The Injustice of Arminianism

jimmyjimmy said:

I proclaim the gospel to the lost, when I have the opportunity. It's the means God prescribed.

This subject can be discussed among believers, and it is important, but a discussion regarding how a man gets saved is not the same thing as a proclamation of the gospel. We preach the gospel promiscuously because we don't know who God's elect are. We, like the Sower, scatter "seed" everywhere, and it will grow - in the "good soil".

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But because you believe Christ paid only for the sins of the elect and salvation is only for them, can you look someone in the eyes and say Jesus died to pay for YOUR sins?

Phoebe Ann said:

But Adam had free will. God never forced anyone to sin. The natural man enjoys his sins. God never forced anyone to be a Christian. The spiritual man who has been quickened is no longer dead. He loves Christ and loves following Christ. Being quickened doesn't cause a person to kick and scream.

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Maybe I've misunderstood your post then, because that's my point exactly. We have free will; God doesn't force us to accept him.

Phoebe Ann said:

Why possibly instead of certainly?

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Because it's not certain.
There are an awful lot of tragedies, wars etc that God has NOT prevented. One of the biggest stumbling blocks for unbelievers is, "if there is a God, why does he allow so much suffering?" Yes, I'm sure he has thwarted many plans, and things may not have turned out as the perpetrators wanted - but it is not certain that God will always do this. Sin has consequences. Someone fires a gun; very often that means that someone else is injured or killed as a result. Someone chooses to drink and then get behind the wheel; possibly they will end up having an accident and causing injury or death.

God answers prayer; sometimes in the way that we aren't expecting, and sometimes we don't receive what we have asked for.
But I have never known him to intervene against my will. He didn't stop me from accepting various jobs that I wanted, even though he knew they wouldn't work out. When I started using birth control, after we were married, he didn't intervene and say "too bad; you're having kids anyway".
In Scripture, he didn't stop various people from walking away and not following Jesus. You've just agreed that he didn't force Adam to sin; neither did he say to him, "you want to eat that fruit, but I'm going to stop you."

jimmyjimmy said:

He would be completely just in condemning all mankind, would He not?

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Not in the Calvinist world. The Calvinist God condemns men who had no choice but to reject God -- God gave them no say in it. So it was therefore not just to punish them.

Rick Otto said:

Yes. I call it just. Who are we to question God's arbitration?

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If someone presents a view of God as arbitrary, then this view ought to be rejected. We know something of our creator by what we know from ourselves and universal virtues. We know that only a justice, merciful and loving God created us and this is revealed to us in scripture as well. Thus, the idea of a God that creates people and randomly assigns them to heaven or hell clearly must be rejected as that cannot be the Christian God.

Is the content of His creation up to Him or His creation?

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Having free will means that every aspect of creation is not under the direct control of God.

You posit the impossible.

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You need to state what you consider impossible instead of just attacking nothing.

The lump of clay has no pre-existant self and no self created intent.

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What does this have to do with my post?

You violently twist the context when you ignore salvation was only for Israel when reading the contrasting "whole world" or "everyone", etc.
The ego cannot accept the fact it's very existence is not of it's own will.

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That is almost incoherent and has nothing to do with my post.

QUOTE="RadiantGrace, post: 71559702, member: 400254"]If someone presents a view of God as arbitrary, then this view ought to be rejected. We know something of our creator by what we know from ourselves and universal virtues. We know that only a justice, merciful and loving God created us and this is revealed to us in scripture as well. Thus, the idea of a God that creates people and randomly assigns them to heaven or hell clearly must be rejected as that cannot be the Christian God.

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I wish to thank you for your response as much as I reject your unsubstantiated assertion that God's arbitration are unjust and random.
Thank you very much.

Having free will means that every aspect of creation is not under the direct control of God.

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That is impossible by definitions of God and freedom.
Wildly untrue.

You need to state what you consider impossible instead of just attacking nothing.

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You need to stop telling me what I need to do and stop accusing me of attack. You seem incognizant of your own hostility toward both God and man.

RisenInJesus said:

I believe God did put out as much effort to save Hitler as Paul

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so you believe Ezekiel 11:19-20 happened to both of these men? a new heart and new Spirit from God caused hitler to unrepentantly murder millions of jewish people? walking in God ways and being His people involves mass murder and genocide?

really?

RisenInJesus said:

It seems to me that the god of Calvinism is a very small god compared to the God of the Bible Who does know the beginning from the end, allowing real freedom and variables while still maintaining sovereign control.

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if you want to hold to a logically fallacious conclusion I can't stop you but you can't know the end from the beginning if it can change at any moment. such is called 'open theism', which is most unbiblical and diametrically opposed to Isaiah 46:9-10.

RisenInJesus said:

Some emphasize the sovereignty of God to the point that human beings are little more than robots simply doing what they have been sovereignly programmed to do.

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this is an often used canard that james 1:13-15 refutes. robots don't have a will or desires(neither do puppets). james says humans do and that they make decisions based on these desires and not an eternal decree they know nothing about.

