Catholics...Why Do Beliefs About Mary Matter?

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PeaceB

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Do you believe that God worked through people in regard to the writing and formation of His word?

I do.
Absolutely.

God cares deeply about His word for it is the only way we know Him specifically. Without it we are left with nothing more than vague generalities and uncertainty.
Absolutely. But the word of God is not limited to Scripture, and this is a very good thing considering that we have only good approximations of the original inspired texts, rather than true copies of them.
 
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Goatee

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Absolutely.


Absolutely. But the word of God is not limited to Scripture, and this is a very good thing considering that we have only good approximations of the original inspired texts, rather than true copies of them.

I agree. God is not limited to scripture. I truly believe that God reveals a lot to people. Not just through scripture but via other means also.

The Holy Spirit is very much guiding and teaching in the Church today.
 
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amariselle

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Absolutely.

Absolutely. But the word of God is not limited to Scripture, and this is a very good thing considering that we have only good approximations of the original inspired texts, rather than true copies of them.

"And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen." - John 21:25

Nothing else that Jesus said or did, however, would have ever contradicted what is written in Scripture.

I truly believe that what we need to know about God has been revealed to us in His word, and ultimately, in His Son, Jesus Christ.

"God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high..." - Hebrews 1:1-3


Now, what we as Christians are to do is earnestly contend for the faith, once delivered to the saints, keeping watch over our doctrine, testing all things so we are not deceived or led astray.

"Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints." - Jude 1:3


"Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee." - 1 Timothy 4:16

"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world." - 1 John 4:1

Jesus Himself warned of coming deception:

"And Jesus answered and said unto them, 'Take heed that no man deceive you.

For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.'" - Matthew 24:4-5


"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." - Matthew 24:24

 
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Goatee

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I agree but the Holy Spirit is very much among the church. God can reveal things at any time.

In the Catholic Church, many saints have either seen Jesus or heard Him, or others and they have always tested what they saw or heard with scripture.

St Padre Pio was one.
 
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amariselle

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I agree but the Holy Spirit is very much among the church. God can reveal things at any time.

In the Catholic Church, many saints have either seen Jesus or heard Him, or others and they have always tested what they saw or heard with scripture.

St Padre Pio was one.

What do you think about these verses in regard to people claiming to see or hear Jesus?

"Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Behold, I have told you before.

Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."
- Matthew 24:23-27

Unfortunately history and the present day are rife with people claiming to personally see or hear Jesus (watch Sid Roth's "It's Supernatural" for example) Jesus said, however, that when He comes again, it will not be secretive or to one person, but the entire world will see Him return.

And yes, the Holy Spirit guides individual believers, but He does not contradict Scripture.

As for the people you refer to always testing what they heard with Scripture, why then are so many of the doctrines in the Catholic Church at odds with Scripture?

It's an honest question, though I know from previous conversations, that we will not agree.

God bless
 
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Goatee

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What do you think about these verses in regard to people claiming to see or hear Jesus?

"Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Behold, I have told you before.

Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."
- Matthew 24:23-27

Unfortunately history and the present day are rife with people claiming to personally see or hear Jesus (watch Sid Roth's "It's Supernatural" for example) Jesus said, however, that when He comes again, it will not be secretive or to one person, but the entire world will see Him return.

And yes, the Holy Spirit guides individual believers, but He does not contradict Scripture.

As for the people you refer to always testing what they heard with Scripture, why then are so many of the doctrines in the Catholic Church at odds with Scripture?

It's an honest question, though I know from previous conversations, that we will not agree.

God bless

You need to put it in context. Here is the full verse:

Matthew 24:21-25
21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 And if those days had not been shortened, no human being would be saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 Then if any one says to you, ‘Lo, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. 25 Lo, I have told you beforehand.

This is talking about the great tribulation.

I am positive that Jesus has appeared to many throughout history. We have many saints that testify to this. Non have contradicted scripture. Many have been tested as it says in scripture.

Catholics do not believe the doctrines are at odds with scripture though. That is what non-Catholics believe.
 
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amariselle

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You need to put it in context. Here is the full verse:

Matthew 24:21-25
21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 And if those days had not been shortened, no human being would be saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 Then if any one says to you, ‘Lo, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. 25 Lo, I have told you beforehand.

This is talking about the great tribulation.

I am positive that Jesus has appeared to many throughout history. We have many saints that testify to this. Non have contradicted scripture. Many have been tested as it says in scripture.

Catholics do not believe the doctrines are at odds with scripture though. That is what non-Catholics believe.

I've already mentioned many Catholic doctrines that are at odds with Scripture (not sure if it was on this thread or another)

Also, I am well aware of the context of those verses.

