I regret trying to create a discussion.

holyrokker · Jul 24, 2017

Rick Otto said:
You have a wonderful imagination.
I just read the first six chapters of 1 Corinthians looking for Paul talking about Christians selling themselves. Not there. Never even heard anything like it before now.
The very idea is bizarre to me, friend.

Come on Rick Otto. You know better than that.

Look into the history if Corinth. It's basic hermeneutics.
Lucius Mummius leveled the city in 146 BC, killed the men, and sold the women and children into slavery.
Julius Caesar refounded the city in 44BC and populated it with freed slaves.

The residents of the city (and the surrounding region) were very proud of their heritage as free people.

No one was going to enslave them again.

By using the imagery of being "bought at a price", Paul is alluding to slavery: but not a slavery to men. Instead, he is demonstrating that they are slaves to Christ. Christ is their master, so they are under obligation to honor Him.

They are not free (and neither are we) to place ourselves under bondage to sin once again. It is not an option.

miknik5 · Jul 24, 2017

holyrokker said:
I'll discuss Romans 3

Paul is addressing the idea that God considers those who live by faith to be righteous.

He also addresses the idea the Jesus Himself is the atoning sacrifice that allows humanity to be in a right relationship with God (replacing the sacrifices required by the Law).

Paul is also clear that God had been forgiving sin long before Jesus died on the cross.

The death of Jesus is not occasion for forgiveness. His death is the establishment and maintenance of a New Covenant.

And how did you think THAT NEW COVENANT was established sir?

JohnRabbit · Jul 24, 2017

AnticipateHisComing said:
You can't agree but you can't refute my argument either. Understand that scripture must come to a consensus when all verses on a subject are considered. You take John 1:18 in absolute terms and ignore all other scripture.

When Jesus was on this earth, could he be in two places at the same time? Luke 2 has the glory of God the Father being shown to the shepherds while Jesus was born in Bethlehem. At Jesus' transfiguration, Matthew 17 it has the appearance of God the Father in a bright cloud such that the disciples were terrified. Acts 7:56 has Stephen seeing Jesus at the right hand of God the Father. Revelation says the saints in heaven see God.

Understand that the face is where the glory of a person is. Exodus 33:20 clarifies John's statements that no one in the flesh can see the ultimate glory of God the Father which is in his face. We in our corrupted flesh can not handle the true glory of God. When we die and go to heaven we will be glorified and will then be able to see the face of God the Father.

Yes, Jesus is the mediator between God and man. That does not mean that God the Father never made some kind of presence on earth.

so then why did Jesus have to DECLARE Him?

and you're saying that the shepherds saw Him?

and now i guess john don't know what he's saying when he wrote:

1 John 4:12(NKJV)
12No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us.

see? i don't ignore all the other scripture!

please show me how does anyone get pass ANY TIME!

miknik5 · Jul 24, 2017

holyrokker said:
Really? in what universe is payment of a debt the same as forgiveness?

In GOD's
What does GOD need?
money?

mkgal1 · Jul 24, 2017

pescador said:
If you want to "feel religious, be my guest." Personally, I don't care much for creeds. I believe what the Bible clearly says, not something that people made up.

pescador said:
Because that is what the Bible clearly says! God has always required that the penalty for severe sins be blood. Jesus' blood was the penalty that God required for all sin, past, present, and future. How else do you think that people's sins have been, are, and will be forgiven?

.....and how does it make YOU feel (since you presumed how *I* feel) to believe that the "Bible clearly says" God has always required that the penalty for sin be blood (while dividing God and Jesus)? Doesn't that make God a murderer of His own son? Isn't that contrary to what He said to Moses ("thou shall not kill")....and contrary to His disallowance of David building a temple for Him based on David shedding blood?

But God said to me, 'You must not build a temple to honor me, for you are a warrior and have spilled blood.'~1 Chronicles 28:3

Wouldn't God be a "warrior against sin" and we could justify Him for "spilling blood"? Why the different standard?

pescador · Jul 24, 2017

holyrokker said:
I'll discuss Romans 3

Paul is addressing the idea that God considers those who live by faith to be righteous.

He also addresses the idea the Jesus Himself is the atoning sacrifice that allows humanity to be in a right relationship with God (replacing the sacrifices required by the Law).

Paul is also clear that God had been forgiving sin long before Jesus died on the cross.

The death of Jesus is not occasion for forgiveness. His death is the establishment and maintenance of a New Covenant.