RisenInJesus said:

I am not a universalist. The Bible is clear that though Christ paid for the sins of everyone salvation and eternal life is conditional upon trusting Jesus and a gift which must be received.

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is salvation something we conjure up on our own or is it a gift from God?

can we take out our own stony heart and give ourselves a heart of flesh or does God have to do that?

did Jesus dying on the cross for man's sin mean that the two things above happened to every single person without exception?

Romans 8&9 explains it all so well.

God does what he wants to who he wishes.

My words -' who are you little man to question that?

Oh I see you cry that, that's not fair. Apparently you know not who invented fair (and Everything else) by the way.

M-Bob

THE W said:

so you believe Ezekiel 11:19-20 happened to both of these men? a new heart and new Spirit from God caused hitler to unrepentantly murder millions of jewish people? walking in God ways and being His people involves mass murder and genocide?

really?

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First, I think you are using Ezekiel 11:19-20 incorrectly and out of context since this verse in context is concerning God's promise to the people of the nation of Israel and their future spiritual state when He gives them a new heart and spirit after He first restores them all back to the land He gave their fathers. Even if Ezekiel 11:19-20 does apply in some way to salvation or other individuals I would not believe Hitler had a new heart, spirit, or salvation as the scriptures are quite clear over and over again that a person must repent and believe God placing faith in Jesus before they are given the gift of forgiveness and eternal life.

THE W said:

this is an often used canard that james 1:13-15 refutes. robots don't have a will or desires(neither do puppets). james says humans do and that they make decisions based on these desires and not an eternal decree they know nothing about.

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So here are you saying that people are not robots or puppets and they do have a will to make decisions? Elsewhere it seems you have said that when it comes to salvation and believing the gospel people cannot freely make a decision. I believe James.

THE W said:

is salvation something we conjure up on our own or is it a gift from God?

can we take out our own stony heart and give ourselves a heart of flesh or does God have to do that?

did Jesus dying on the cross for man's sin mean that the two things above happened to every single person without exception?

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The Bible says that salvation and eternal life is a gift from God...people don't conjure up gifts. How much more of an impossibility that anyone could bring about their own salvation! Of course, not everyone is saved or becomes a new creation in Christ because the Bible states that one must first believe in the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior for this to happen. There are many examples in the scriptures that some people simply refuse to accept the gift.

Strong in Him said:

Maybe I've misunderstood your post then, because that's my point exactly. We have free will; God doesn't force us to accept him.

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Our faith is given to us by God. He doesn't take our faith away. What people call free will results in wrong choices because the whole world is wicked; those who choose to follow Christ were already chosen and regenerated by the Holy Spirit and will spend eternity with God. A natural man is incapable of understanding spiritual things. Some of them want nothing to do with the Bible. Others think you must maintain salvation by your works. Others believe you have no salvation until you combine the works with faith.

Strong in Him said:

Because it's not certain.
There are an awful lot of tragedies, wars etc that God has NOT prevented. One of the biggest stumbling blocks for unbelievers is, "if there is a God, why does he allow so much suffering?" Yes, I'm sure he has thwarted many plans, and things may not have turned out as the perpetrators wanted - but it is not certain that God will always do this. Sin has consequences. Someone fires a gun; very often that means that someone else is injured or killed as a result. Someone chooses to drink and then get behind the wheel; possibly they will end up having an accident and causing injury or death.

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Is God always loving in your view?

Strong in Him said:

God answers prayer; sometimes in the way that we aren't expecting, and sometimes we don't receive what we have asked for.
But I have never known him to intervene against my will. He didn't stop me from accepting various jobs that I wanted, even though he knew they wouldn't work out. When I started using birth control, after we were married, he didn't intervene and say "too bad; you're having kids anyway".
In Scripture, he didn't stop various people from walking away and not following Jesus. You've just agreed that he didn't force Adam to sin; neither did he say to him, "you want to eat that fruit, but I'm going to stop you."

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You're right He doesn't save everyone. They're following Satan and He doesn't stop them. He didn't stop Judas from betraying Christ. Judas was a devil, but God is more powerful than demons. God planned for Judas to betray Jesus because that was how Jesus would pay for our sins. Before Adam ate the fruit, God had planned to send His Son to die on the cross.

Proverbs 16
4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Romans 9
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Exodus 7
3 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt....

13 And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the Lord had said.

Exodus 10
1 And the Lord said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him:
2 And that thou mayest tell in the ears of thy son, and of thy son's son, what things I have wrought in Egypt, and my signs which I have done among them; that ye may know how that I am the Lord.

John 13
7 Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter.

Isaiah 55
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

jimmyjimmy said:

Go loved the world in this manner, that He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him will not perish, but have everlasting life.

I can say that to anyone. Can't you? I typically like to look people in the eye when I speak to them, so this would be no exception.

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Yeah, keep it general and impersonal. Yet, the word "whoever" is inclusive and normally gives the idea of anyone, rather than select ones. So by using that word in connection with the gospel message I think most people, other than those with the Calvinist mindset, would consider that the gospel message of salvation and everlasting life was available to each and every person.