The point remains, Jesus made it absolutely clear that when He returns, everyone will see Him. It will not be a secret or a personal visit to a single person or even a group of people.
 
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Goatee

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I've already mentioned many Catholic doctrines that are at odds with Scripture (not sure if it was on this thread or another)

Also, I am well aware of the context of those verses.

The point remains, Jesus made it absolutely clear that when He returns, everyone will see Him. It will not be a secret or a personal visit to a single person or even a group of people.

Well, I know you think they are at odds with scripture but obviously as a Catholic I don't.

Jesus is with us. Jesus has shown himself to many. I believe this. God works in mysterious ways my friend.
 
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PeaceB

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"And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen." - John 21:25

Nothing else that Jesus said or did, however, would have ever contradicted what is written in Scripture.

Absolutely. You believe that Catholic faith and practice contradicts Scrioture. I believe that Protestant faith and practice contradicts Scripture. Were it otherwise you would be Catholic and I would be a Protestant.

I truly believe that what we need to know about God has been revealed to us in His word, and ultimately, in His Son, Jesus Christ.
That's cool, but Scripture does not teach that. In the first place you need to know what books belong in the Bible and which do not, and the books that we recognize as Scripture do not tell you that. You get that information from outside of the Bible.

If by "need to know" you mean "need to know in order to be saved" then John 3 or Acts 2 would be enough. But we still read the rest of Scripture. At least from a Catholic standpoint, it is the same with Tradition.
 
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amariselle

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Well, I know you think they are at odds with scripture but obviously as a Catholic I don't.

Jesus is with us. Jesus has shown himself to many. I believe this. God works in mysterious ways my friend.

Sure, but God does not contradict His word (which says that when Jesus returns it will be an event all on earth will witness). We need to be careful with saying "God works in mysterious ways", otherwise we open ourselves up to pretty much anything and run the risk of lacking discernment. Many people have done so, and as a result have gone down paths of mysticism. You mentioned Padre Pio, from what I know of him, he was a mystic, as was Teresa of Avila and many others, throughout history, and even today.

Many strange things seem to have occured/are occurring in the lives of these and other mystics, but just because something is strange and powerful, or even seems good, does not mean it's of God.

"And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works." - 2 Corinthians 11:14-15

Ultimately, if we believe Padre Pio, Teresa of Avila and others throughout history in regard to their mystical experiences truly being of God, then we should also believe all those who are today claiming to have seen or heard Jesus. Some even claim to have taken trips to Heaven. (If you have ever watched Sid Roth's "It's Supernatural", you know what I'm referring to).

Neo-Gnosticism (which actually is nothing new) is very much alive and well today, and it's growing.
 
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amariselle

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Absolutely. You believe that Catholic faith and practice contradicts Scrioture. I believe that Protestant faith and practice contradicts Scripture. Were it otherwise you would be Catholic and I would be a Protestant.
Fair enough.
That's cool, but Scripture does not teach that. In the first place you need to know what books belong in the Bible and which do not, and the books that we recognize as Scripture do not tell you that. You get that information from outside of the Bible.

Actually I quoted Scripture that directly teaches that. Here it is again:

"God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high..." - Hebrews 1:1-3

Also, I do not get "that information from outside the Bible", but rather the Bible's very existence demonstrates the faithfulness of God in preserving His word, which He divinely inspired men to write. The Bible is not the product of tradition, it is the very word of God.

If by "need to know" you mean "need to know in order to be saved" then John 3 or Acts 2 would be enough. But we still read the rest of Scripture. At least from a Catholic standpoint, it is the same with Tradition.

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." - 2 Timothy 3:16-17
 
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Erose

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I mean no disrespect but do you not remember our discussion on this very question?????

NO Jesus was not born in Sin. He had no sin nature to be born with. He was incarnated with a God /divine nature.

I know what you are trying to work out but it does not work my friend. Jesus being born with a God nature from Mary does not make Mary sinless.

That kind of thinking would be the same as standing in your garage and calling yourself a car. It simply does not fly.
So you are saying then that Jesus wasn't truly a man then? That He wasn't born in the state of original sin only because He wasn't truly a man? Is that really an argument that you want to us?
 
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Erose

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It's a common response -- that one disagreeing with the RCC doesn't know it's teachings. I't kind of that last straw thing that gets thrown up. I guarantee this isn't the last time you'll be told that.
When you display ignorance, that that is the common response. And much ignorance has been shone in this thread.
 
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Major1

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So you are saying then that Jesus wasn't truly a man then? That He wasn't born in the state of original sin only because He wasn't truly a man? Is that really an argument that you want to us?

Why are you putting words into my mouth????

Anyone, and everyone except it appears YOU, understood exactly what I said.

But lets do it again just for YOU!

