Where did the Reformers get the Authority to Change the Bible?

Monk Brendan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 21, 2016
4,636
2,875
72
Phoenix, Arizona
Visit site
✟294,430.00
Country
United States
Faith
Melkite Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
You are asking a "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?" kind of question, you know. We cannot answer your question unless we agree that the Reformers did change the Bible. So, again, IF you want to discuss who, if anyone, has the authority to change the Bible, let's talk about that.

I never asked, "Have you stopped tearing the pages out of the Bible yet?" The OP is not a question of what they did, or when they did it, or why they did it. The OP clearly asks what authority did the Reformers have for making those changes.

And they did make such changes, There are 73 Books in the Catholic Bible, and only 66 in the KJV. Who gave the Reformers the authority to cut out 7 book out of what, for at least 1100 years had been the Bible?

Nor am I going to believe that such changes were part of God's original plan, and that Luther, et al were just doing the job as His editor.
 
Upvote 0

Goatee

Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.
Aug 16, 2015
7,585
3,621
59
Under a Rock. Wales, UK
✟77,615.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Divorced
He didn't like the idea of purgatory now did he so he decided off his own back to rip out several books! :doh:

By doing that he wan't adhering to the fact that one should not add or take away any of God's words in scripture.
 
  • Prayers
Reactions: Gabriel Anton
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Some claim that God alone sets the extent of the canon of scripture. If that is so how and when did God set it?
The truth is that this whole thread is useless. For one thing, there are about a dozen different versions of the canon, depending on the church involved, and some go back to the early days of the church. The idea that there always was one canon and one only...until Luther touched what was supposedly thought by the whole world to be untouchable is not real history.
 
Upvote 0

Monk Brendan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 21, 2016
4,636
2,875
72
Phoenix, Arizona
Visit site
✟294,430.00
Country
United States
Faith
Melkite Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
(being rebuked by Paul is one of the clearest indications of this.

Paul seemed to argue with most of his companions, in case you missed that point in your deep studies of the Scripture.

Jesus rebuked Peter too. And yet He made Peter the leader of the Apostles.
 
Upvote 0

GingerBeer

Cool and refreshing with a kick!
Mar 26, 2017
3,511
1,348
Australia
✟119,825.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
The truth is that this whole thread is useless. For one thing, there are about a dozen different versions of the canon, depending on the church involved, and some go back to the early days of the church. The idea that there always was one canon and one only...until Luther touched what was supposedly thought by the whole world to be untouchable is not real history.
Is your contention that there is no such thing as a God given canon of scripture?
 
Upvote 0

Goatee

Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.
Aug 16, 2015
7,585
3,621
59
Under a Rock. Wales, UK
✟77,615.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Divorced
The truth is that this whole thread is useless. For one thing, there are about a dozen different versions of the canon, depending on the church involved, and some go back to the early days of the church. The idea that there always was one canon and one only...until Luther touched what was supposedly thought by the whole world to be untouchable is not real history.

In reality, it all kicked off with Luther as you well know!
 
  • Prayers
Reactions: Gabriel Anton
Upvote 0

Monk Brendan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 21, 2016
4,636
2,875
72
Phoenix, Arizona
Visit site
✟294,430.00
Country
United States
Faith
Melkite Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
The truth is that this whole thread is useless. For one thing, there are about a dozen different versions of the canon, depending on the church involved, and some go back to the early days of the church. The idea that there always was one canon and one only...until Luther touched what was supposedly thought by the whole world to be untouchable is not real history.

It is ironic that the same councils Protestants point to as authoritative in settling the New Testament canon were also used by the Church to authoritatively settle the Old Testament canon.

However, historical or not, someone took out 7 books from what the Canon of the Bible had been decided by the Council of Carthage. This change does historically show up in Western Europe in the 15th century--at the time of the Reformers.

The OP is asking who gave them the authority--after at least 1100 years, to make those changes.
 
Upvote 0

Monk Brendan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 21, 2016
4,636
2,875
72
Phoenix, Arizona
Visit site
✟294,430.00
Country
United States
Faith
Melkite Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
Personally, given their lack of acceptance as inspired Scripture, even amongst the Jews, I do not think they belong in the Bible.

OH? They were in the Septuagint since way before Christ, and the Jews did (and do) accept the Septuagint.
 
  • Prayers
Reactions: Gabriel Anton
Upvote 0

MarkRohfrietsch

Unapologetic Apologist
Site Supporter
Dec 8, 2007
30,454
5,306
✟828,231.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
But this thread is not about the changes themselves. This is about the AUTHORITY to make those changes. To begin by disputing or defending the changes is not what this thread is about, and the actual changes themselves are not germane. Let's not get sidetracked.
There were some, but Luther was not among them; in fact, he came out of protection in the Wartburg to put a stop to what eventually became known as the "Peasants War".
 