Like when Jesus spoke to the crowds, "Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.” Matthew 11:28-30

Was He inviting everyone to come to Him? Or just the elect? Are the elect the only ones who labor, are heavy laden and need rest?

RisenInJesus said:

First, I think you are using Ezekiel 11:19-20 incorrectly and out of context since this verse in context is concerning God's promise to the people of the nation of Israel and their future spiritual state when He gives them a new heart and spirit after He first restores them all back to the land He gave their fathers.

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Ezekiel 36:26-28, exodus 12:43-49, romans 2:25-29, romans 9:6-8, romans 11

all who draw near to God in repentance and faith are the true Israel.

RisenInJesus said:

So here are you saying that people are not robots or puppets and they do have a will to make decisions? Elsewhere it seems you have said that when it comes to salvation and believing the gospel people cannot freely make a decision.

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there's a differences between having no will or desires(robots and puppets) and having a broken will and corrupt desires(psalms 14, romans 8:6-8, ephesians 2:1-3).

you wouldn't say Ezekiel 11:19-20 makes people puppets and robots who follow Christ would you?

jimmyjimmy said:

Like when Jesus spoke to the crowds, "Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.” Matthew 11:28-30

I thinks that's a great text. I use it all of time in evangelism.

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Was Jesus inviting everyone to come to Him? Or just the elect? Are the elect the only ones who labor, are heavy laden and need rest?

THE W said:

Ezekiel 36:26-28, exodus 12:43-49, romans 2:25-29, romans 9:6-8, romans 11

all who draw near to God in repentance and faith are the true Israel.

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In the Bible Israel is always Israel and those who repent and place their faith in Christ are...the Church.

THE W said:

there's a differences between having no will or desires(robots and puppets) and having a broken will and corrupt desires(psalms 14, romans 8:6-8, ephesians 2:1-3).

you wouldn't say Ezekiel 11:19-20 makes people puppets and robots who follow Christ would you?

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I would say that throughout the entire Bible it is shown that God calls people to make choices, He does not desire robots, and this is especially so with regard to salvation and freely responding to His love and forgiveness through Christ.

jimmyjimmy said:

Many accuse God of being, "unfair" in His election of some, but not all, people; however, they don't seem to understand that the alternative view in which God simply provides a way for men to be saved, but leaves them to their own devices, i.e., "free will", makes God out to be truly unjust because not all people have had equal opportunity in which to make their "choice".

The Biblical doctrine of election teaches that God shows mercy to some, and justice to the rest. He would be completely just in condemning all mankind, would He not?

The alternate, and errant, view is that God gives everyone a choice, assuming that every person who has every lived has had access to good preachers, godly teachers, Bibles in their language, Christlike neighbors. . . The reality is that many many millions have lived and died without ever hearing the gospel. How "fair" is that? (according to the Arminian view)

Do you hold to a view of salvation which makes God out to be unjust? How do you defend your position?

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So- once upon a time- Christianity existed and was up and running way before beliefs like Calvinism and Arminianism (which were named after their inventors- though the latter was only a response to the former) came about. Even more fascinating is that Calvin's beliefs aren't what was believed way back when- hence why said beliefs were named after him. If you find yourself in the Calvinism vs. Arminianism debate then you need to go earlier with your Christianity.

Phoebe Ann said:

Is God always loving in your view?

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God IS love, so he shows love.

Phoebe Ann said:

God planned for Judas to betray Jesus because that was how Jesus would pay for our sins. Before Adam ate the fruit, God had planned to send His Son to die on the cross.

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Basically, yes.
I don't think God planned for, or set Judas up to, betray Christ; I believe that he knew that it would happen, though. And the fact is that Judas was filled with remorse afterwards, gave the money back and then killed himself. I don't think a devil would do that; that, to me, suggests repentance.
But yes, God planned, from the beginning, for Jesus to come to die and save us. He saw the choice that Adam would make and provided a Saviour for mankind before we knew we even needed one.

Strong in Him said:

God IS love, so he shows love.



Basically, yes.
I don't think God planned for, or set Judas up to, betray Christ; I believe that he knew that it would happen, though. And the fact is that Judas was filled with remorse afterwards, gave the money back and then killed himself. I don't think a devil would do that; that, to me, suggests repentance.
But yes, God planned, from the beginning, for Jesus to come to die and save us. He saw the choice that Adam would make and provided a Saviour for mankind before we knew we even needed one.

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Okay, whether or not God plans something, He has power to prevent things He doesn't want to happen. He knows what will happen, and He knows He's going to let it happen before He creates the earth. So because Judas was a devil, incapable of redemption, he was chosen by Christ to be in the position to betray Christ. The fact that Christ would be betrayed was a given. Or did the plan to redeem us come about by coincidence?

Zechariah 11
12 And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.

13 And the Lord said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the Lord.

Matthew 26
14 Then one of the twelve, called Judas Iscariot, went unto the chief priests,

15 And said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you? And they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver.

16 And from that time he sought opportunity to betray him.