don't understand this. Several thoughts:

- Working (even two people working) isn't necessarily about covetousness. There are other reasons to work, especially for ministers, who seek to serve the reign of Christ.

- Amongst my colleagues I see a variety of arrangements. Some clergy work full time. Some work part time. Some have spouses who work full time, spouses who work part time, or spouses who work not at all. (And of course, some clergy don't have children, even if they're married). Right now I work full time and my husband does a bit of consulting work during school hours. In the past we've done things differently; at one point we each worked three days a week and shared the domestic side of life. (Just as two examples).

Well sister , I think it lovley and right that you and your spouse share domestic side of life because you are one body..there is no real division. " All you do , do in the name of Jesus ." Prisca and Aquila both made tents. Not sure if they had natural children.

So this idea that women want to be pastors so that we can have higher household income is, I think, completely barking up the wrong tree. It's not about the money, and we may well organise things so that overall, our household income is only equal to, or less than, what it might be if one spouse worked full time and the other stayed home.

Well yes , it is barking up the wrong tree because there is no difference between forsaking all to follow Jesus for clergy and non clergy ( though I despise that separation of levels of holiness . ) It appears that many christians choose high income potential jobs and when Christ returns , they will be pouring over a spreadsheet , on the phone making a deal, refinancing this or that , thinking about their 401 K and all of the foolish things which keep us from prayer ( which we are called to because we can . ) Let those who perish chase that which is going to be burned up and only has value in this life and will testify against us on judgement day according to James.

I am not even sure what the title pastor entails. Is is some one paid to preach every Sunday ( Saturday if an adventist ) And Sunday night and Wednesday night if southern baptist. I believe the early pastors , like many in the underground churches in China and Russia , knew the flock intimately. Knew their obedience ...made sure they had not fallen in love with this world ..made sure that the enemy did not snare them with flattering words , making the narrow way sound easy and the straight path less than the razor focus needed ...To make sure the gravity and soberness of the battle which we are in sinks in ..that they not become light and treacherous....for it is indeed a very , very serious endeavor as they soon found out .
Sister , look at some of the comments regarding those in the faith . ( Ye took joyfully the spoiling of all your goods ...or from Hebrews 10:33 ..How they became a gazing stock or a companion of those so used . ) There was a reason that a leader was not to be a novice ...it was required that they had been through the fire as it were because they were going to be leading others who were to be tried. Their faith was true though it often came at a great price. So can women be pastors ? I am not sure men can .

If you would have asked a first century christian " What they wanted to be when they grew up , they would have had no frame of reference for that question . " They did not expect to grow up . They expected either Christ to return or maybe be martyred . Their career had no place . If a man , maybe someone's slave if they were fortunate or work in a salt mine. There we very very few wealthy and most of those did not stay that way. Their main concern was obedience and faithfulness .
What they wanted to be was to hold on to what was given them in the face of what was quite often tremendous persecution and not deny Christ. They were heirs of the promise ...Sons and daughters of the most High God through regeneration and faith in Jesus Christ our Lord ..they did not need to be anything ...there was nothing higher they could be than what they were ...only less . Women ...pastor your daughters by your examples ..Let them know you do NOT love this world ..you seek a city who's maker is God. Women , pastor your sons by showing them that you care nothing for outward adornments but the inward adornment of a meek and quiet spirit which is of great price in the site of God .

Can women be pastors ..in our current terminology , yes ..they can be anything . But it has no bearing whatsoever on whether they are in the narrow way that leads to life. There shall be many in that day that shall say " Lord Lord ...didn't I ? "

Yes , this thread is probably barking up the wrong tree for it is probably a rabbit trail ...a distraction from the greater issue ...The greater issue is we as a body are quite potentially lost though we " do church" . We love and work for all of the same things as the world ( and teach our children to do like wise by our example ) and yet claim that this is not our home ..something is not adding up for me. When Jesus said , Woe to you who are rich for you have received your reward ...I think he meant " Woe to you who are rich for you have received your reward .
Jesus tells the church to repent in revelation ..the " saved " if you are a protestant. How are we different than the world ? Same fashions , same magazines , same entertainments . Divorce is about the same in the church as out ...And what makes us different is what we do for a few hours a week and a theology we believe ? Can women be pastors ? The largest issue is our inability to do truth ..to consider the possibility that we have let the world into our hearts . That WE may be the church described in 2nd Timothy Chapter 3. That because of " our rights " we are not prepared to be submitted to the will of God ...we want to vote about it ..discuss it ..our flesh wants to do anything but submit ...is Christ even in us ? Make your calling and election sure . That is the urgent need of the day . Not, can women be pastors . Sister ..take a look at Jeremiah chapter 5 and you will see history repeating itself . And believing in Jesus Christ does not give us license to also rebel against God and receive different treatment than those who were of the natural branch . They fell through unbelief . Do we believe Jesus' words or are we following a theology constructed by phrases taken out of context actually written to people who forsook all to follow Jesus and assign them to us ?
Can women be pastors is like " Should the deck chairs on the titanic have been fastened with bolts ? Or , who would have made a better president of Sodom and Gomorrah , Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump ?

Women Pastors part 2

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