John 3:16 and limited attonment.

sdowney717 · Jul 21, 2017

ViaCrucis said:
Don't stop reading in Romans 9, keep reading through Romans 10 and 11. You can't stop reading after Paul says "Jacob I have loved and Esau I have hated" and "What if God, choosing to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great patience the object of His wrath" etc; you have to keep reading because Paul isn't telling us that God picks some for salvation and picks some for damnation, Paul is telling us that all--both Jew and Gentile--are condemned (keep in mind that Paul begins his argument right there in the first chapter, and the Apostle has already stated that "all have sinned", both Jew and Gentile) and so the Apostle continues his argument reaching its climax:

"So that you may not claim to be wiser than you are, brothers and sisters, I want you to understand this mystery: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved; as it is written,

“Out of Zion will come the Deliverer;
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob.”
“And this is my covenant with them,
when I take away their sins.”

As regards the gospel they are enemies of God for your sake; but as regards election they are beloved, for the sake of their ancestors; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Just as you were once disobedient to God but have now received mercy because of their disobedience, so they have now been disobedient in order that, by the mercy shown to you, they too may now receive mercy. For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.

O the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!

“For who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?”
“Or who has given a gift to him,
to receive a gift in return?”

For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be the glory forever. Amen."

Jacob, the elect of God, given the covenants, the promise, and the prophets.
Esau, who did not inherit the birthright.

To Jacob (the Jews) God has mercy.
To Esau (the Gentiles) God has mercy.

God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy, and on whom will He have mercy? On all.

-CryptoLutheran

'God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy, and on whom will He have mercy? On all.'
Not true, God hardens whom He will.
God does not have mercy on all, all the time, all people, all over the world, at every moment of their life on this earth.
Some God destroys. You can not force a blanket continuous mercy from your using some few scriptures to presume that point.

sdowney717 · Jul 21, 2017

God's mercy in your life means your going to be born again, so then God's mercy is your salvation.

1 Peter 1:3
[ A Heavenly Inheritance ] Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

1 Peter 2:10
who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.

Now regarding unbelievers, they do not have mercy from God, only wrath that will destroy them. Earlier the gentiles had not obtained mercy from God to be saved, but after the gospel went out to the nations, some gentiles, here the ones who Peter is addressing, are saved, had obtained mercy from God to be begotten again.
John 6, Jesus is speaking here...
64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

sdowney717 · Jul 21, 2017

Galatians 1New King James Version (NKJV)
Greeting
1 Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead), 2 and all the brethren who are with me,

To the churches of Galatia:

3 Grace to you and peace from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ, 4 who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, 5 to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.

Christ gave Himself for our sins (believers, all the brethren in the church) so that we are delivered from this present evil age, and this was according to God's will that we be saved (those He gave Himself for).

Acts 4:11-12New King James Version (NKJV)
11 This is the ‘stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’ 12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

God must save all His elect He gives to Christ, that is God's will and I am very glad for that.

John 6
38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

ViaCrucis · Jul 22, 2017

sdowney717 said:
'God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy, and on whom will He have mercy? On all.'
Not true, God hardens whom He will.
God does not have mercy on all, all the time, all people, all over the world, at every moment of their life on this earth.
Some God destroys. You can not force a blanket continuous mercy from your using some few scriptures to presume that point.

I think this is demonstrative of one of Calvinism's fatal flaws: In order for Calvinism to work certain passages of Scripture are emphasized to the exclusion of others. Therefore if the Bible says A and B, one must choose to believe either A or B.

That's where the Calvinism-Arminian debate takes place.

The Lutheran position is that A and B are both true, even if we can't reconcile them in our reason.

Yes, that God has mercy on all means exactly that: all means all.

It doesn't mean "God has mercy on some and does not have mercy on others", it means "God has mercy on all".