  • Prayers
Reactions: Gabriel Anton
Upvote 0

amariselle

Jesus Never Fails
Sep 28, 2004
6,648
4,194
The Great Northern Wilderness
✟60,500.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
OH? They were in the Septuagint since way before Christ, and the Jews did (and do) accept the Septuagint.

They accept is as having important historical information, yes. Not on the same level as the rest of their Scripture. (Our OT)
 
  • Prayers
Reactions: Gabriel Anton
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

yeshuaslavejeff

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Jan 6, 2005
39,944
11,098
okie
✟214,996.00
Faith
Anabaptist
  • Prayers
Reactions: Gabriel Anton
Upvote 0

MarkRohfrietsch

Unapologetic Apologist
Site Supporter
Dec 8, 2007
30,454
5,306
✟828,231.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Well, the authority of the Pope and the Magisterium is another topic altogether. I would think that the entirely corrupt history of such would cause at least some doubts and honest questions in this regard.

It does for me anyway.

So, I have to agree that the Magisterium does not have the power to change God's word, which is also why He has never let that happen.

And were it not for the arrogant defiance of God's word and God's will by a hand full of bad popes; there likely would have been no need for what we now call the reformation.
 
  • Prayers
Reactions: Gabriel Anton
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
OH? They were in the Septuagint since way before Christ, and the Jews did (and do) accept the Septuagint.
Wrong. The Jews of antiquity were divided on the question of including the Apocrypha and, even today, religious Jews are more likely to see them in approximately the same way as Lutherans and Anglicans do--as containing some worthwhile information but not as Scripture. In the 16th century, both Luther and the Roman Catholic church made changes to the Apocrypha.
 
Upvote 0

amariselle

Jesus Never Fails
Sep 28, 2004
6,648
4,194
The Great Northern Wilderness
✟60,500.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
Paul seemed to argue with most of his companions, in case you missed that point in your deep studies of the Scripture.

Jesus rebuked Peter too. And yet He made Peter the leader of the Apostles.

"But Jesus called them unto him, and said, 'Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.

But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;

And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:

Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.'"
- Matthew 20:25-28

"
And he came to Capernaum: and being in the house he asked them, 'What was it that ye disputed among yourselves by the way?'

But they held their peace: for by the way they had disputed among themselves, who should be the greatest.

And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, 'If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all.'" - Mark 9:33-35

"Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,

Saying 'The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,

And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,

And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.

But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.

And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.'" -
Matthew 23:1-12
 
  • Prayers
Reactions: Gabriel Anton
Upvote 0

amariselle

Jesus Never Fails
Sep 28, 2004
6,648
4,194
The Great Northern Wilderness
✟60,500.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
And were it not for the arrogant defiance of God's word and God's will by a hand full of bad popes; there likely would have been no need for what we now call the reformation.

Who can say? "Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely."

The very office of Pope and the honour and glory that go with it are entirely unbiblical. The truth is no man should be elevated and revered like that, the Bible (Jesus) speaks firmly against it.

I think, sadly, it was bound to happen sooner or later.
 
  • Prayers
Reactions: Gabriel Anton
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Site Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,279
8,500
Milwaukee
✟410,948.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
You recently accused me of not reading the OP on another thread. Please READ the OP. I am pointing out that Luther (and others) made changes to the Bible on their own authority, and not by the Authority of God.

How are you supporting your pointing? I don't recall flames dancing on many heads accept for in one story.
 
  • Prayers
Reactions: Gabriel Anton
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Site Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,279
8,500
Milwaukee
✟410,948.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Prove that they did, give me book, chapter and verse of the Bible, (You're Sola Scriptura, aren't you?) and show me biographical information to prove that proposition.

The Holy Spirit resides in that place when the wind stops blowing.
How have you charted it's travels? Or are you using the dancing flame method?
 
  • Prayers
Reactions: Gabriel Anton
Upvote 0

Vicomte13

Well-Known Member
Jan 6, 2016
3,655
1,816
Westport, Connecticut
✟93,837.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
It is ironic that the same councils Protestants point to as authoritative in settling the New Testament canon were also used by the Church to authoritatively settle the Old Testament canon.

However, historical or not, someone took out 7 books from what the Canon of the Bible had been decided by the Council of Carthage. This change does historically show up in Western Europe in the 15th century--at the time of the Reformers.

