LDS Did Joseph Smith and the 1830 BOM plagairize the 1823 book "View of the Hebrews"?

ToBeLoved

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By the same standard, Jesus was a failure because he couldn't get the seal of approval from the Jewish leadership of his day.

Might want to think about this line of reasoning.
Totally different.

Mormons are claiming Hebrew roots when they do not have them, from the 12 Tribes of Israel. Now why would they want to do that? What is so valuable from Hebrew roots that are worth all of this. Is it because the Hebrews are God's chosen people? Special to Judaism and Christianity and spoken of in the BIble that God will curse anyone who who curses them.

Genesis 12:2
2 And I will make you a great nation, And I will bless you, And make your name great; And so you shall be a blessing; 3 And I will bless those who bless you, And the one who curses you I will curse. And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed."
 
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ToBeLoved

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iron replied to you; By the same standard, Jesus was a failure because he couldn't get the seal of approval from the Jewish leadership of his day.

So let's look at that reasoning.

Jesus came to the Jews, "He came unto his own, and his own received him not", on an individual bases many did accept him as the "the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel" John 1

But those with the main authority and controlled the politics of the Jews rejected him, they called him Beelzebub and eventually " they cried, saying, Crucify him, crucify him". Luke 23

The Jews as a whole today still reject him, does that rejection make His claim to being their Messiah any less true?

Since the Book of Mormon is about Jesus and a second witness to his Messiah-ship why should any Jewish group support it now anymore that they supported Jesus when he walked among them?

Since in the Book of Mormon story all of the peoples who at one time believed in Jesus rejected him becoming a wicked people and eventually being completely destroyed, why after 2000 years and with no written langue should they have any remembrance of these people?
Now let's really look at it.

God is still with the Jewish people. And when Jesus returns He will also return to show the Jews that He is their Messiah and bring them unto Him. So, even with all that, God has not forgotten them.

The Bible says that in the last days God will reassemble the Hebrew people in Israel. That is happening now and was put in the BIble 2,000 years ago.

The Jewish people being disobdeint brought in the time of the gentiles, but Jesus is still coming back for the Jews/Hebrews.

So, nothing like what you say.
 
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ToBeLoved

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...while Jesus was a Jew.
Yes. A Jew, because the Messiah had to come through the lineage of the Hebrews.

That is only fulfilling the prophecy from the Old Testament. More proof that the Bible is the Word of God.

Why do you pull out His being a Jew?

Do you not realize that everything about the Jewish Messiah had to be Jewish? Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament Law. If Jesus was not Jewish and Hebrew that would be a problem.

Jesus said, I come first for the Jews, then the gentiles.

His apostles went first to the Jews, then the gentiles.

We have no problem with that. Under the New Covenant there is no distinction in Christ's church. He has brought ALL under the New Covenant. That is why it is the New Covenant.
 
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tickingclocker

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bom-view-of-the-hebrews-parallels.jpg


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/View_of_the_Hebrews

and given the fact there is no archaeological evidence of "reformed egyptian", the land of moron, and the peoples of the bom - jaredites, nephites, and lamanites migrating to the americas.
Was that a typo... "moron". Hope so. Because anything else would definitely be in extremely poor taste, and against forum rules. You should edit that ASAP.

And yes, I believe it was part of the story.

Just following the rules.
 
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Kiwi Christian

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Ironhold

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If Martin's the best you've got, it's game over.

Christian Countercult Movement: W.R. Martin

Even non-Mormon sources are admitting that there are enough questions about his credentials and arguments that someone from an academic background is within their rights to dismiss him out of hand.
 
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withwonderingawe

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Check out

3.4 million boy is this old or what

It's amassing how he distorted the Book of Abraham. They don't have the manuscripts, professor Nelsen was not a professor he was a fraud he never worked for the Church.

This is really funny.
 
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withwonderingawe

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I remember DJ Nelson coming to Turlock California, he made a big stir;
This is from Jeff Lindsey
"Dee Jay Nelson led the charge in the assault on the Book of Abraham following the 1967 discovery of a part of the original set of papyrus documents that Joseph Smith once had received from an 1831 find in Egypt. For 12 years, Nelson made a living by giving anti-Mormon lectures focused on the Book of Abraham. He claimed to be a professor with a Ph.D. in Egyptology whose credentials included being employed the last king of Egypt, King Farouk, who allegedly was so happy with Nelson's work that Nelson was awarded "a small collection of Egyptian antiquities."

