Conversation on sin with Romans 7-18 through 8-16

1gh2g3f4 · Jul 23, 2017

i would like to start a conversation on this section of romans in particular sin that he is talking about here... and in the fashion or mindset when this sin is committed (read on and lets talk about it let us use some discernment and other verses also if able.)

Romans 7-18-8-16

For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me.
For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?
Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin. Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you. Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation--but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children....

RDKirk · Jul 23, 2017

You ask the question, "Is it your flesh or is it you?"

Well, your flesh is you.

James reflects on this more succinctly:

When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

The most significant point of both scriptures is there is not a devil on anyone's shoulders, it's us. The embryo of our sin is within our bodies.

We are like Dr Strangelove fighting down his Nazi salute:

tdidymas · Jul 23, 2017

alhaynes86 said:
i would like to start a conversation on this section of romans in particular sin that he is talking about here... and in the fashion or mindset when this sin is committed (read on and lets talk about it let us use some discernment and other verses also if able.)

Romans 7-18-8-16

For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me.
For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?
Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin. Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you. Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation--but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children....

Paul is not talking about a particular sin in this passage, he is speaking of sin in general. A specific example he gave in ch. 7 was coveting, but this whole passage is talking about whatever sin besets the reader.

Some people differ on Paul's description of being subject to sin in ch. 7; some say that he is describing his condition before he was converted; but others say that he could not experience that battle until after he was converted. Certainly people could argue both ways, as in my experience I seemed to have a battle on both sides of the chronological event. Perhaps a non-polemic view would be a better way of seeing it: since we are on a journey ("The Way"), this passage is describing the journey of a believer, and we could say that it is a description of the Christian life in the ongoing sanctification of the believer, that we are being delivered from sin's hold on us. This is why the Christian life is sometimes described as: (1) already saved - from the penalty of sin, (2) being saved - from the power of sin, and (3) will be saved - from the presence of sin.

Finally, I think the NIV errs in this one point - where the Grk "sarx" is translated "sinful nature." It means "flesh," not "sinful nature." Although Paul's usage of the phrase "law of sin" has the meaning of a principle that we commonly call "sinful nature" (which is a valid paraphrase), the term "sarx" in 7:18 et. al. actually means "flesh" which involves the chemical processes of the body. Paul is not using that term as a metaphor in this case, therefore it should be translated literally as in most translations. Therefore, we conclude that sin resides in the mortal body; but sin is also a systemic problem, since the processes and momentum of sin resides in families, societies, governments, etc. However, we must acknowledge that sin could not reside in cultures unless it originated (or was sustained) in individuals in those cultures. Therefore, sin does indeed reside in the mortal bodies of individuals, thus Paul states "the body is dead because of sin" (i.e. as good as dead).

Furthermore, the phrase "the mind set on the flesh" is a person who lets their flesh rule them - i.e. a person who lets whatever whimsical feeling tell them what to do. Every adrenaline rush, every exciting idea, every angry thought, every lustful dream, every hormone etc. ad infinitum. This really hits home to where we live and breathe, and tells us in a practical way how deep our deliverance in Christ is needed, as well as what kind of faith we ought to be living by.
TD

1gh2g3f4 · Jul 23, 2017

you seem to be skipping a few things actually a lot of things here.. like the entirety of the first verses...
and his past doesn't seem to have anything to with what he keeps on doing.. most of what the phasasse's got wrong was things like oral tradition.. corban.. sitting themselves higher than others.. none of these things he kept doing.. instead he actually preached against this.... so much so that he even scolded peter for distancing himself from gentles.. or people who wasn't circumcised.. and as it says.... why do i do the things i do not want to do.. and this i keep on doing... so he speaks of a sin of the flesh that he cant seem to escape... (can any of you here say they have escaped all their sin???) no? so why would you think paul has escaped all his sins of the flesh... the flesh which we all live in.. did he escape his flesh? no... do you remember what jesus himself said about the division of these things on the very night he was taken captive??? the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak... jesus seen this.. why would you or paul speak in such ways as to say that you have escaped all sin? when you live in the flesh.. do you remember jesus saying what is impossible with man is possible with god....
Luke 18:26-27 what does this infer? that indeed somethings with man (our own works). it is impossible..
but only through god it is possible.. what was impossible and possible??? salvation.... how is salvation possible with god? only through jesus... where does it say that you can do it yourself??? hear this... it says this.. work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.... why is salvation worked out with fear and trembling??? because we know we are not worthy and we can not obtain our own salvation... THIS DOES NOT MEAN SIN WITHOUT CARE!!!! no.. it means that you will indeed fail because of your flesh (this is what the flesh has inherited death and sin... and if you live by the flesh you will die by it.) and the desires IT has.. those desires may/ may not be from your soul... but they come from the flesh.. what was we before our flesh but a soul? was life breathed into this vessel (flesh) or was it breathed into the soul? it was breathed into the flesh...... there is a divide we are not just flesh and bone... there is a division.. the flesh will return the dust and the soul will return to the creator... from the dust it came so it shall return... did our soul come from the dust? no.... this verse here has NOTHING to do with him being a pharisee.. it has everything to do with him being a man just like anyone here..