Jesus was incarnated as the God-Man. He was 100% God and 100% Man.
However, He was not incarnated with a sin nature because He was in fact God which is why He was incarnated through a womb which had not been defiled by man.

1 Tim. 3:16 states..........
"Great is the mystery of Godliness, God was manifested in the flesh."

Since Jesus did not come through the normal means of conception he had no sin nature. Yet he was fully human, feeling the emotions we do, his body got tired, he became hungry and needed sleep just like anyone else.

While He had the choice to sin He did not have the ability. The humanity of Christ could never be separate from or unsupported from His deity. With Adam there was only one nature with Christ he was supported by and anointed by deity as the Son of God.

In our fallen humanity we cannot act apart from our nature. Jesus however did not have the sin nature that we have. He was free to act perfectly in all situations. He acted upon his sinless nature obeying another's will, that of his Father. He was not able to go against God's will because He did not have the nature of sin to have that possibility.

He knew no sin (2 Cor.5:21) meaning He gained no knowledge of sin through experience. He came like a man (Rom.8:3) looking like anyone else yet without the sinful nature, there was nothing of himself on the outside that attracted people. As Jesus took upon himself another nature of humanity it did not have the indwelling of sin that marred man (Phil.2:5-8).
 
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Major1

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When you display ignorance, that that is the common response. And much ignorance has been shone in this thread.

Now that is something I can agree with. Most of what I have seen here is actually taught in children's Bible study at most Protestant churches.
 
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amariselle

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When you display ignorance, that that is the common response. And much ignorance has been shone in this thread.

Actually much Scriptural support has been given for the stance people take against the traditions of the Catholic Church.

It is in fact a very common response to reply that people just don't have any idea what they are talking about/they don't truly understand Catholicism.

Many people here do in fact understand, and many have done a lot of research.
 
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Erose

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In whatever ways, and by whichever means He's chosen. Interestingly, you may also want to research how the Catholic Church actually tried to keep the Scriptures from people. Pretty eye-opening.
And completely false revisionist history.
 
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Erose

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Actually much Scriptural support has been given for the stance people take against the traditions of the Catholic Church.
And much Scriptural support has been given for the Traditions of the Catholic Church.

It is in fact a very common response to reply that people just don't have any idea what they are talking about/they don't truly understand Catholicism.
When you don't display a working knowledge of a subject you are attacking then that is what it is. Your right there are some here who are non-Catholic who display a fairly good knowledge of the Catholic Faith. You are not one of them. I'm sorry that is just my observation. It isn't an attack, it is what it is. In all honesty I would concede that there is much about your individual church's teachings that I would be ignorant of. Granted I'm not even sure what church or denomination that you are a member of which doesn't help.

Many people here do in fact understand, and many have done a lot of research.
Researching anti-Catholic websites is not really researching, as most if not all display nothing but trash.
 
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Albion

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"It is in fact a very common response to reply that people just don't have any idea what they are talking about/they don't truly understand Catholicism.

Many people here do in fact understand, and many have done a lot of research."


You are quite right about that. Catholics are taught two ideas that some choose to take into the public arena--

1. Anyone who disagrees with any Catholic teaching must be ignorant of what the teaching really is.

2. Most "Non-Catholics" have, as a pastime, lying about the Catholic Church.
 
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amariselle

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Why are you putting words into my mouth????

Anyone, and everyone except it appears YOU, understood exactly what I said.

But lets do it again just for YOU!

Jesus was incarnated as the God-Man. He was 100% God and 100% Man.
However, He was not incarnated with a sin nature because He was in fact God which is why He was incarnated through a womb which had not been defiled by man.

1 Tim. 3:16 states..........
"Great is the mystery of Godliness, God was manifested in the flesh."

Since Jesus did not come through the normal means of conception he had no sin nature. Yet he was fully human, feeling the emotions we do, his body got tired, he became hungry and needed sleep just like anyone else.

While He had the choice to sin He did not have the ability. The humanity of Christ could never be separate from or unsupported from His deity. With Adam there was only one nature with Christ he was supported by and anointed by deity as the Son of God.

In our fallen humanity we cannot act apart from our nature. Jesus however did not have the sin nature that we have. He was free to act perfectly in all situations. He acted upon his sinless nature obeying another's will, that of his Father. He was not able to go against God's will because He did not have the nature of sin to have that possibility.

He knew no sin (2 Cor.5:21) meaning He gained no knowledge of sin through experience. He came like a man (Rom.8:3) looking like anyone else yet without the sinful nature, there was nothing of himself on the outside that attracted people. As Jesus took upon himself another nature of humanity it did not have the indwelling of sin that marred man (Phil.2:5-8).

Exactly!

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." -Romans 8:1-4
 
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