-CryptoLutheran

Strong in Him · Jul 23, 2017

Innerfire89 said:
So usually when a debate arises about Calvinism and/or limited attonment someone is sure to quote John 3:16 to refute Calvinisim. John 3:16 and limited attonment do not contradict each other, here's why.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son. That whosoever beliveth on him shall not perish but eternal life.
God loves the world doesn't mean Christ died for every person in the world, because world doesn't always mean every person within it. World or kosmos in the Greek has more than one meaning, one of them is the believers only. Another is all nations of the world. If we use the word " world" as meaning everyone and apply it to other verses we see it has multible meanings. Examples- 1 John 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole WORLD lieth in wickedness.
Rev. 13:3 and I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and all the WORLD wondered after the beast.
Scripture tells us who Christ died for.
John 10:15 As the Father knoweth me I know the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Eph. 5:25 Husbands love your wives even as Christ also loved the church and gave himself for it.
Limited attonment isn't cruel and doesn't mean God is unloving but shows us how the work of Christ is unfailing and the maximum effect always.

For me, this whole argument is about the nature of God.

Do I believe that God created everyone in his own image? Yes - Genesis 1:26-27 says so. I do not believe that this applied only to Adm and Eve, it is true for everyone today; all humans are made in the image of God.
Do I believe that everyone is a sinner? Yes - Romans 3:23 says that ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Psalm 14 also says that there is no one who does what is righteous.
Do I believe that everyone needs a Saviour, or is there anyone who is perfect and/or can earn their way into heaven? Yes, everyone needs a Saviour; no, no one can save themselves.
Do I believe that God is love? Yes - 1 John 4:8 says so. God IS love.
Do I believe that God, our Creator, is also a loving heavenly Father? Yes - Scripture says so and Jesus taught us to pray "Our Father" and to call God Abba.

So do I believe that a loving heavenly Father could look at some of the people he created in his own image and say, "I'm not saving you; Jesus didn't die for you"? No - it's not logical, Scriptural or in line with the nature of God. Either he has compassion and shows mercy to those he has made, and rescues us; or he doesn't. Either his love is eternal, 1 Corinthians 13:8, 13, or it is limited and conditional. Either Jesus said that he had come to seek and save the lost, Luke 19:10, or he meant to say, "I have come to save those who I know will believe in me". Either he meant it when he said to his disciples, "what good is it if you love only those who love you?", told them to love their enemies and to be perfect as God is perfect, or he was a hypocrite; asking them to do things that he knows God can't, or won't, do.
Jesus said, "if you fathers, even though you are imperfect, behave this way to your children; how much more will God do these things for you". Would we put forward a man who got someone pregnant, allowed her to keep the child, fed and clothed it but completely disowned it; failed to interact at all with the child and then disinherited it, to be father of the year? No? Then how can we believe that God would be worse than some of our human fathers?

sdowney717 · Jul 23, 2017

ViaCrucis said:
I think this is demonstrative of one of Calvinism's fatal flaws: In order for Calvinism to work certain passages of Scripture are emphasized to the exclusion of others. Therefore if the Bible says A and B, one must choose to believe either A or B.

That's where the Calvinism-Arminian debate takes place.

The Lutheran position is that A and B are both true, even if we can't reconcile them in our reason.

Yes, that God has mercy on all means exactly that: all means all.

It doesn't mean "God has mercy on some and does not have mercy on others", it means "God has mercy on all".

-CryptoLutheran

Exodus 15:13
You in Your mercy have led forth The people whom You have redeemed; You have guided them in Your strength To Your holy habitation.

God has mercy on those He has redeemed, and only them if you consider mercy to be saving grace. And saving grace is the only thing that matters between going to either heaven or hell.

sdowney717 · Jul 23, 2017

When looking up 'mercy' in the NT verses, you will find God being merciful means salvation. And obviously not all are saved, so to them God was not merciful, God gave them over to their sins and they are dead.

Jude 1:21
keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

2 John 1:3
Grace, mercy, and peace will be with you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

1 Peter 1:3
[ A Heavenly Inheritance ] Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

1 Timothy 1:16
However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.

Paul says the reason he obtained mercy, is as a pattern for those who are going to be saved.

Now this verse, 'mercy on all', Paul is teaching about the gentiles versus the jews, so all is all types of people, JEW AND GENTILE, not all each and every single human being, because obviously, not all people are begotten again by His MERCY are they.