Incredibly, Nelson's credentials were purely fraudulent. The source of his Ph.D. was a fraudulent "degree mill" called Pacific Northwestern University. I've seen copies of his false degree (apparently purchased) from PNU and the documentation exposing that 'university' as a fraud (see Robert L. Brown and Rosemary Brown, They Lie in Wait to Deceive, vol. 1, Brownsworth Publishing, Mesa, AZ, 1981; see also vols. 2-4; you can see an online sample of the information in their book). Look it up yourself - you won't find it listed among any list of real colleges and universities. Inquiries to true Egyptologists in Egypt (such as Dr. El Zeini, associated with the Cairo Museum) and to the Egyptian government revealed the dishonesty of Nelson's claims to having been employed and recognized as an Egyptologist in Egypt.

During a speech in Mesa, Arizona on Feb. 22, 1980, Nelson said, "I'm either an Egyptologist of I'm fooling a lot of people....write these people that I mentioned and you will find out the truth of the matter." Usually such phony challenges are not acted on but are taken as proof of sincerity. Not so with Robert L. Brown and Rosemary Brown, who did contact Nelson's references and exposed him as a complete fraud in They Lie in Wait to Deceive, vol. 1, Brownsworth Publishing, Mesa, AZ, 1981; see also vols. 2-4). These volumes provide extensive and detailed documentation (copies of newspaper articles, letters, documents, ads promoting Dee Jay's lectures, etc.) of the deception and lies on Nelson's part. Nelson was exposed and put out of business, no longer recognized as an "expert" who could command large fees for his work (anti-Mormonism can be quite a lucrative business). However, his works - and methods - live on. Numerous anti-Mormon books continue to cite Nelson as an authority and use his tainted methods and push his errant findings. Examples include "Doctor" Walter Martin (another case of a self-proclaimed doctor who doesn't have a doctorate), Jerald and Sandra Tanner, Wayne Cowdrey, Howard A. Davis, Harry Ropp, Father William Mitchell, and others. Why? I feel the motive hasn't changed: there are big bucks to be made in the anti-Mormon "ministry," and in such a cause, the ends always seem to justify the means. Certainly there are many LDS critics who are sincere and do not have any monetary motive - but altruism seems absent among the "real pros," the ones making highly priced, sensational productions like "The God Makers" (just $85 for this hot video tape!) or the ones running organizations with multi-million dollar incomes like Walter Martin's CRI group.

Among the many lies of Nelson (still gleefully accepted by some anti-Mormon writers) is his claim that the LDS Church asked him to examine "the original documents" of the Book of Abraham and translate them. First, we don't have the original papyri - only a few fragments (and the papyri from which the Book of Abraham text was derived are apparently not among the fragments, as shown in Part 1 of my Book of Abraham page). Second, the Church placed the papyri on public display upon receiving them and allowed scholars to examine them. Neither Nelson nor anyone else was commissioned to make an official translation. In fact, it turns out that Nelson was quite incapable of translating Egyptian. But all of this doesn't matter to those intent on carrying out the profitable anti-Mormon crusade - nor does it matter that the findings of Nelson, apart from his deceitful methods - are utterly demolished by the simple fact that the existing fragments, only a small part of the original collection, could not possibly be the ones Joseph Smith used for his translation." The Curious Story of Dee Jay Nelson
 
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withwonderingawe

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So he thinks it all came from the Spaulding manuscript:doh:

Fact Joseph Smith never met Soloman Spaulding, you have to be able to connect the two together. Spaulding died in Amity Pennsylvania in 1816 when Joseph was 11 years old living in Palmyra New York, that 377 miles away. In those days that might take two weeks to travel. The theory is Sidney Rigdon found the Spaulding manuscript and thought it would make a good story and brought it to Joseph Smith and they concocted the Book of Mormon. The problem here is that Joseph started talking about the Book of Mormon years before he met Regdon in fact the Book of Mormon was published before he even met Rigdon.
 
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CitizenD

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Those interested in this topic may also be interested in the parallels between The Late War and the Book of Mormon. In my opinion as a professional data analyst, there are two many similarities between these two books to be coincidence.

Joseph Smith almost certainly cribbed significant portions, plot points and phrases directly out of The Late War.

The Book of Mormon and The Late War
 
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BigDaddy4

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Here we go again...

How hard is it to think that maybe, just maybe, it was *not* plagiarized?
Extremely difficult to think in those terms when there is absolutely *ZERO* evidence the people and events in the BoM ever existed, or that "Reformed Egyptian" was ever a language.

The evidence *for* plagiarism far exceeds any evidence in support of the BoM.
 