tdidymas · Jul 24, 2017

alhaynes86 said:
you seem to be skipping a few things actually a lot of things here.. like the entirety of the first verses...
and his past doesn't seem to have anything to with what he keeps on doing.. most of what the phasasse's got wrong was things like oral tradition.. corban.. sitting themselves higher than others.. none of these things he kept doing.. instead he actually preached against this.... so much so that he even scolded peter for distancing himself from gentles.. or people who wasn't circumcised.. and as it says.... why do i do the things i do not want to do.. and this i keep on doing... so he speaks of a sin of the flesh that he cant seem to escape... (can any of you here say they have escaped all their sin???) no? so why would you think paul has escaped all his sins of the flesh... the flesh which we all live in.. did he escape his flesh? no... do you remember what jesus himself said about the division of these things on the very night he was taken captive??? the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak... jesus seen this.. why would you or paul speak in such ways as to say that you have escaped all sin? when you live in the flesh.. do you remember jesus saying what is impossible with man is possible with god....
Luke 18:26-27 what does this infer? that indeed somethings with man (our own works). it is impossible..
but only through god it is possible.. what was impossible and possible??? salvation.... how is salvation possible with god? only through jesus... where does it say that you can do it yourself??? hear this... it says this.. work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.... why is salvation worked out with fear and trembling??? because we know we are not worthy and we can not obtain our own salvation... THIS DOES NOT MEAN SIN WITHOUT CARE!!!! no.. it means that you will indeed fail because of your flesh (this is what the flesh has inherited death and sin... and if you live by the flesh you will die by it.) and the desires IT has.. those desires may/ may not be from your soul... but they come from the flesh.. what was we before our flesh but a soul? was life breathed into this vessel (flesh) or was it breathed into the soul? it was breathed into the flesh...... there is a divide we are not just flesh and bone... there is a division.. the flesh will return the dust and the soul will return to the creator... from the dust it came so it shall return... did our soul come from the dust? no.... this verse here has NOTHING to do with him being a pharisee.. it has everything to do with him being a man just like anyone here..

Who are you talking to?
TD

pescador · Aug 2, 2017

tdidymas said:
Paul is not talking about a particular sin in this passage, he is speaking of sin in general. A specific example he gave in ch. 7 was coveting, but this whole passage is talking about whatever sin besets the reader.

Some people differ on Paul's description of being subject to sin in ch. 7; some say that he is describing his condition before he was converted; but others say that he could not experience that battle until after he was converted. Certainly people could argue both ways, as in my experience I seemed to have a battle on both sides of the chronological event. Perhaps a non-polemic view would be a better way of seeing it: since we are on a journey ("The Way"), this passage is describing the journey of a believer, and we could say that it is a description of the Christian life in the ongoing sanctification of the believer, that we are being delivered from sin's hold on us. This is why the Christian life is sometimes described as: (1) already saved - from the penalty of sin, (2) being saved - from the power of sin, and (3) will be saved - from the presence of sin.

Finally, I think the NIV errs in this one point - where the Grk "sarx" is translated "sinful nature." It means "flesh," not "sinful nature." Although Paul's usage of the phrase "law of sin" has the meaning of a principle that we commonly call "sinful nature" (which is a valid paraphrase), the term "sarx" in 7:18 et. al. actually means "flesh" which involves the chemical processes of the body. Paul is not using that term as a metaphor in this case, therefore it should be translated literally as in most translations. Therefore, we conclude that sin resides in the mortal body; but sin is also a systemic problem, since the processes and momentum of sin resides in families, societies, governments, etc. However, we must acknowledge that sin could not reside in cultures unless it originated (or was sustained) in individuals in those cultures. Therefore, sin does indeed reside in the mortal bodies of individuals, thus Paul states "the body is dead because of sin" (i.e. as good as dead).