Romans 11, speaking of the jew and gentile NATIONS, and God had only reserved for Himself a small part of the jewish nation for salvation in Christ, read Romans 11:5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. ,

A remnant chosen according to grace which means God will show mercy. Not all people obtain grace.

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

v32 does not OBLIGATE God to show mercy, just that all people must have mercy from God to be begotten again, born again, otherwise God gives them over to their sins.

ViaCrucis · Jul 23, 2017

sdowney717 said:
Exodus 15:13
You in Your mercy have led forth The people whom You have redeemed; You have guided them in Your strength To Your holy habitation.

God has mercy on those He has redeemed, and only them if you consider mercy to be saving grace. And saving grace is the only thing that matters between going to either heaven or hell.

When did we receive mercy? Only when we first believed? Or when God sent His Son?

-CryptoLutheran

sdowney717 · Jul 24, 2017

ViaCrucis said:
When did we receive mercy? Only when we first believed? Or when God sent His Son?

-CryptoLutheran

Salvation is personal and individual and is only for those whom He called out from the darkness and into the light. Christ brought us forth as James says. This is only speaking about people who are of God who are not of the world.

Why not let Peter and Paul tell you the truth?
If you were saved, God called you as an individual to form His holy nation.
To even be a part of that, you had to be begotten again, according to HIS MERCY.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

I don't know how anyone could read scripture and not see the hand of mercy which actually saved them.
Those OF the world have wrath from God.
Those OF God have grace, mercy and peace and salvation and obtain faith from God and Christ.
1 Corinthians 7:25
Now concerning virgins I have no commandment of the Lord: yet I give my judgment, as one that hath obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful.

As is shown in the greetings and teachings from the apostles to the churches. Grace peace mercy be unto those in His church. But for those who are disobedient, they stumble over Christ, and have wrath, no grace, no mercy, there is no peace for the wicked, no salvation but only condemnation.

Peter the apostle says
6 Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture,

“Behold, I lay in Zion
A chief cornerstone, elect, precious,
And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame.”

7 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient,

“The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone,”

8 and

“A stone of stumbling
And a rock of offense.”

They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.

Jude King James Version (KJV)
1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:

2 Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied.

2 John 1-4King James Version (KJV)
1 The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;

2 For the truth's sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us for ever.

3 Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

4 I rejoiced greatly that I found of thy children walking in truth, as we have received a commandment from the Father.

Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

2 Timothy 1:2
To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

Ephesians 2:3-5King James Version (KJV)
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

Galatians 6:15-17King James Version (KJV)
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

17 From henceforth let no man trouble me: for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus.

2 Corinthians 4:1-6King James Version (KJV)
1 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;

2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.

6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Luke 1:50
And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation.
Luke 1:54
He hath helped his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy;
Luke 1:58
And her neighbours and her cousins heard how the Lord had shewed great mercy upon her; and they rejoiced with her.
Luke 1:72
To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

1 Corinthians 1King James Version (KJV)
1 Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,

2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:

3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

sdowney717 · Jul 24, 2017

DamianWarS said:
John uses kosmos often, in fact it is used in John more than any other book (57 times) Where it may be the word kosmos can be used contextually and may even refer to the redeemed, in John's gospel it doesn't. To suggest it does in John 3:16 seems desperate and presents the text as overly cryptic and inconsistent and I would suggest it is irresponsible.

Jesus is simply saying that the gospel is going to be preached throughout the entire world.
And that whoever believes will be saved, but that verse does not say why they believe in Christ.
The jews Jesus was speaking to hated the gentiles, thinking them all cursed of God, they were all of them unclean and wanted nothing to do with gentiles, Christ in what He says rebukes them by telling them God so loved the world that He sent Christ to be the savior of all mankind, not just the jewish nation.

Later in John 3, Christ tells us why some come to the light, it is only because their deeds were wrought in God, so elect, predestined, chosen fits there.

ViaCrucis · Jul 24, 2017

sdowney717 said:
Salvation is personal and individual and is only for those whom He called out from the darkness and into the light. Christ brought us forth as James says. This is only speaking about people who are of God who are not of the world.