The OP is asking who gave them the authority--after at least 1100 years, to make those changes.

They did not have the authority, and they should not have done it. It was an error on the part of Luther and the Reformers.

Having made the error, and the error having been accepted, the shorter abridged Protestant Canon of 66 books has now become one of the most sacred traditions of Protestantism, and as Catholics we know how important Tradition is.

The change having been made, it now must be defended, because it is their Tradition.

We have to deal with the same thing: unwise decisions and bad acts of the historical Church that we then are called to somehow defend, because if we don't - if we admit to an error - then for many the whole edifice of religion comes crashing down.

For my part, I recognize that the Bible itself is simply not "all that". Jesus didn't teach from it. Neither did any of the Apostles. They referred to a passage here, a passage here, but there was no Bible until the 300s AD. So, in truth, the Bible really is not vitally important. What Christ SAID is what is important.

That comes down through tradition, and Jesus understood that the easiest way to convey that tradition over time is through a continuous institution: ergo the Church. The Church understood that the easiest way to keep track of tradition and teach itself and its clergy was to have the record in writing: ergo the Bible.

But the utility of a canon, and the Bible, easily lapses into idolatry and exaggerated claims of authority, just as the utility of an institution easily lapses into idolatry and exaggerated claims of authority about it.

How do we know the Christian Churches - all of the old ones, are rife with errors and exaggerations and mistakes? They all killed people. That is prima facie evidence of error and sin. We know from their deeds that they were not infallible, because they failed.

That doesn't mean that the books, the canons, what they have brought forward, is not good. It DOES mean most certainly that none of the traditions are perfect. They're all imperfect. Everybody - Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox engages in idolatry when they claim their book, their church, etc. is infallible. We know that's not true: they murdered people.

Because they are all in error, none of them has the towering authority they all claim.

Which doesn't mean we chuck 'em, but it DOES mean that we can see the tomfoolery when its before us.

Truth is, the different Eastern Churches have canons of different lengths, the Catholic Church has a canon of a certain length, the Protestants have a canon of a certain length, it's all tradition, and none of it matters. Truth is, the words of Jesus in the Gospels, Acts and Revelation - that's the marrow of all that writing, and they've all got that. The rest is additional information which is nice, but ancillary.

Nobody's ever going to admit to error, because they're all puffed up with the sin of pride, and they all defend the indefensible. Martin Luther had people burnt as witches. Calvin had an opponent burnt as a heretic. The Catholic Church killed a lot of people in that era. They were all crackpots and NONE of them had true divine authority - would God murder people for differences of opinion? No. So all of them were ruled by pride and the devil at that time, and nobody should be defending them too terribly hard.

When people do, it's because of the idolatry of tradition.
We really should all know better.
All of us.

WHY were all of them so filled with error and evil? Well, in large part because their solution to arguments they could not answer was to simply torture and murder their opponents, if they could. Therefore Pope Leo, and Martin Luther, and John Calvin, and John Knox all succeeded in carving out petty little religious dictatorships within the reach of their arms and prosecutors, and in the process made sure that ALL of their arguments are weak, stupid and indefensible in the face of ANY good lawyer from ANY side today.

Once you start murdering people over differences in religion, you're at the level of Muslim fanatics and you have by the very act of murder, absolutely ceased to speak with any credible authority about the real God.

Truth is, the Reformation Era is a black hole of Christian evil and stupidity, everybody was wrong, blood is all over the place, and all of the Biblical canons that came out of it are fine, because the Bible just ain't all that, and all of the canons have the Gospels, Acts and Revelation, which contain among them every single word that Jesus every said.

HE is God - the rest is just detail and you're better off chucking the lot of it rather than killing a single man over it.

You may now all carry on with your bickering. I've said my piece and am out of here.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

rockytopva

Love to pray! :)
Site Supporter
Mar 6, 2011
20,046
7,674
.
Visit site
✟1,065,147.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Single
I believe in the seven churches as ages...

Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with the Apostle to the Circumcision, Peter
Smyrna - Martyr - Beginning with the Apostle to the Un-Circumcision, Paul
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Beginning with DL Moody, the first to make money off of ministry

The Apostles gave the Apostle Paul and Barnabas the church of the gentiles...

And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision. - Galatians 2:9

Regarding the churches the Lord Jesus says...

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches - Revelation 2:7, 2:29, 3:6, 3:13, 3:22

So it is the Spirit that gives authority to guide the church as he sees fit.
 
  • Prayers
Reactions: Gabriel Anton
Upvote 0