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CitizenD

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Extremely difficult to think in those terms when there is absolutely *ZERO* evidence the people and events in the BoM ever existed, or that "Reformed Egyptian" was ever a language.

The evidence *for* plagiarism far exceeds any evidence in support of the BoM.
Agreed.

The translation of the papyri in the book of Abraham, by Joseph Smith himself, is an outright fraud. The papyri in question is a common funerary text, part of the Egyptian book of the dead that was often found in tombs. Smith had the most absurd translation of the embalming scene on the fragment that now, thanks to us actually learning Egyptian, we know to be a complete fiction.

The book of Abraham is now a canonized text in Mormonism. And it's a total fraud.
 
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CitizenD

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CitizenD, I have a big picture question for you:
Is your faith in Christ rooted in the words of linguistic professors?
If not, why do you think LDS should root our faith in Christ in what linguistic professors say?

Joseph Smith claimed divine translation for a work that *is nothing that he claimed it to be*. I suppose the better question, is why would you trust him?
 
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Jane_Doe

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Joseph Smith claimed divine translation for a work that *is nothing that he claimed it to be*. I suppose the better question, is why would you trust him?
I will address your question after you answer mine:

Is your faith in Christ rooted in the words of linguistic professors?
If not, why do you think LDS should root our faith in Christ in what linguistic professors say?
 
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BigDaddy4

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I will address your question after you answer mine:

Is your faith in Christ rooted in the words of linguistic professors?
If not, why do you think LDS should root our faith in Christ in what linguistic professors say?
You are deflecting again. The Bible - God and Christ's words - are written in non-English languages. So linguistic translations matter for those of us who cannot read the original languages.

The BoM was supposed to be written in "Reformed Eqyptian" - a language that has no evidence of existance. The Book of Abraham was Smith's supposed translation by "divine inspiration". As has been shown, it was just a funeral text and Smith was wrong.

Were the Bereans' faith "rooted in the the words of linguistic professors" when they "examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true." (Acts 17:11)?? Note that Scripture says they were "noble" in doing so.

You are caught up in your own hypocritical attempt to deflect and deceive. The Bible - God's Word - says we are to examine what people say, especially those who claim to be prophets (1 Thes 5:21, 1 John 1-6, et al). So while you want to disregard the examinations of your religion and imply a lack of faith in doing so, it is entirely in line with Scripture to examine the evidence for or against matters of faith.
 
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withwonderingawe

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Those interested in this topic may also be interested in the parallels between The Late War and the Book of Mormon. In my opinion as a professional data analyst, there are two many similarities between these two books to be coincidence.

Joseph Smith almost certainly cribbed significant portions, plot points and phrases directly out of The Late War.

The Book of Mormon and The Late War

Don't ya think some Mormons have looked at this!

First of all you have to prove Joseph Smith read the book, not a person ever mentioned it. You would think someone living at the time would have said gee this sounds just like that book I read as a kid. No one ever did.

An example of what he does
From the late war;
19:13 And ... weapons of war were of curious workmanship

then they give this example from the Book of Mormon Ether 10

And ... weapons of war ... of exceedingly curious workmanship

What Ether 10 actually says is

25 And they did make all manner of tools to till the earth, both to plow and to sow, to reap and to hoe, and also to thrash.
26 And they did make all manner of tools with which they did work their beasts.
27 And they did make all manner of weapons of war. And they did work all manner of work of exceedingly curious workmanship.


They don't tell you it came out of a different sentence.

Now you need to look no further than the Bible to see the source or the wording; Ex 35:32 And to devise curious works, to work in gold, and in silver, and in brass,

The point is both books use Biblical wording and so would have many many phrases in common.

another example
Alma 10:6: the fourth day of this seventh month, which is in the tenth year of the reign of the judges.
The Late War 26:1: the fourth day of the seventh month, which is the birth day of Columbian Liberty and Independence,

Now just two examples from the Bible
Zechariah 7:1: And it came to pass in the fourth year of king Darius, that the word of the Lord came unto Zechariah in the fourth day of the ninth month, even in Chisleu;

Nehemiah 9:1: Now in the twenty and fourth day of this month the children of Israel were assembled with fasting, and with sackclothes, and earth upon them.

The Bible uses this combination of words to count time many times as does the Book of Mormon. The forth of July is not something special, in Alma 56:42 he uses the 3rd of our July. "But it came to pass that they did not pursue us far before they halted; and it was in the morning of the third day of the seventh month" .