Why not let Peter and Paul tell you the truth?
If you were saved, God called you as an individual to form His holy nation.
To even be a part of that, you had to be begotten again, according to HIS MERCY.

I think this demonstrates a significant difference in what is meant by "salvation" by those who use it. Salvation isn't solely, or even chiefly, "personal" and "individual". Salvation refers to the entire work of God in redeeming, saving, rescuing His creation. Salvation is objective and corporate; the individual is brought into the objective and corporate saving work of God through the Means of grace. That's why we are a holy nation, a people, etc--salvation is not chiefly the saving of individuals as individuals, salvation is the salvation of the world into which we are called, and brought into, by the grace and working of God upon us through His Means.

-CryptoLutheran

sdowney717 · Jul 24, 2017

ViaCrucis said:
I think this demonstrates a significant difference in what is meant by "salvation" by those who use it. Salvation isn't solely, or even chiefly, "personal" and "individual". Salvation refers to the entire work of God in redeeming, saving, rescuing His creation. Salvation is objective and corporate; the individual is brought into the objective and corporate saving work of God through the Means of grace. That's why we are a holy nation, a people, etc--salvation is not chiefly the saving of individuals as individuals, salvation is the salvation of the world into which we are called, and brought into, by the grace and working of God upon us through His Means.

-CryptoLutheran

You seem to not believe hell exists, and that unbelievers, not born of God, have no hell awaiting them.

What was lost is what Christ came to redeem, people, the lost sheep of Christ, not animals. Someday God will start with a fresh canvas, creating a new heaven and a new earth. The old one will be consumed, melting in a fiery heat. The earth was made to be INHABITED, and the purpose of the creation of the earth was for man.

What do you suppose fire does to ungodly men?
And this evil tainted heavens and earth, God will wipe them away, and they will vanish, heaven and earth will flee away from His face and they will not be found anywhere.

2 Peter 3:7
But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2 Peter 3:12
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.

11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?

Revelations 20
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.

Revelations 21
Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

The whole creation groans in expectation of the revealing of the sons of God, which will occur in the age of the resurrection. It is going to be transformed by a new creation in which dwells total righteousness, so anything that was of the old, tainted by evil, God will destroy. The timing of all the various events, millennium reign, then new heavens and earth is uncertain, but someday it is going to happen just as it says.

Just as believers are born again, and all things become new, the earth and heavens will be born again and all things will become NEW.

3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”

ViaCrucis · Jul 24, 2017

sdowney717 said:
You seem to not believe hell exists, and that unbelievers, not born of God, have no hell awaiting them.

Of course nothing I've said supports that assumption.

What was lost is what Christ came to redeem, people, the lost sheep of Christ, not animals. Someday God will start with a fresh canvas, creating a new heaven and a new earth. The old one will be consumed, melting in a fiery heat. The earth was made to be INHABITED, and the purpose of the creation of the earth was for man.

"For I am about to create new heavens
and a new earth;
the former things shall not be remembered
or come to mind.
But be glad and rejoice forever
in what I am creating;
for I am about to create Jerusalem as a joy,
and its people as a delight.
I will rejoice in Jerusalem,
and delight in my people;
no more shall the sound of weeping be heard in it,
or the cry of distress.
No more shall there be in it
an infant that lives but a few days,
or an old person who does not live out a lifetime;
for one who dies at a hundred years will be considered a youth,
and one who falls short of a hundred will be considered accursed.
They shall build houses and inhabit them;
they shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
They shall not build and another inhabit;
they shall not plant and another eat;
for like the days of a tree shall the days of my people be,
and my chosen shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
They shall not labor in vain,
or bear children for calamity;
for they shall be offspring blessed by the Lord—
and their descendants as well.
Before they call I will answer,
while they are yet speaking I will hear.
The wolf and the lamb shall feed together,
the lion shall eat straw like the ox;
but the serpent—its food shall be dust!
They shall not hurt or destroy
on all my holy mountain,
says the Lord." - Isaiah 65:17-25