Furthermore, the phrase "the mind set on the flesh" is a person who lets their flesh rule them - i.e. a person who lets whatever whimsical feeling tell them what to do. Every adrenaline rush, every exciting idea, every angry thought, every lustful dream, every hormone etc. ad infinitum. This really hits home to where we live and breathe, and tells us in a practical way how deep our deliverance in Christ is needed, as well as what kind of faith we ought to be living by.
TD

Here is a dictionary definition of "flesh"...

1. the soft substance of a human or other animal body, consisting of muscle and fat.
2. muscular and fatty tissue.
3. this substance or tissue in animals, viewed as an article of food,
usually excluding fish and sometimes fowl; meat.

Clearly sarx is not referring to this. It is difficult to compare the flesh and the spirit literally. The NIV does a pretty good job of rendering sarx as the sinful nature, as opposed to just our muscle and fat.

tdidymas · Aug 2, 2017

pescador said:
Here is a dictionary definition of "flesh"...

1. the soft substance of a human or other animal body, consisting of muscle and fat.
2. muscular and fatty tissue.
3. this substance or tissue in animals, viewed as an article of food,
usually excluding fish and sometimes fowl; meat.

Clearly sarx is not referring to this. It is difficult to compare the flesh and the spirit literally. The NIV does a pretty good job of rendering sarx as the sinful nature, as opposed to just our muscle and fat.

Your use of a modern dictionary (only) to define the term is causing you some confusion about what I am saying. My point is that Rom. 7:18 is one place (among a few others) where the NIV paraphrase of the term is erroneous. I am not limiting the definitions of the terms of Biblical texts to modern day dictionary definitions. One important rule of hermeneutics is that terms are defined by how they are used in the context, which you apparently agree, except that you have been confused by the dictionary definition, and are not taking into consideration the various ways that Paul uses the term.

Some ways in which Paul uses the term sarx are:
1 Cor. 6:16 - physical/soulish union
1 Cor. 15:39 - physical body
Rom. 4:1 - human physical heritage
Rom. 6:19 - psychological makeup (again, physical/soulish)
Rom. 7:5 - "in the flesh" = controlled by feelings in the body (as opposed to being controlled by God's commands)
Rom. 7:14 - "of flesh" = controlled by feelings in the body (as opposed to being controlled by God's commands)
Rom. 7:25 - actions done in the physical body

I could be much more exhaustive. IMHO if you cannot agree with these usages defined here, I think you will be hard-pressed to have a consistent and unified approach to the scripture, which is a serious problem for most Christians I have met.

In my experience with Christendom, the term "sinful nature" is often used as a nebulous excuse for lack of repentence, as the term itself is rather nebulous. The point I am trying to make is that in order to mature in the Christian life, we have to properly define terms according to what is real, and this is what Paul is trying to do also in Rom. 6-8. Thus, the "sinful nature" is a dysfunction in the physical and psychological makeup of people, "dysfunction" meaning that we cannot do what is right all the time according to what God desires and demands of people because of our attachment (or addiction) to feelings of the body. Therefore, we are our own worst enemy, that is, our own body we live in; thus does Paul say "who shall deliver me from this body of death?" And that body is the flesh he is talking about.

All the more reason to understand Paul's terminology "in the flesh" and "in the Spirit" as to how we go about living our lives. Do we let our feelings be our master (living in/according to the flesh), or do we live by faith letting the Spirit and the word of God be the master of our actions (living in/according to the Spirit)?

Rom. 8 became much more meaningful to me after I came to understand these terms more correctly. I'm just trying to help others get there too.
TD

RDKirk · Aug 2, 2017

tdidymas said:
All the more reason to understand Paul's terminology "in the flesh" and "in the Spirit" as to how we go about living our lives. Do we let our feelings be our master (living in/according to the flesh), or do we live by faith letting the Spirit and the word of God be the master of our actions (living in/according to the Spirit)?

Rom. 8 became much more meaningful to me after I came to understand these terms more correctly. I'm just trying to help others get there too.
TD

Yes.

It's not easy to determine how much of Paul's writing was his acceptance of "secular" Greek philosophical concepts (which we know he knew because he was able to quote Greek philosophers) and how much was him "being Greek to the Greeks" in deference of explaining that which was spiritual to their understanding.

However, either way: Paul was limited in how he could explain that his mind was subject to both spiritual and material stimuli. His body reacted strongly to the physical stimuli he had known since birth so that he was still prone to do that which his mind--reacting to spiritual stimuli new to him since his conversion--knew he should not do.

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Conversation on sin with Romans 7-18 through 8-16

if you sin and HATE this sin but can not seem to stop is this your flesh that sins or is it you?

yes

no

1gh2g3f4

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RDKirk

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tdidymas

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1gh2g3f4

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tdidymas

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pescador

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