Really? Here is what Matthew wrote, "And after taking the cup and giving thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you, for this is my blood, the blood of the covenant, that is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."

miknik5 · Jul 24, 2017

JohnRabbit said:
so then why did Jesus have to DECLARE Him?

and you're saying that the shepherds saw Him?

and now i guess john don't know what he's saying when he wrote:

1 John 4:12(NKJV)
12No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us.

see? i don't ignore all the scripture!

please show me how does anyone get pass ANY TIME!

Because JESUS came in the flesh, the full and holy glory of GOD covered in our covering not only to show us THE FATHER but to model for all sons of GOD the exact relationship they are to have with THE FATHER who is in Heaven

miknik5 · Jul 24, 2017

mkgal1 said:
.....and how does it make YOU feel (since you presumed how *I* feel) to believe that the "Bible clearly says" God has always required that the penalty for sin be blood (while dividing God and Jesus)? Doesn't that make God a murderer of His own son? Isn't that contrary to what He said to Moses ("thou shall not kill")....and contrary to His disallowance of David building a temple for Him based on David shedding blood?

But God said to me, 'You must not build a temple to honor me, for you are a warrior and have spilled blood.'~1 Chronicles 28:3

Wouldn't God be a "warrior against sin" and we could justify Him for "spilling blood"? Why the different standard?

Did GOD know beforehand that mankind would sin?

mkgal1 · Jul 24, 2017

pescador said:
That make absolutely no sense. Is God playing games with us by speaking in code?

Have you not read this? Not "code"....not "playing games"....it's metaphors/parables....the Bible is FULL of them:

That is why I use these parables, For they look, but they don't really see. They hear, but they don't really listen or understand.~Matthew 13:13

pescador · Jul 24, 2017

mkgal1 said:
.....and how does it make YOU feel (since you presumed how *I* feel) to believe that the "Bible clearly says" God has always required that the penalty for sin be blood (while dividing God and Jesus)? Doesn't that make God a murderer of His own son? Isn't that contrary to what He said to Moses ("thou shall not kill")....and contrary to His disallowance of David building a temple for Him based on David shedding blood?

But God said to me, 'You must not build a temple to honor me, for you are a warrior and have spilled blood.'~1 Chronicles 28:3

Wouldn't God be a "warrior against sin" and we could justify Him for "spilling blood"? Why the different standard?

God permitted his own son to be murdered as a sacrifice for sin. That's what the Bible says. You can deny it if you want, but what it says it says.

miknik5 · Jul 24, 2017

A high priest has to enter in in order to mediate for the sins of the people

Not anyone could enter into the holy of Holies

No one could just enter into the HOLY PRESENCE of GOD

miknik5 · Jul 24, 2017

pescador said:
God permitted his own son to be murdered as a sacrifice for sin. That's what the Bible says. You can deny it if you want, but what it says it says.

And the call to Abraham was GOD's way of showing man HIS plan from the beginning

GOD knows our limits humanity
HE knows we need visible signs and representations to understand HIS HIGHER and HIDDEN TRUTHS

That call to Abraham that he should sacrifice his promised son was a picture and reenactment of THE SACRIFICE of THE PROMISED SON

Abraham may not have understood what he was called to do them

But he does now
And he knows he was in service to the generation who would benefit from the PROMISE planned from
The beginning. That generation who would look back and understand that from the beginning GOD "hid" HIS SON throughout HIS written WORD

pescador · Jul 24, 2017

mkgal1 said:
Have you not read this? Not "code"....not "playing games"....it's metaphors/parables....the Bible is FULL of them:

That is why I use these parables, For they look, but they don't really see. They hear, but they don't really listen or understand.~Matthew 13:13

Parables are used in the New Testament to explain certain concepts so that "those who have ears to hear" will understand the teachings. Matthew wrote that Jesus said, "For this reason I speak to them in parables: Although they see they do not see, and although they hear they do not hear nor do they understand." God enabled those whom he foreknew to understand what was said. (And Jesus chastised his disciples for not understanding them.)

However, the parables are not the bulk of the Bible by any means. They are a small part of the Gospels.

JohnRabbit · Jul 24, 2017

miknik5 said:
Because JESUS came in the flesh, the full and holy glory of GOD covered in our covering not only to show us THE FATHER but to model for all sons of GOD the exact relationship they are to have with THE FATHER who is in Heaven

good post!

miknik5 · Jul 24, 2017

mkgal1 said:
Have you not read this? Not "code"....not "playing games"....it's metaphors/parables....the Bible is FULL of them:

That is why I use these parables, For they look, but they don't really see. They hear, but they don't really listen or understand.~Matthew 13:13

Actually HE said that the secrets of the Kingdom have been given to you

But not to all

Those who look and don't see and hear but don't hear are those who are fulfilling the prophecy of Isaiah

Be forever seeing but never seeing
Ever hearing but never hearing

Lest you should understand with the heart

Turn
And HE should "HEAL" them

What do you think another word could be for "HEALING"

miknik5 · Jul 24, 2017

miknik5 said:
Did GOD know beforehand that mankind would sin?