"The wolf shall live with the lamb,
the leopard shall lie down with the kid,
the calf and the lion and the fatling together,
and a little child shall lead them.
The cow and the bear shall graze,
their young shall lie down together;
and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
The nursing child shall play over the hole of the asp,
and the weaned child shall put its hand on the adder’s den.
They will not hurt or destroy
on all my holy mountain;
for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord
as the waters cover the sea." - Isaiah 11:6-9

"I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory about to be revealed to us. For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the children of God; for the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and will obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. We know that the whole creation has been groaning in labor pains until now; and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly while we wait for adoption, the redemption of our bodies. For in hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what is seen? But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience." - Romans 8:18-25

What do you suppose fire does to ungodly men?
And this evil tainted heavens and earth, God will wipe them away, and they will vanish, heaven and earth will flee away from His face and they will not be found anywhere.

2 Peter 3:7
But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2 Peter 3:12
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.

When fire consumes impurities, all that is remaining is pure. So shall God wipe away injustice, evil, and all the wicked things which presently exist, and God shall make all things new.

11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?

Revelations 20
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.

Revelations 21
Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

The whole creation groans in expectation of the revealing of the sons of God, which will occur in the age of the resurrection. It is going to be transformed by a new creation in which dwells total righteousness, so anything that was of the old, tainted by evil, God will destroy. The timing of all the various events, millennium reign, then new heavens and earth is uncertain, but someday it is going to happen just as it says.

Just as believers are born again, and all things become new, the earth and heavens will be born again and all things will become NEW.

3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”

Correct. We look forward to the age to come, when God makes all things new. God is not throwing away His creation, God is saving it.

-CryptoLutheran

sdowney717 · Jul 24, 2017

ViaCrucis said:
Of course nothing I've said supports that assumption.

"For I am about to create new heavens
and a new earth;
the former things shall not be remembered
or come to mind.
But be glad and rejoice forever
in what I am creating;
for I am about to create Jerusalem as a joy,
and its people as a delight.
I will rejoice in Jerusalem,
and delight in my people;
no more shall the sound of weeping be heard in it,
or the cry of distress.
No more shall there be in it
an infant that lives but a few days,
or an old person who does not live out a lifetime;
for one who dies at a hundred years will be considered a youth,
and one who falls short of a hundred will be considered accursed.
They shall build houses and inhabit them;
they shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
They shall not build and another inhabit;
they shall not plant and another eat;
for like the days of a tree shall the days of my people be,
and my chosen shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
They shall not labor in vain,
or bear children for calamity;
for they shall be offspring blessed by the Lord—
and their descendants as well.
Before they call I will answer,
while they are yet speaking I will hear.
The wolf and the lamb shall feed together,
the lion shall eat straw like the ox;
but the serpent—its food shall be dust!
They shall not hurt or destroy
on all my holy mountain,
says the Lord." - Isaiah 65:17-25

"The wolf shall live with the lamb,
the leopard shall lie down with the kid,
the calf and the lion and the fatling together,
and a little child shall lead them.
The cow and the bear shall graze,
their young shall lie down together;
and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
The nursing child shall play over the hole of the asp,
and the weaned child shall put its hand on the adder’s den.
They will not hurt or destroy
on all my holy mountain;
for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord
as the waters cover the sea." - Isaiah 11:6-9

"I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory about to be revealed to us. For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the children of God; for the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and will obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. We know that the whole creation has been groaning in labor pains until now; and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly while we wait for adoption, the redemption of our bodies. For in hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what is seen? But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience." - Romans 8:18-25

When fire consumes impurities, all that is remaining is pure. So shall God wipe away injustice, evil, and all the wicked things which presently exist, and God shall make all things new.

Correct. We look forward to the age to come, when God makes all things new. God is not throwing away His creation, God is saving it.

-CryptoLutheran

Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved,

The current earth and heavens are going to dissolve, all the forests, animals, creatures, space, sun and moon, stars are going to be gone, even time will be dissolved.
God is throwing away the old to replace with the new, I don't see how anyone can read those scriptures and not comprehend this.
Hebrews 1
10 And:

“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
11 They will perish, but You remain;
And they will all grow old like a garment;
12 Like a cloak You will fold them up,
And they will be changed.
But You are the same,
And Your years will not fail.”