One odd thing about the Book of Mormon it only seems to have eleven months nor any 30th day. They also switch calendars, first they count from the time they leave Jerusalem and then about 92 bc they switch and start counting from the reign of the judges. Then after the coming of Christ they switch again and start over.

There seems to be a three cycle time counting going on, the time they left Jerusalem, the reign of the judges and then the days from the time Christ visited them. Interestingly the calendar used by many Central American natives like the Olmec and Maya has 3 cycles too. They don't correspond in anyway but it is interesting.

Ya don't find anything like that in The Last Great War.


FairMormon has gone through this claim and have a major point to make;

"The authors of the study present us these lists of similarities. In presenting this list, we get presented with a fallacy that is called the Texas Marksman (or the Texas Bulls Eye). Essentially, the way the reference works is that you shoot a bunch of rounds into the side of your barn, and then you go up to the holes and paint your target around them (giving you the best and tightest clustering). Usually, the way these models work in accepted applications is that you start by testing the model in situations where you already know the outcome. That way, you can see how reliable your new model is. And if it is highly reliable in known cases, then you can start cautiously applying it to unknown models (you don't create your own target this way).

By intuiting that it must be right, this model used with The Late War simply skipped the testing part. But this created one of the biggest obvious problems with the theory. They didn't stop with the Book of Mormon. They ran a test on a Jane Austin novel, and found a source (a relatively unknown book from 1810). Why is this important? Austin was a prolific writer, sending thousands of letters during her lifetime detailing what she was reading, her influences, writing about her writing, and so on. We have a huge body of literature devoted to dealing with her writing (she was one of the most important writers of the period). So when you have a statistical model that produces a brand new source, not noticed by anyone previously, not mentioned in any of her letters, and so on - there ought to be a bit of a red flag raised. But there wasn't. Had this theory been introduced to academic literary theorists - this would have been the major point of dispute (since they don't really care about the Book of Mormon). Did this model really find a previously unknown and unidentified source of Jane Austin's work? Or did it simply create the illusion of doing this by painting a bulls eye after clustering its data? I am pretty confident it was the second option here. (As a side note, discovering a new source for Jane Austin would be a thesis significant sort of discovery)."

://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Book_of_Mormon/Plagiarism_accusations/The_Late_War#Question:_Did_Joseph_Smith_plagiarize_passages_from_Gilbert_Hunt.27s_book_The_Late_War.2C_between_the_United_States_and_Great_Britain.2C_from_June.2C_1812.2C_to_February.2C_1815.3F
 
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withwonderingawe

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The BoM was supposed to be written in "Reformed Eqyptian" - a language that has no evidence of existance.

First you have to know what the Book of Mormon actually says and then go from there.

1 Nephi 1
"2 Yea, I make a record in the language of my father, which consists of the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians.

and then in Mormon 9 the man who is doing the editing says;

32 And now, behold, we have written this record according to our knowledge, in the characters which are called among us the reformed Egyptian, being handed down and altered by us, according to our manner of speech.
33 And if our plates had been sufficiently large we should have written in Hebrew; but the Hebrew hath been altered by us also; and if we could have written in Hebrew, behold, ye would have had no imperfection in our record.

So there is no claim that reformed Egyptian exist anywhere but on the plates. So for you to say there is no such thing has no meaning to it.

But starting in 7th century bc here are examples of Hebrews using Egyptian hieratic

""The fourth presentation at BYU’s Willes Center for Book of Mormon Studies conference on 31 August 2012 was on “Writing in 7th Century BC Levant,” by Stefan Wimmer of the University of Munich. It was entitled “Palestinian Hieratic.” He examined an interesting phenomena in Hebrew inscriptions, the use of Egyptian hieratic (cursive hieroglyphic) signs.

Basically Hebrew scribes used Egyptian signs for various numerals, weights and measures. The changes in the form of these signs parallel similar chronological changes in the form of Egyptian hieratic characters, which indicates continued contact of some sort between Egyptian and Hebrew scribes, probably over several centuries. (If there had been a single scribal transmission with no ongoing contact, the changes in the Hebrew forms of hieratic signs would not parallel contemporary changes in Egyptian hieratic forms.) No other Semitic language used Egyptian hieratic signs except Hebrew (with one possible Moabite example.)

There are a couple of hundred examples of such texts, the majority dating from the late seventh century, and geographically mainly from Jerusalem southward. The phenomena ends after the Babylonian captivity. (In other words, Palestinian hieratic is most common in precisely the time and location of Lehi and Nephi, and only exists in Hebrew.)"

Palestinian Hieratic

One of those neat things which we Mormons smile about.
 
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