Mkgal?

GOD knew beforehand before HE created Adam/mankind that we would sin

HE knew there would be a day when we would eat (of the tree forbidden us)

GOD can see one day as a thousand years

But not only did HE foreknew our fall

HE more importantly knew the victory in HIS SON

By the way...blood as a covering was there from the beginning

holyrokker · Jul 24, 2017

So many tangents.

My initial intent was to discuss the idea that "Jesus paid for our sins."

It is not a biblical concept. Instead, it was introduced into the protestant church and is now a filter, or lens, through which many people view passages of scripture related to the idea of atonement and redemption.

I hope that there are still some here who will partake in a civil discussion.

If so, I welcome such.

mkgal1 · Jul 24, 2017

Rick Otto said:
The people who mistakenly believed those people who have pretended to be "The Church" for thousands of years.
Escape Churchianity now.

Interesting you say that to me. I LEFT the institutional protestant evangelical church years ago....and found what I believe is the Spirit of a Loving God (and don't have to toss out the creeds or any of the Bible). The Franciscans believed much in the way of the Eastern Orthodox church (it's the West that's changed). The two streams have run parallel for thousands of years.

mkgal1 · Jul 24, 2017

miknik5 said:
Mkgal?

GOD knew beforehand before HE created Adam/mankind that we would sin

HE knew there would be a day when we would eat (of the tree forbidden us)

GOD can see one day as a thousand years

But not only did HE foreknew our fall

HE more importantly knew the victory in HIS SON

Right. I totally agree with you---He wasn't "surprised" by sin/the fall. From the teaching of John Duns Scotus....."Christ was the plan A from the very beginning":

Richard Rohr said:
Franciscans never believed that “blood atonement” was required for God to love us. Our teacher, John Duns Scotus (1266-1308), said Christ was Plan A from the very beginning (Colossians 1:15-20, Ephesians 1:3-14). Christ wasn’t a mere Plan B after the first humans sinned, which is the way most people seem to understand the significance of the death and resurrection of Jesus. The Great Mystery of Incarnation could not be a mere mop-up exercise, a problem solving technique, or dependent on human beings messing up.

Scotus taught that the Enfleshment of God had to proceed from God’s perfect love and God’s perfect and absolute freedom (John 1:1-18), rather than from any mistake of ours. Did God intend no meaning or purpose for creation during the first 14.8 billion years? Was it all just empty, waiting for sinful humans to set the only real drama into motion? Did the sun, moon, and galaxies have no divine significance? The fish, the birds, the animals were just waiting for humans to appear? Was there no Divine Blueprint (“Logos”) from the beginning? Surely this is the extreme hubris and anthropomorphism of the human species!

The substitutionary atonement “theory” (and that’s all it is) seems to imply that the Eternal Christ’s epiphany in Jesus is a mere afterthought when the first plan did not work out. I know there are many temple metaphors of atonement, satisfaction, ransom, “paying the price,” and “opening the gates”; but do know they are just that—metaphors of transformation and transitioning. Too many Christians understood these in a transactional way instead of a transformational way.~https://cac.org/incarnation-instead-of-atonement-2016-02-12/

.....written in another article:

Life Assurance Ministries said:
What if the incarnation was always the point? What if God’s eternal purpose was always to wed Himself to His creation via the person of Jesus? What if the incarnation isn’t just a desperate effort to salvage a botched job, but God’s eternal plan for the Son and for the adoption of many heirs through Jesus? What if Christmas has always been Plan A?~God has no Plan B

JohnRabbit · Jul 24, 2017

pescador said:
Yes. The verse you refer to says, "No one has ever seen God. The only one, himself God, who is in closest fellowship with the Father, has made God known." You said that nobody knew that God existed. That is contrary to what the Bible says. Period.

so why did Jesus have to declare Him?

I regret trying to create a discussion.

Contributor

"Let not your heart be troubled"

just trying to understand

"Let not your heart be troubled"

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Wise old man

"Let not your heart be troubled"

"Let not your heart be troubled"

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Wise old man

"Let not your heart be troubled"

"Let not your heart be troubled"

Wise old man

just trying to understand

"Let not your heart be troubled"

"Let not your heart be troubled"

Contributor

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

just trying to understand

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