So we read the heavens and earth will perish, God changes them like clothes (raiment), takes off one set, the old, and puts on a new set. But God remains the same, only the creation is changed, and from scripture means dissolved, burn up down to elementary things. And God creates a new heavens and new earth, someday.

ViaCrucis · Jul 24, 2017

If God is throwing away His creation, then creation groans for nothing and has hope for nothing.

-CryptoLutheran

sdowney717 · Jul 24, 2017

ViaCrucis said:
If God is throwing away His creation, then creation groans for nothing and has hope for nothing.

-CryptoLutheran

God discarded the OC for the NC, it passed away fully completely.
In order to produce a crop the grain must die. Christ had to die to be glorified again, and this world must die to be glorified again as a new creation with new creatures. We ourselves, the old man is dead, the new man is alive, so will this creation be changed, it must die, pass away first to bring in the perfect.

John 12:23-25New King James Version (NKJV)
23 But Jesus answered them, saying, “The hour has come that the Son of Man should be glorified. 24 Most assuredly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it produces much grain. 25 He who loves his life will lose it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.

Adding in more thoughts of mine.
The creation was subjected to futility not willingly , but of NECESSITY, because of the fall in Eden. Futility because this creation will be dissolved, will be gone, nothing will last- entropy- it is breaking down, it has become temporary but with it's death will birth a new creation wherein dwells righteousness-perfection, a new earth, sort of like Eden restored, but it will never be as it was before the fall in Eden, and why should it, it will be much better than it was at the beginning having a glorious liberty. Free of evil, free of Satan, uncorrupted and incorruptible.

Romans 8:20-22New King James Version (NKJV)
20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now.

ViaCrucis · Jul 25, 2017

sdowney717 said:
God discarded the OC for the NC, it passed away fully completely.
In order to produce a crop the grain must die. Christ had to die to be glorified again, and this world must die to be glorified again as a new creation with new creatures. We ourselves, the old man is dead, the new man is alive, so will this creation be changed, it must die, pass away first to bring in the perfect.

Do you believe in the resurrection of the body?

-CryptoLutheran

sdowney717 · Jul 25, 2017

ViaCrucis said:
Do you believe in the resurrection of the body?

-CryptoLutheran

Of course, however that body is not going to be the same body as when it died.
Is the new spirit God creates in a man the same old spirit improved or is it a new one?

Ezekiel 36:26
I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?” 36 Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. 37 And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain—perhaps wheat or some other grain. 38 But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.

48 As was the man of dust, so also arethose who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also arethose who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the manof dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—

ViaCrucis · Jul 26, 2017

sdowney717 said:
Of course, however that body is not going to be the same body as when it died.
Is the new spirit God creates in a man the same old spirit improved or is it a new one?

Ezekiel 36:26
I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?” 36 Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. 37 And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain—perhaps wheat or some other grain. 38 But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.

48 As was the man of dust, so also arethose who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also arethose who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the manof dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—

Same as when it died? No, glorified. But is it the same body? Absolutely. It's a simple question really: Christ's tomb, occupied or empty?

The flesh conceived in Mary's womb is the flesh that was raised up Easter morning. The same with us. Romans 8:11

God's creation is not thrown away, it is restored, healed, and made new. Christ is risen.

-CryptoLutheran

sdowney717 · Jul 26, 2017

ViaCrucis said:
Same as when it died? No, glorified. But is it the same body? Absolutely. It's a simple question really: Christ's tomb, occupied or empty?

The flesh conceived in Mary's womb is the flesh that was raised up Easter morning. The same with us. Romans 8:11

God's creation is not thrown away, it is restored, healed, and made new. Christ is risen.

-CryptoLutheran

Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
And most of the dead, their bodies don't even exist anymore, it is not the same body that is ressurected. God gives to each a new body as He chooses, we shall all be changed.

Jehovah's witnesses also do not believe the earth will be destroyed-dissolved, they believe as you in this same earth restored.

John 3:16 and limited attonment.

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